Brexit (2 Viewers)

Gareth

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Have you actually watched his pathetic responses to May's statements in the House of Commons? He fails every time to land a punch. It's pretty embarrassing. More so than Labour continues with this tongue tied buffoon as it's leader. If Labour wants to give us a hard left leader then at least give us one who has a little bit of competence. Even John McDonnell must be contemplating a challenge.
Ok so you don't like or rate him, but in terms of the process and the shenanigans what should he/they have done? Incidentally in terms of performance I think we need a real rethink about how parliament operates, ever since Blair PMs have never answered questions and got away with it. When was the last leader of the opposition who managed to corner a PM in a way that produced an actual response? Thats what I've witnessed in Corbyns interventions, he challenges May, she avoids, he challenges again, she avoids and then her party all start faux cheering to help her off the hook. End point is nobody is better informed and the childlike behaviour continues.
 

aggie

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what are you suggesting he should have done
Take a fcukin position, and try and force her hand. Back a referendum, for instance. Incite the public with everything you've got. I'd actually have more respect for him if he just said "nothing I can do, folks", and sat back on his bench along with the rest of us to watch the Tories crash the country. The SNP and Scottish Greens have literally been arguing and working for an outcome that weakens their own agenda, but unfortunately they are powerless to intervene. Somebody needs to start appealing across the house to ANY FUCKIN GROWN UPS LEFT IN THE ROOM to put aside their own party interests and do SOMETHING before it's too fuckin late. Even if it means failure - But ffs, don't just sit there impotently. I mean, "no confidence in May" - was that meant to be dramatic or something? At least try and bring down the government.

Have you noticed "no deal" slowly entering the narrative as an actual viable proposition? And do you deny that, given a free vote, that's what Corbyn really wants?

and when?
RIGHT FUCKIN NOW.
 
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Gareth

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Take a fcukin position, and try and force her hand. Back a referendum, for instance. Incite the public with everything you've got. I'd actually have more respect for him if he just said "nothing I can do, folks", and sat back on his bench along with the rest of us to watch the Tories crash the country.
You seem to be accusing him of the latter and then suggesting that thats what he should be doing, so why you so pissed off. Re forcing her hand, to do what and how. A no confidence motion? As I said that earlier risked uniting the Tories, at which point there really is little that can be done, except by the DUP.

The SNP and Scottish Greens have literally been arguing and working for an outcome that weakens their own agenda, but unfortunately they are powerless to intervene. Somebody needs to start appealing across the house to ANY FUCKIN GROWN UPS LEFT IN THE ROOM to put aside their own party interests and do SOMETHING before it's too fuckin late. Even if it means failure - But ffs, don't just sit there impotently. I mean, "no confidence in May" - was that meant to be dramatic or something? At least try and bring down the government.
I think you are being a little naive here Aggie if you don't mind me saying so. The SNP are also playing politics with this, they clearly don't want a general election and want to force their preferred option onto Corbyn et al. And they also came to the 2nd vote quite late on, every time they were asked about it they said something about what happens if the same outcome occurs, what about Scotland then, without actually saying aye or nut. There are good arguments against a 2nd referendum but they also need to keep their coalition together, especially at a time when the Tories are imploding. I'm not sure what would work best but i'm not sure the JUST DO SOMETHING approach is strategically wise if it strengthens the Tories and weakens your own side,

Have you noticed "no deal" slowly entering the narrative as an actual viable proposition? And do you deny that, given a free vote, that's what Corbyn really wants?
No deal was always in the narrative, 'no deal is better than a bad deal' etc. May is obviously now using it as a means of scaring people into acquiescence. But on the latter, I've seen nothing to suggest Corbyn wants no deal, nothing at all. I think you are seeing what you want to see here Aggie.

That all said, I do thinks its now come to a head and the time for forcing the issue is here. Where that takes us who knows but we certainly need rid of this shower by any means necessary
 

aggie

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That all said, I do thinks its now come to a head and the time for forcing the issue is here. Where that takes us who knows but we certainly need rid of this shower by any means necessary
You're right, Gareth (as ever), I guess it boils down to me feeling incredibly angry that the endgame is here, now, but everyone in parliament seems intent on playing the highest stakes game of chicken in history.

To be honest I have absolutely no idea what Mrs May actually believes and whether there is actually any intelligence behind any of the actions she is taking, or whether it is blind stoicism. I mean, this looks like total zombie stuff.
Whilst with Jeremy Corbyn, it's perhaps more accurate to say that I have no idea what he really believes because he seems incapable of actually articulating it unambiguously for some reason. I can also see that he is playing a possibly clever but also very dangerous tactical game.

Okay, here's a different question: do you think Corbyn is actually prepared to accept either May's deal or No Deal as being the price of potentially gaining power? And do you yourself think that's a price worth paying, given that the smart money says that Corbyn couldn't even win a GE tomorrow?
 
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Gareth

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Okay, here's a different question: do you think Corbyn is actually prepared to accept either May's deal or No Deal as being the price of potentially gaining power? And do you yourself think that's a price worth paying, given that the smart money says that Corbyn couldn't even win a GE tomorrow?
Thats an absolutely brutal question to ask. Would not got a clue suffice? Ok, I don't think Corbyn wants either of those outcomes, but that no deal would possibly be preferable to Mays to him. Re the issue power, I'd guess he's a bit conflicted on this (as am I). I think a Corbyn led Government could do some really good things in a no deal outcome, but obviously there are loads of imponderables there re the impacts of such an outcome. I think under May's deal he'd have both hands tied, even more so that with continued membership. I do genuinely believe that Corbyn is unlike any other leader of the past 30-40 years in that power is the means to an end, or set of ends, rather than an end in itself and I find that refreshing, even though he continues not to get Scotland.
 
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aggie

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Thats an absolutely brutal question to ask. Would not got a clue suffice? Ok, I don't think Corbyn wants either of those outcomes, but that no deal would possibly be preferable to Mays to him. Re the issue power, I'd guess he's a bit conflicted on this (as am I). I think a Corbyn led Government could do some really good things in a no deal outcome, but obviously there are loads of imponderables there re the impacts of such an outcome. I think under May's deal he'd have both hands tied, even more so that with continued membership. I do genuinely believe that Corbyn is unlike any other leader of the past 30-40 years in that power is the means to an end, or set of ends, rather than an end in itself and I find that refreshing, even though he continues not to get Scotland.
I agree, and I suspect that's pretty close to the truth of Corbyn's thinking. It's almost impossible to know the ramifications, which doesn't mean I don't accept they could turn out to be positive.

The thing is, it's the equivalent of putting it all on red, but your chips represent the very future of millions of ordinary punters. If red comes up, happy days. But if it turns out to be black, that consigns a helluva lot of people to a negative fate of unknown magnitude. Can JC or anyone else really justify going all-in on this?
 

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I guess you could put it that way. It was the one vote I've had in my life where I was genuinely not sure how to vote until the last minute, and even then the pencil hovered above the ballot paper for a bit. Had to balance my belief that the EU is fundamentally a set of neoliberal institutions and the xenophobia of the leave campaign. I do wonder if things would have been different if Tony Benn and/or Bob Crow had still been around to lead a left leave campaign, but its a sad reality that the lexit perspective was almost invisible.
And the lexit perspective remains invisible despite it clearly being what Corbyn wants. He'd rather ride the coat tails of the xenophobic brexit than articulate what he sees as the actual benefits. I hovered around the lexit perspective pre-vote but ultimately it was the xenophobia of the leave campaign and seeing the people who it would put me on the same side as that turned me to remain. I still feel like I'd like to know more about the lexit case though. I do wonder if Corbyn's plan is to swoop in at the last minute to agree a deal with EU that keeps us more or less aligned with them but secures a few concessions (like the ability to nationalise some industries).
 

Gareth

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I agree, and I suspect that's pretty close to the truth of Corbyn's thinking. It's almost impossible to know the ramifications, which doesn't mean I don't accept they could turn out to be positive.

The thing is, it's the equivalent of putting it all on red, but your chips represent the very future of millions of ordinary punters. If red comes up, happy days. But if it turns out to be black, that consigns a helluva lot of people to a negative fate of unknown magnitude. Can JC or anyone else really justify going all-in on this?
I don't disagree, though I also think the misery of millions of people now has to be considered. I think many people voted leave at least partly on the basis that things couldn't be any worse for them, and maybe they're right.
 

Gareth

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And the lexit perspective remains invisible despite it clearly being what Corbyn wants. He'd rather ride the coat tails of the xenophobic brexit than articulate what he sees as the actual benefits. I hovered around the lexit perspective pre-vote but ultimately it was the xenophobia of the leave campaign and seeing the people who it would put me on the same side as that turned me to remain. I still feel like I'd like to know more about the lexit case though. I do wonder if Corbyn's plan is to swoop in at the last minute to agree a deal with EU that keeps us more or less aligned with them but secures a few concessions (like the ability to nationalise some industries).
I was the same re the vote and the farage's of the world pushed me towards remain, but I also think there was pretty strong xenophobia on the remain side, whether Blair advocating immigration restrictions in order to remain or May's hostile environment.
re Lexit Costas lapavitsas is quite interesting.
Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour vs. the Single Market

The Left Case Against the EU by Costas Lapavitsas – Brave New Europe
 

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aggie

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I don't disagree, though I also think the misery of millions of people now has to be considered. I think many people voted leave at least partly on the basis that things couldn't be any worse for them, and maybe they're right.
Innit. And I'm sure I'm not the only one in whom lives a wee voice saying "burn it all down". But it's a really dangerous game to play.
 

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Ok so you don't like or rate him, but in terms of the process and the shenanigans what should he/they have done? Incidentally in terms of performance I think we need a real rethink about how parliament operates, ever since Blair PMs have never answered questions and got away with it. When was the last leader of the opposition who managed to corner a PM in a way that produced an actual response? Thats what I've witnessed in Corbyns interventions, he challenges May, she avoids, he challenges again, she avoids and then her party all start faux cheering to help her off the hook. End point is nobody is better informed and the childlike behaviour continues.
He has yet to outline a credible and serious position on all of this. I totally get that he doesn't want to alienate leave constituencies in the north. However, it's time to make a stand on whatever he believes in. He says he's changed the Labour Party so it now much more reflects the opinions of its membership. What bollocks. If that was the case then he would be much more remain and indeed would be campaigning for a second referendum.
 

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The SNP are also playing politics with this, they clearly don't want a general election and want to force their preferred option onto Corbyn et al.
You think? I reckon they do, and polls suggest they'd take most of the seats they lost back. Which is a factor in the government not calling one when every commons vote counts. Would embolden The SNP to claim a mandate for independence even further.
 

Gareth

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You think? I reckon they do, and polls suggest they'd take most of the seats they lost back. Which is a factor in the government not calling one when every commons vote counts. Would embolden The SNP to claim a mandate for independence even further.
Haven't seen any polls, which are you referring to? I think the SNP fear that an election would coalesce around the two old camps and they'd be squeezed. I think they feel they have little to win from an election at this point and everything to gain from a Westminster shambles.
 

Gareth

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He has yet to outline a credible and serious position on all of this. I totally get that he doesn't want to alienate leave constituencies in the north. However, it's time to make a stand on whatever he believes in. He says he's changed the Labour Party so it now much more reflects the opinions of its membership. What bollocks. If that was the case then he would be much more remain and indeed would be campaigning for a second referendum.
His position seems quite serious, move over cos you're messing everything up. The tactics of how to do that are another matter. Now I agree the time has arrived to try to put this shower to the sword, I'm not sure I'm clear on the most sensible way of doing it though, its certainly not clear to me that a rehashed Uk wide better together alliance makes great sense.
On the latter point, wasn't your view, along with many who have criticised Corbyn for years, that he has to take account of Labour voters as well as members, so isn't that what he's doing here?
 

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Haven't seen any polls, which are you referring to? I think the SNP fear that an election would coalesce around the two old camps and they'd be squeezed. I think they feel they have little to win from an election at this point and everything to gain from a Westminster shambles.
Recent poll had them up to around 40 seats I think


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aggie

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He has yet to outline a credible and serious position on all of this. I totally get that he doesn't want to alienate leave constituencies in the north. However, it's time to make a stand on whatever he believes in. He says he's changed the Labour Party so it now much more reflects the opinions of its membership. What bollocks. If that was the case then he would be much more remain and indeed would be campaigning for a second referendum.
His position seems quite serious, move over cos you're messing everything up. The tactics of how to do that are another matter. Now I agree the time has arrived to try to put this shower to the sword, I'm not sure I'm clear on the most sensible way of doing it though, its certainly not clear to me that a rehashed Uk wide better together alliance makes great sense.
On the latter point, wasn't your view, along with many who have criticised Corbyn for years, that he has to take account of Labour voters as well as members, so isn't that what he's doing here?
Well guys, here's his position:

Corbyn: Brexit would go ahead even if Labour won snap election

Sure enough, he's going to go back to the EU and demand a renegotiation of the deal. Yep, you read that right. I'm sorry @Gareth , but the guy is either at it or he's a fuckin incompetent clown who couldn't lead a Brownie pack.
 
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Chris G Whyte

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I'm sorry @Gareth , but the guy is either at it or he's a fuckin incompetent clown who couldn't lead a Brownie pack.
I'm, perhaps surprisingly, always going to like Jeremy Corbyn; my own stance on his approach is that he's trying to manage a completely unmanageable party that's riddled with two entirely different sets of views. There are those like him who are socialists, under everything, and there's the 'New Labour' group that are right-wing Conservatives that stand in Labour areas where only Labour will win. He can't win with a group so diversely different, just as the current Prime Minister deals with, and their joined approach to effectively remove any Scottish democracy is what's going to shove our independence into reality come Brexit.

I even think Corbyn both understands, and is okay, with that development.
 
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moathibby

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I guess you could put it that way. It was the one vote I've had in my life where I was genuinely not sure how to vote until the last minute, and even then the pencil hovered above the ballot paper for a bit. Had to balance my belief that the EU is fundamentally a set of neoliberal institutions and the xenophobia of the leave campaign. I do wonder if things would have been different if Tony Benn and/or Bob Crow had still been around to lead a left leave campaign, but its a sad reality that the lexit perspective was almost invisible.
I voted for Lexit,and I would do again.
 

aggie

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I voted for Lexit,and I would do again.
No you didnae. You voted to leave Europe in an as yet undecided fashion. Lexit was never on the ballot, and Brexit in that form was never even a remote possibility given that Labour cannot get into government, even when the Tories look like rank amateurs.


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