Brexit (2 Viewers)

moathibby

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And the lexit perspective remains invisible despite it clearly being what Corbyn wants. He'd rather ride the coat tails of the xenophobic brexit than articulate what he sees as the actual benefits. I hovered around the lexit perspective pre-vote but ultimately it was the xenophobia of the leave campaign and seeing the people who it would put me on the same side as that turned me to remain. I still feel like I'd like to know more about the lexit case though. I do wonder if Corbyn's plan is to swoop in at the last minute to agree a deal with EU that keeps us more or less aligned with them but secures a few concessions (like the ability to nationalise some industries).
I think I mentioned earlier "The Left Case Against the EU" Costas Lapavitsas.I have bought my brother it for his Christmas,I have yet to read it myself, but here is the blurb on the back-"Many on the Left see the European Union as a fundamentally benign project with the potential to underpin ever greater cooperation and progress.If it has drifted rightward, the answer is to fight for reform from within.
In this iconoclastic polemic,economist Costas Lapavitsas demolishes this view.He contends that the EU's responce to the Eurozone crisis represents the ultimate transformation of the union into a neoliberal citadel that institutionally embeds austerity,privatisation,and wage cuts.Concurrently, the rise of German hegenomy has devided the EU into an unstable core and dependent peripheries.These related developments make the EU impervious to meaningful reform.The solution is therefore a direct challenge to the EUproject that stresses popular and national sovereignty as preconditions for true internationalist socialism."Like I say I haven't read it yet,but I am looking forward to coming up with more reasoned arguments after doing so.
 

moathibby

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No you didnae. You voted to leave Europe in an as yet undecided fashion. Lexit was never on the ballot, and Brexit in that form was never even a remote possibility given that Labour cannot get into government, even when the Tories look like rank amateurs.


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I voted out, in order to implement a Socialist responce.Which doesn't neccaserily mean that Labour has to get into power,but I'm not daft enought to realise that such a scenario would be an advantage.The socialist responce is to fight against austerity and everything that it stands for that relies more on the activity within the class as anything that might be initiated by Corbyn in Parliament.It means supporting strikes,direct action to end homelessness,to fight Universal Credit,for the NHS etc.It means a responce that calls for the free movement of peoples throughout both the EU and beyond,showing solidarity with the left movements throughout Europe including the Gilet Jeunes and fighting for a farer society, that necasserily means an ending to the EU.
 

aggie

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I voted out, in order to implement a Socialist responce.Which doesn't neccaserily mean that Labour has to get into power,but I'm not daft enought to realise that such a scenario would be an advantage.The socialist responce is to fight against austerity and everything that it stands for that relies more on the activity within the class as anything that might be initiated by Corbyn in Parliament.It means supporting strikes,direct action to end homelessness,to fight Universal Credit,for the NHS etc.It means a responce that calls for the free movement of peoples throughout both the EU and beyond,showing solidarity with the left movements throughout Europe including the Gilet Jeunes and fighting for a farer society, that necasserily means an ending to the EU.
Sounds coherent, good luck with that. Free movement of people throughout the EU and beyond, without free movement of capital? Nice one. Ending free movement, in order to re-implement the right kind of movement or something? Okay. And what does “fighting” universal credit actually entail for you? Telling everyone in the pub that you’re “definitely against it”?

NEWSFLASH: none of that stuff is remotely achievable without a sympathetic Labour government, some of it is not achievable at all. This sounds like a political program from the 30s, half a century at least before globalisation made it obsolete.


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Gareth

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Well guys, here's his position:

Corbyn: Brexit would go ahead even if Labour won snap election

Sure enough, he's going to go back to the EU and demand a renegotiation of the deal. Yep, you read that right. I'm sorry @Gareth , but the guy is either at it or he's a fuckin incompetent clown who couldn't lead a Brownie pack.
that title and the substance are a but different though are they not. yes he says they'd go back to try and renegotiate with the eu and he then says if the membership want a different option then that would be followed. bow u think he's trying too hard to do a blairite triangulation and I think he does have to come out, maybe after a full membership consultation that eases his democratic conscience. that said feckin Chuka and streeting wouldn't know tactics if it smashed them in the teeth. leveinesque tossers
 

Greenmachine

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May's deal is a compromise after 2 years of negotiation. This means we get some things we want and some things we don't. It's a damage limitation exercise which at least attempts to find a suitable outcome in a very bad situation where we don't end up that much worse off than we are at the moment. This however will not wash with (a) the idealistic Brexiteers who think we should get everything we want despite the fact that it is the UK who are choosing to leave and not the EU who are chucking us out, (b) the Labour Party who are stuck between a rock and a hard place because they have a leader who is pro-Brexit and because so many Labour voters in industrial areas voted to leave because they were taken in by the lies of the Farage Ukip right-wing little Englander Brexiteer mob who like all political cowards and charlatans offered easy solutions to what are very complicated problems in order to attain their desired outcome, (c) the SNP who want to use the chaos to further their cause of Scottish Independence (which I would now vote for in any second Scottish independence referendum), and the DUP who are shit scared of any arrangement which treats Northern Ireland differently from the rest of the UK and would bring their nightmare of a united Ireland closer.

May's deal will be voted down in parliament however. We will then have to go back to the EU and ask for Article 50 to be extended which they will allow because they don't want the UK to leave and if they think there will be another vote (which I think there will be) which may yet still keep the UK in the EU then they will not be too bothered by extra time being allowed. There will then have to be another vote. Personally I am not in favour of another vote despite being pro-EU because as a democrat I think we should respect and implement a democratic decision but the problem is the UK parliament is completely unable to implement our departure from the EU. If they cannot do it (and they can't) then it has to go back to the people to ask them if they still want to go ahead. If they come back with the same answer then we leave with no deal and all the horrendous implications that will entail.
 

Hussein_theHibee

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I think its alarming that the SNP are now calling for a peoples vote which has no mandate whatsoever, but not calling for an indyref2 which does have a mandate! As someone who votes SNP purely for the break of the UK state, I think their current stance is damaging them.
 

moathibby

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Sounds coherent, good luck with that. Free movement of people throughout the EU and beyond, without free movement of capital? Nice one. Ending free movement, in order to re-implement the right kind of movement or something? Okay. And what does “fighting” universal credit actually entail for you? Telling everyone in the pub that you’re “definitely against it”?

NEWSFLASH: none of that stuff is remotely achievable without a sympathetic Labour government, some of it is not achievable at all. This sounds like a political program from the 30s, half a century at least before globalisation made it obsolete.


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Maybe you hadn't noticed but we are living in a carbon copy of the 30's.
 

aggie

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Maybe you hadn't noticed but we are living in a carbon copy of the 30's.
Maybe you missed the word “globalisation”. We are not living in a carbon copy, in the most significant way. Globally networked capital was not even a possibility in the 30s. In fact, pre-80s forms of socialism are little more than ignorant posturing.


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moathibby

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Fighting Universal Credit takes a campaign of non implemetation up to and including strike action by staff,pickets outside offices,public showings of I daniel Blake and demonstrations on the streets,along with coordinated action inside both the Wesminster parliament,Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly.
 

moathibby

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Today the British State is as prominant as it ever was in 1930.Globalisation is just another name for International Capital.Trump pulls out of Syria,the stock market shits itself.A no deal Brexit happens, the stock market shits itself.Austerity in the 1930's came on the back of the wall street crash,which was only saved by the world wide war economy.Today the British economy is being kept afloat by arms sales and wars in the middle east.All that has happened is that China has supplanted Germany as the second biggest economy in the world.
 

Chris G Whyte

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I think its alarming that the SNP are now calling for a peoples vote which has no mandate whatsoever, but not calling for an indyref2 which does have a mandate! As someone who votes SNP purely for the break of the UK state, I think their current stance is damaging them.
I disagree, and largely because the position they're in is a little awkward if the question is purely one of independence.

The question, ultimately, needs to be asked like this:

X: I wish to leave the United Kingdom, and remain in the European Union.
X: I wish to leave the European Union, and remain in the United Kingdom.

That's it. That's the question. The Scottish Parliament has recently had it's laughably weak powers illustrated, and its democracy has been altered with some recent law removals by Westminster. The problem is that a campaign can't be built until we know what Brexit is going to look like, because it gives unionists (who, obviously, aren't interested in Scotland) a free range, via the rigged coverage, to say whatever they like in order to confuse the issue and tell lies.
Once we know what Brexit will look like, then the campaign can be made and it'll be impossible to argue that sticking with the English government is the best economic option.
 

Jack

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Just to keep this up-to-date.

Prime Minister Theresa May has lost an MPs’ vote on her Brexit deal by 230 votes - the largest defeat for a sitting government in history.

Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has tabled a vote of no confidence in the government, which could trigger a general election.

MPs voted by 432 votes to 202 to reject the deal, which sets out the terms of Britain's exit from the EU on 29 March.

Just how the #### do these Tory bastards stay in government?

I'm not sure Labour will win the vote of no confidence surprisingly.
 

bigmanandy

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Salmond left, Cameron left, surely the worst prime minister ever will do the right thing, she’s awful, she was almost in denial after the vote acting like it was everybody else’s fault.
 
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moathibby

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I disagree, and largely because the position they're in is a little awkward if the question is purely one of independence.

The question, ultimately, needs to be asked like this:

X: I wish to leave the United Kingdom, and remain in the European Union.
X: I wish to leave the European Union, and remain in the United Kingdom.

That's it. That's the question. The Scottish Parliament has recently had it's laughably weak powers illustrated, and its democracy has been altered with some recent law removals by Westminster. The problem is that a campaign can't be built until we know what Brexit is going to look like, because it gives unionists (who, obviously, aren't interested in Scotland) a free range, via the rigged coverage, to say whatever they like in order to confuse the issue and tell lies.
Once we know what Brexit will look like, then the campaign can be made and it'll be impossible to argue that sticking with the English government is the best economic option.
I wish to leave Europe and leave the United Kingdom, what vote do I get none?How democratic is that?
 

moathibby

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Corbyn should be insisting all those tories who voted against May should vote for no confidence otherwise they are hypocrits.
 

southfieldhibby

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Corbyn wasting time. No chance brexit torys and DUP maniacs back his motion.
 

Sir Shrink

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Corbyn wasting time. No chance brexit torys and DUP maniacs back his motion.
And put their jobs at risk?

Not a chance.

More chance of Joe getting his next set of tyres at Farmer Autocare.
 
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bigmanandy

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May will win confidence vote, she should be resigning.

DUP still think we’re going to get a ‘better deal’
 
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Sir Shrink

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