Ukraine.

[moathibby]

The young boys tied to benches all day in straight jacket contraptions we saw on the news was all the fault of the Soviet Union?

 

[moathibby]

It's taken 30 years for the Ukraine to rectify the situation?

 

[moathibby]

https://www.co.uk/news/disability-62226636

 

[Jack]

Whataboutary at it's best.

Hardly. The question I was suggesting was had things changed for the worse in the 30 years since the Soviet Union? A point of time and administration of your own choosing.

How do other Soviet Block countries compare?

Is the treatment of disabled people perhaps part of the Soviet Block mindset?

Have things improved or got worse in all these countries?

Any whatabootery I'd suggest is on you deflecting from the Russian atrocities by somehow suggesting the Ukrainians deserve what they're getting because of the way they treat their disabled people.

 

[moathibby]

You are puting words in my mouth.First of all I have never supported the Soviet Union.Secondly I have never said I want the atrocities that have happened in the Ukraine to continue.I have personally demonstrated my opposition to this war-have you?But to try and pretend or sweep under the carpet the appaling way the Ukrainians treat their disabled people because it dosn't fit in with the narrative of 'Good old Ukraine' is in my eyes unforgiveable.This is a country some are touting to join the EU.

 

[Hammi]

You are puting words in my mouth.First of all I have never supported the Soviet Union.Secondly I have never said I want the atrocities that have happened in the Ukraine to continue.I have personally demonstrated my opposition to this war-have you?But to try and pretend or sweep under the carpet the appaling way the Ukrainians treat their disabled people because it dosn't fit in with the narrative of 'Good old Ukraine' is in my eyes unforgiveable.This is a country some are touting to join the EU.

Don't think anybody is sweeping anything under the carpet.
But right now they're being bombarded by a country with a far worse record than them.

I support Ukraine.

They can deal with their issues down the road if they get to join the EU. If there's anything left, disabled or not.

 

[Jack]

You are puting words in my mouth.First of all I have never supported the Soviet Union.Secondly I have never said I want the atrocities that have happened in the Ukraine to continue.I have personally demonstrated my opposition to this war-have you?But to try and pretend or sweep under the carpet the appaling way the Ukrainians treat their disabled people because it dosn't fit in with the narrative of 'Good old Ukraine' is in my eyes unforgiveable.This is a country some are touting to join the EU.

Nobody is sweeping anything under the carpet.

You say Ukraine treats their disabled people terribly but nothing else to say why. You were asked questions as to how this compares to what it was like in Soviet times (your reference) and how their track record compares to similar countries with similar histories.

I never thought the former Soviet Block countries had a good record for looking after the disabled.

Maybe, as well as telling how Ukraine treats their disabled badly, you could tell us why you think Ukraine deserves a special mention among its comparator countries.

 

[Beagle]

I saw the story on the BBC News tonight. I’d wager that quite a few countries have as bad a record on how they treat their disabled citizens but it’s one of those things the general public don’t get beamed into their living rooms.
What struck me about the story though was it was presented as a BBC investigation. On a side of a country currently in a war situation with it’s more powerful neighbour, where we (NATO and western nations in general) are supporting them against aggression. Of all the countries in the world, why shine that spotlight on Ukraine at this particular moment? Who decided this story should be released and why?
This isn’t to excuse those involved in the facts of the story itself. Merely a concern about the timing of a negative view of that country in particular.

 

[Rocky]

I saw the story on the BBC News tonight. I’d wager that quite a few countries have as bad a record on how they treat their disabled citizens but it’s one of those things the general public don’t get beamed into their living rooms.
What struck me about the story though was it was presented as a BBC investigation. On a side of a country currently in a war situation with it’s more powerful neighbour, where we (NATO and western nations in general) are supporting them against aggression. Of all the countries in the world, why shine that spotlight on Ukraine at this particular moment? Who decided this story should be released and why?
This isn’t to excuse those involved in the facts of the story itself. Merely a concern about the timing of a negative view of that country in particular.

I expect it's largely because journalists report on stories they find. There's a lot of journos in Ukraine just now so it's no surprise they've happened upon this story and naturally you'd expect them to report it. I agree they're probably not the worst in this regard though so ideally it'd trigger a follow up investigation into other countries too.

 

[Beagle]

I expect it's largely because journalists report on stories they find. There's a lot of journos in Ukraine just now so it's no surprise they've happened upon this story and naturally you'd expect them to report it. I agree they're probably not the worst in this regard though so ideally it'd trigger a follow up investigation into other countries too.

I’ve no problem with journalists doing their job if that’s how the story came to be highlighted and it’s an awful situation all round. My unease is more with; why now? Why Ukraine when most of the world is ‘on their side’? I’m wondering what the bigger picture is when the british media are bringing a negative viewpoint to a country that the west is largely supporting.

 

[Rocky]

I’ve no problem with journalists doing their job if that’s how the story came to be highlighted and it’s an awful situation all round. My unease is more with; why now? Why Ukraine when most of the world is ‘on their side’? I’m wondering what the bigger picture is when the british media are bringing a negative viewpoint to a country that the west is largely supporting.

These journalists will be traipsing round Ukraine looking for "human interest" stories, eg:


In the course of doing so it's not really a surprise that they've discovered the story about the treatment of disabled people. It would be more of a concern if they then hushed it up to avoid negative reporting of the "good guys" in the war. That would essentially be propaganda by omission.

 

[Beagle]

These journalists will be traipsing round Ukraine looking for "human interest" stories, eg:


In the course of doing so it's not really a surprise that they've discovered the story about the treatment of disabled people. It would be more of a concern if they then hushed it up to avoid negative reporting of the "good guys" in the war. That would essentially be propaganda by omission.

It’s all propaganda one way or the other. The BBC may be doing what it should do with impartiality, I’m just surprised that they were ‘allowed’ to broadcast it in the current climate.

 

[moathibby]

Nobody is sweeping anything under the carpet.

You say Ukraine treats their disabled people terribly but nothing else to say why. You were asked questions as to how this compares to what it was like in Soviet times (your reference) and how their track record compares to similar countries with similar histories.

I never thought the former Soviet Block countries had a good record for looking after the disabled.

Maybe, as well as telling how Ukraine treats their disabled badly, you could tell us why you think Ukraine deserves a special mention among its comparator countries.

Forgive me if I'm wrong but this post is titled 'Ukraine' is it not? If you want to start a thread called 'Roumania's appalling treatment of it's disabled' go for it.

 

[moathibby]

It’s all propaganda one way or the other. The BBC may be doing what it should do with impartiality, I’m just surprised that they were ‘allowed’ to broadcast it in the current climate.

So now the BBC are lying but we take it they tell the truth about the war all this time?Good when it suits the narrative bad when it doesn't.

 

[Beagle]

So now the BBC are lying but we take it they tell the truth about the war all this time?Good when it suits the narrative bad when it doesn't.

The western media will print/broadcast what they and the government want us to read/hear. ‘‘Twas ever thus. Remember that my enemy’s enemy is my friend.

 

[Jack]

Forgive me if I'm wrong but this post is titled 'Ukraine' is it not? If you want to start a thread called 'Roumania's appalling treatment of it's disabled' go for it.

So you've no context then?

 

[jetsam1]

It is just the awful horrible Eastern Europeans being awful, horrible Eastern Europeans. As opposed to awful, horrible Western Europeans being awful, horrible Western Europeans.

Eastern Europe don't vote Socialist which is the greatest crime. What about the DWP in the UK then? UC.

 

[Davy]

Muscovites are 87.5 times less likely to be killed at the front than Dagestanis.
275 times less likely than Buryats and
350 times less likely than Tuvans. Again showing the disparity or recruitment in poorer areas.

RF managed to shoot down their own incoming attack helicopter,the second time they have downed one of their own aircraft

Another couple of ammo dumps blown up today.

A defective batch of St Perersburg made anti aircraft missiles will not destroy HMARS due to llack of suitable software from Germany and Japan.

Germany who are often accused of slowing down weapons to Ukraine have approved the sale of over 100 portable PanzarHaubitz2000 howitzers to Ukraine

The most advanced Iris T air defence systems will soon be defending Ukraine

USA state they will react swiftly if Russia tries to annexe Ukraine

Teo Turkish frigates entered the Black sea port at Odesa hopefully to ensure movement of grain ships

Russia and Iran agree on repair, supply and maintenance of Aircraft equipment

Israel say they will strike Iran to stop any building of Nuclear weapons

Russia are likely trying to grab as much territory as they can I the next eight weeks as it will be difficult for ground movement when winter arrives..UF will also likely intensify attacks on Kheraon

Russia made some small gains in the East.and also continue to bomb civilian infrastructure through out the front lines

US carrier Ronald Reagan heading to China sea as a result of recent increased tensions

 

[GORDONSMITH7]

Muscovites are 87.5 times less likely to be killed at the front than Dagestanis.
275 times less likely than Buryats and
350 times less likely than Tuvans. Again showing the disparity or recruitment in poorer areas.

RF managed to shoot down their own incoming attack helicopter,the second time they have downed one of their own aircraft

Another couple of ammo dumps blown up today.

A defective batch of St Perersburg made anti aircraft missiles will not destroy HMARS due to llack of suitable software from Germany and Japan.

Germany who are often accused of slowing down weapons to Ukraine have approved the sale of over 100 portable PanzarHaubitz2000 howitzers to Ukraine

The most advanced Iris T air defence systems will soon be defending Ukraine

USA state they will react swiftly if Russia tries to annexe Ukraine

Teo Turkish frigates entered the Black sea port at Odesa hopefully to ensure movement of grain ships

Russia and Iran agree on repair, supply and maintenance of Aircraft equipment

Israel say they will strike Iran to stop any building of Nuclear weapons

Russia are likely trying to grab as much territory as they can I the next eight weeks as it will be difficult for ground movement when winter arrives..UF will also likely intensify attacks on Kheraon

Russia made some small gains in the East.and also continue to bomb civilian infrastructure through out the front lines

US carrier Ronald Reagan heading to China sea as a result of recent increased tensions

Propaganda is sofictcated by both Russia and Ukraine to an art. I can understand your position by getting sucked into this mate.
Never the less your analysis, in reality gives some folk a wee glow, it is as accurate as the stuff being pumped out by Russia.
Before you repeat the stuff that makes thumbs uppers comfortable.
Please read the analysis that I posted by Socialist Appeal, then give me your opinion about US, NATO, EU support for Ukraine.

By the way I thought that the repulsive visions of tortured disabled kids, here there or anywhere, comments by absolute no mark dafties, using the what about elswhere, why now, not the right time when 'our Nato, the West' are supporting Ukraine' are less than pathetic.
I would also refer you as I'm doing to Davy to read that article about what is actually going on before you ping pong non analysis.
Though written a few weeks ago, today exemplified the dicotemy, that NATO, EU , Capitalist system minimal leveĺs of Russian Oil, Gas imports was a pathetic U turn. Business is business after all.

As to the new EU, read US position on China, well that's just bizarre covered in the article too.

Co-funded by the European Union, the Pelješac bridge, which formally launched on Tuesday, stretches between Komarna on the mainland and Brijesta on the peninsula of Pelješac, providing easier access to popular tourist spot Dubrovnik.8 hours ago.

Hold on .....built by China.

EU new bravado regading China is not only dim witted but contradicted in action.

BIG G

 

[Beagle]

Propaganda is sofictcated by both Russia and Ukraine to an art. I can understand your position by getting sucked into this mate.
Never the less your analysis, in reality gives some folk a wee glow, it is as accurate as the stuff being pumped out by Russia.
Before you repeat the stuff that makes thumbs uppers comfortable.
Please read the analysis that I posted by Socialist Appeal, then give me your opinion about US, NATO, EU support for Ukraine.

By the way I thought that the repulsive visions of tortured disabled kids, here there or anywhere, comments by absolute no mark dafties, using the what about elswhere, why now, not the right time when 'our Nato, the West' are supporting Ukraine' are less than pathetic.
I would also refer you as I'm doing to Davy to read that article about what is actually going on before you ping pong non analysis.
Though written a few weeks ago, today exemplified the dicotemy, that NATO, EU , Capitalist system minimal leveĺs of Russian Oil, Gas imports was a pathetic U turn. Business is business after all.

As to the new EU, read US position on China, well that's just bizarre covered in the article too.

Co-funded by the European Union, the Pelješac bridge, which formally launched on Tuesday, stretches between Komarna on the mainland and Brijesta on the peninsula of Pelješac, providing easier access to popular tourist spot Dubrovnik.8 hours ago.

Hold on .....built by China.

EU new bravado regading China is not only dim witted but contradicted in action.

BIG G

I assume your ‘no mark dafties’ insight is directed at me. I wasn’t taking sides by what I said, I was just pondering the timing of the uk media pumping out a negative story on a country that is regarded as requiring the support of the west.

 

[Jack]

I assume your ‘no mark dafties’ insight is directed at me. I wasn’t taking sides by what I said, I was just pondering the timing of the uk media pumping out a negative story on a country that is regarded as requiring the support of the west.

Aye, unless authorised by the enlightened Socialist Appeal any or all comments are made by no mark dafties influenced by dark side of the msm.

Er, that's despite the fact we were questioning the context of a story that had appeared on the darkest of the dark side (according the Socialist Bible) that is the BBC!

 

[paigntonhibby]

Propaganda is sofictcated by both Russia and Ukraine to an art. I can understand your position by getting sucked into this mate.
Never the less your analysis, in reality gives some folk a wee glow, it is as accurate as the stuff being pumped out by Russia.
Before you repeat the stuff that makes thumbs uppers comfortable.
Please read the analysis that I posted by Socialist Appeal, then give me your opinion about US, NATO, EU support for Ukraine.

By the way I thought that the repulsive visions of tortured disabled kids, here there or anywhere, comments by absolute no mark dafties, using the what about elswhere, why now, not the right time when 'our Nato, the West' are supporting Ukraine' are less than pathetic.
I would also refer you as I'm doing to Davy to read that article about what is actually going on before you ping pong non analysis.
Though written a few weeks ago, today exemplified the dicotemy, that NATO, EU , Capitalist system minimal leveĺs of Russian Oil, Gas imports was a pathetic U turn. Business is business after all.

As to the new EU, read US position on China, well that's just bizarre covered in the article too.

Co-funded by the European Union, the Pelješac bridge, which formally launched on Tuesday, stretches between Komarna on the mainland and Brijesta on the peninsula of Pelješac, providing easier access to popular tourist spot Dubrovnik.8 hours ago.

Hold on .....built by China.

EU new bravado regading China is not only dim witted but contradicted in action.

BIG G

Gordon you seem to believe EVERYTHING printed in your socialist rags while decrying folk that believe ANYTHING from other news systems, I'm pretty sure there are truths and propaganda coming from both sides.
As for your no mark comment the treatment of those kids in Ukraine was tragic as it probably was/is in all communist block countries.
The mistreatment of the unfortunate is not restricted to Ukraine, an investigation was started in 2015 to look at the mistreatment of kids in children's homes in Scotland

 

[Green tinted specs]

That's the beauty of the ignore button

 

[GORDONSMITH7]

Your absolutely correct Tony about the treatment of children in many, many countries. Whether the Worldwide industrial raping of kids by Catholic priests over many decades or treatment of thousands of Indigenous youngsters, all with the sanctimonious nod and connivance of those representing God on earth.
The pathetic apologies, with crocodile tears by the Pope, the governors of Edinburgh Academy or politicians whose remit is child protection are interchangeable and not worth a jot to millions of damaged kids and adults.
As to Ukraine, I have absolutely no doubt that if under different circumstances Hibs had played Football Club Zenit back in 2005 in the EUFA Cup that the same group of Hibernian Supporters would have visited a St. Petersburg orphanage with gifts and my direct debit for years would have been in the name of Zenitkids.
The generosity of ordinary folk and sterling work by heroic individuals in my eyes, tempers my unoquivical hatred and loathing of the aforementioned gangsters.
The reduction of this scourge of mankind, to a conspiracy theory or as Moaty has said , good guys, bad guys is not only daft but also disingenuous.

BIG G

 

[Ryan69]

Don't think anybody is sweeping anything under the carpet.
But right now they're being bombarded by a country with a far worse record than them.

I support Ukraine.

They can deal with their issues down the road if they get to join the EU. If there's anything left, disabled or not.

You support the current thing you mean.

 

[GORDONSMITH7]

Gordon you seem to believe EVERYTHING printed in your socialist rags while decrying folk that believe ANYTHING from other news systems, I'm pretty sure there are truths and propaganda coming from both sides.
As for your no mark comment the treatment of those kids in Ukraine was tragic as it probably was/is in all communist block countries.
The mistreatment of the unfortunate is not restricted to Ukraine, an investigation was started in 2015 to look at the mistreatment of kids in children's homes in Scotland

Can you highlight ANYTHING that you disagree with in the above article in Socialist Appeal regarding the US, EU and NATO and their opposing positions and manouverings regarding Ukraine and China. In fact I would welcome any CRITICISM of it by any BOUNCER particularly some of the critics above, who I suspect have neither read it before the usual belly rumbling and feet stamping and wishing that this reality will just go away.

BIG G

 

[Jack]

Can you highlight ANYTHING that you disagree with in the above article in Socialist Appeal regarding the US, EU and NATO and their opposing positions and manouverings regarding Ukraine and China. In fact I would welcome any CRITICISM of it by any BOUNCER particularly some of the critics above, who I suspect have neither read it before the usual belly rumbling and feet stamping and wishing that this reality will just go away.

BIG G

Well after we've played Socialist Appeal bingo, if we can't use our dobber on Western Imperialism in the first paragraph of any article then fill our card with tired old West bad shit by the end of the third paragraph it might, just might be worth wading through the same old tropes.

Monkeys with typewriters spring to mind.

You seem to enjoy it though so crack on.

 

[Davy]

To ne honest G I wasn't even going to reply. But perhaps it is better just to say what I think so that I am not misunderstood.
Firstly I never intended posting so much about this war. The first post was really just to say it was looking like war. I was then given an app which appeared to state things that were actually happening from the inside. The majority of these articles now end up on terrestrial TV so forgive me if I am not the only one who finds them useful as it appears news channels use the very app as a source. There was never an intention to deceive, not have I ever said this is 100% true, and in fact I have corrected any statements made which were later changed at source.
For your part you continually put Socialist writings up, I have no idea what of them is true and what is not, and both what I post and what you post are open to the very same scrutiny and criticism. What I don't understand is that if you wish to promote Socialism or have an agenda to rubbish the West, why you do not just start your own thread. I am sure guys like Aggie would be pleased to join in the university level discussions, none of which I particularly care to.

Now as to the war, I wish there was no war, I take no gratification in troops on either side dying for power mad leaders on any side. That said there does appear to be some thoroughly horrible people in this war as reports of people, including elderly and babies being raped, and perhaps the perpetrators are better off leaving this earth. But also there are what could be thousands of Russian recruits been sent to a war they were not forewarned of. At the same time I might question the authority Ukraine have in not allowing men to leave their country, but I suppose Britain was much the same back in 1940.

The background to the war you allude to a lot and if you scroll back pages you will see I have looked at the build up from many different angles. I have questioned the wisdom of leaving the question of Crimea unanswered whilst continuing there militarily. But countries are also allowed to make their own choices and/or mistakes. Ukraine feel Crimea is part of their country as did Britain with Ireland, which sadly also led to bloodshed though I didn't see Britain carpet bomb Ireland like Russia are doing. In fact Russia backed the separatists in Crimea with tanks and military equipment whilst all the time saying they were not involved. I think a better resolution back then would have been a poll in Crimea asking people what they wanted. Perhaps that is why Russia got involved, they probably knew there was not a majority wanting to leave Ukraine. And what did Russia do when they did take some control? one of Putin's croneys, I think perhaps his kids GodFather set up a resort for the rich, not doubt paying pennies to the locals to do the menial jobs. That said I have pointed out where I can see the argument from both sides, sadly I never see that from you in your quest for worldwide Soviet style Socialism.

I mentioned the movie about the overthrow of the previous Ukranian government. Why were they overthrown? Because they decided they wanted to come back into Russia's fold. Now that ti was mostly younger people who rose up might tell us that the youth of Ukraine do not want to go back to the Communist days and want to seek a better life in the West with democracy and dare I say possibly Capitalism. Where they in the majority? I have no idea, but whatever the truth was it ever right for Russia, the second biggest military power. to invade and indiscriminately bomb the hell out of a sovereign country? You have denied almost everything that has came out of Ukraine by way of eye witness testimony. I used to think the 3G Covid conspiritors were blind, but you would not even see the wood for the branches never mind the trees. Do you think I believe that Ukranian forces have never used excessive force, of course they will, but I doubt if we will read the same horror stories from eye witness testimony as to the exceutions and rape that is happening.


I also looked at the far right movement in the Azov regiment and concluded that certainly they had recruited many right wing members and some are still there, but the battalion was later integrated into the Ukranian army and the percentage is way lower now. So once again I see both sides and not through rose tinted specs. Yet during bombings of the opera theatre were possibly hundreds of civilians died you were quick to believe the Socialist statements that there were Azov soldiers inside without the slightest proof. I assume there must have been Socialists in there taking notes?

Now as to the West and whether there is a split or whatever, I really don't give a monkeys. NATO has many members and we all know wherever men gather in numbers there will be disagreements and some through self preservation or greed will seek their own agenda whilst appearing unified. But even given the splits in the camp NATO is way stronger and unified than it was pre-invasion as is Europe.

Now as to NATO/Europe backstabbing Russia well they actually long ago invited Russia into Europe and entrusted them with supplying oil and gas, something that has now come back to haunt them, But it is Russia who do not wish to be progressive, all they know is power and control. Yet you speak about Wester Imperialism when Putin has been bitter with hatred at his predecessors giving up the Soviet empire and there are claims he will never be satisfied until he has restored his empire. So forgive me as much as I have a mistrust for any government and power, I feel a little more free int he West.

As to Moatys suggestion the war should somehow just stop, it can! Russians leave Ukraine tomorrow and the war will be over! I hate war and I want peace, but is the solution just to sit down to a dictator and let him take your country over? Wow perhaps the whole of Europe should let the Red Army walk in and then we can all live in a Russian Utopia where Oligarchs run the show and we are happy to have a TV set. Because other reports are that Russians who entered Ukraine have been blown away by the so called luxury items there, like sofas, DVD players etc They must be they are carrying off everything they can get their hands on. So wow Russia must be a Paradise to live in!

I also have a Russian friend but I cannot tell her I back their troops.

Now as to the Psychiatric hospitals, well first it is a pretty cheap shot bringing this in as it bears zero relation to the war, nor the merits of the war. If anyone believes that Russia are entitles to attack Ukraine because of their record on care of the mentally vulnerable then they might as well invade Pakistan, India, Khazakstan etc Yes the scenes were awful, though I also suspect many carers have long fled. But also listening to some of those who remain it is clear they haven't a clue, stating things like "well these people will never be able to do anything". I happen to work with people with learning disabilities so I do not write this off easily. It is clear the country needs dragged into not only the 21st, but the latter 20th century. But that is part of the point, Ukraine is probablu 40 years behind Western thinking in many things. We took 40 years from there to get where we are now, don't expect and overnight transition, it takes time. Also the Oligarchs in these countries make sure the wealth is not moved to vulnerable areas of society and it is better to lock the problem away. If Ukraine did join the EU then as has been said they would be subject to far more rigorous checks. However we cannot get above ourselves as the Edinburgh children's homes abuse scandal and Psychiatric care homes abuses which in some ways led to care in the community testify. Anyone using this subject as an example of why Russia should be allowed to invade Russia needs their head examined.


Finally, whether Russia feel threatened or not having a strong NATO, why is Ukraine not allowed to vote for their own future? Russia already broke agreements in the past which were to ensure Ukraine stayed neutral, now they not only have taken Ukraine's nuclear arsenal, but they are stock piling ammunition in a thermal nuclear plant in Luhansk, daring UF to hit it. They really are sickos. Nope Finland have seen what Russia are capable of and they are turning to the West for back up. Ukraine have the right to their own destiny.


By the same token China wish to extend their territory but cannot find countries willing to come under their authority so now wish to do so with force and probably invade Taiwan. If UK were so imperially minded they never would have given up Hong Kong, instead they simply would have allowed USA to bung another Airfield and Nuclear Sub harbour there. The world will be a scarier place, and sadly countries are clambering to align themselves to someone as we see with Egypt cancelling grain orders from Ukraine the day after a visit from Putin. I will continue to put some stories up and everyone here can be free to believe, not believe or sit on the fence. I won't attempt to explain myself yet again as I think I have done so plenty throughout this thread


FWIW I do think the West have let the Kurds down. Nothing is ever going to happen without someone suffering. As to the refugees in Morocco or elsewhere I do not have an answer. Opening the borders to anyone will cause the country to crash, and the fact the Brits right now are crying out that prices are too high and Unions calling strikes for more pay tell me that this is not an option that would be welcomed should it ever happen...but people will say it should, until it does

 

[GORDONSMITH7]

To ne honest G I wasn't even going to reply. But perhaps it is better just to say what I think so that I am not misunderstood.
Firstly I never intended posting so much about this wat. The first post was really just to say it was looking like war. I was then given an app which appeared to state things that were actually happening from the inside. The majority of these articles now end up on terrestrial TV so forgive me if I am not the only one who finds them useful as it appears news channels use the very app as a source. There was never an intention to deceive, not have I ever said this is 100% true, and in fact I have corrected any statements made which were later changed at source.
For your part you continually put Socialist writings up, I have no idea what of them is true and what is not, and both what I post and what you post are open to the very same scrutiny and criticism. What I don't understand is that if you wish to promote Socialism or have an agenda to rubbish the West, why you do not just start your own thread. I am sure guys like Aggie would be pleased to join in the university level discussions, none of which I particularly care to.

Now as to the war, I wish there was no war, I take no gratification in troops on either side dying for power mad leaders on any side. That said there does appear to be some thoroughly horrible people in this war as reports of people, including elderly and babies being raped, and perhaps the perpetrators are better off leaving this earth. But also there are what could be thousands of Russian recruits been sent to a war they were not forewarned of. At the same time I might question the authority Ukraine have in not allowing men to leave their country, but I suppose Britain was much the same back in 1940.

The background to the war you allude to a lot and if you scroll back pages you will see I have looked at the build up from many different angles. I have questioned the wisdom of leaving the question of Crimea unanswered whilst continuing there militarily. But countries are also allowed to make their own choices and/or mistakes. Ukraine feel Crimea is part of their country as did Britain with Ireland, which sadly also led to bloodshed though I didn't see Britain carpet bomb Ireland like Russia are doing. In fact Russia backed the separatists in Crimea with tanks and military equipment whilst all the time saying they were not involved. I think a better resolution back then would have been a poll in Crimea asking people what they wanted. Perhaps that is why Russia got involved, they probably knew there was not a majority wanting to leave Ukraine. And what did Russia do when they did take some control? one of Putin's croneys, I think perhaps his kids GodFather set up a resort for the rich, not doubt paying pennies to the locals to do the menial jobs. That said I have pointed out where I can see the argument from both sides, sadly I never see that from you in your quest for worldwide Soviet style Socialism.

I mentioned the movie about the overthrow of the previous Ukranian government. Why were they overthrown? Because they decided they wanted to come back into Russia's fold. Now that ti was mostly younger people who rose up might tell us that the youth of Ukraine do not want to go back to the Communist days and want to seek a better life in the West with democracy and dare I say possibly Capitalism. Where they in the majority? I have no idea, but whatever the truth was it ever right for Russia, the second biggest military power. to invade and indiscriminately bomb the hell out of a sovereign country? You have denied almost everything that has came out of Ukraine by way of eye witness testimony. I used to think the 3G Covid conspiritors were blind, but you would not even see the wood for the branches never mind the trees. Do you think I believe that Ukranian forces have never used excessive force, of course they will, but I doubt if we will read the same horror stories from eye witness testimony as to the exceutions and rape that is happening.


I also looked at the far right movement in the Azov regiment and concluded that certainly they had recruited many right wing members and some are still there, but the battalion was later integrated into the Ukranian army and the percentage is way lower now. So once again I see both sides and not through rose tinted specs. Yet during bombings of the opera theatre were possibly hundreds of civilians died you were quick to believe the Socialist statements that there were Azov soldiers inside without the slightest proof. I assume there must have been Socialists in there taking notes?

Now as to the West and whether there is a split or whatever, I really don't give a monkeys. NATO has many members and we all know wherever men gather in numbers there will be disagreements and some through self preservation or greed will seek their own agenda whilst appearing unified. But even given the splits in the camp NATO is way stronger and unified than it was pre-invasion as is Europe.

Now as to NATO/Europe backstabbing Russia well they actually long ago invited Russia into Europe and entrusted them with supplying oil and gas, something that has now come back to haunt them, But it is Russia who do not wish to be progressive, all they know is power and control. Yet you speak about Wester Imperialism when Putin has been bitter with hatred at his predecessors giving up the Soviet empire and there are claims he will never be satisfied until he has restored his empire. So forgive me as much as I have a mistrust for any government and power, I feel a little more free int he West.

As to Moatys suggestion the war should somehow just stop, it can! Russians leave Ukraine tomorrow and the war will be over! I hate war and I want peace, but is the solution just to sit down to a dictator and let him take your country over? Wow perhaps the whole of Europe should let the Red Army walk in and then we can all live in a Russian Utopia where Oligarchs run the show and we are happy to have a TV set. Because other reports are that Russians who entered Ukraine have been blown away by the so called luxury items there, like sofas, DVD players etc They must be they are carrying off everything they can get their hands on. So wow Russia must be a Paradise to live in!

I also have a Russian friend but I cannot tell her I back their troops.

Now as to the Psychiatric hospitals, well first it is a pretty cheap shot bringing this in as it bears zero relation to the war, nor the merits of the war. If anyone believes that Russia are entitles to attack Ukraine because of their record on care of the mentally vulnerable then they might as well invade Pakistan, India, Khazakstan etc Yes the scenes were awful, though I also suspect many carers have long fled. But also listening to some of those who remain it is clear they haven't a clue, stating things like "well these people will never be able to do anything". I happen to work with people with learning disabilities so I do not write this off easily. It is clear the country needs dragged into not only the 21st, but the latter 20th century. But that is part of the point, Ukraine is probablu 40 years behind Western thinking in many things. We took 40 years from there to get where we are now, don't expect and overnight transition, it takes time. Also the Oligarchs in these countries make sure the wealth is not moved to vulnerable areas of society and it is better to lock the problem away. If Ukraine did join the EU then as has been said they would be subject to far more rigorous checks. However we cannot get above ourselves as the Edinburgh children's homes abuse scandal and Psychiatric care homes abuses which in some ways led to care in the community testify. Anyone using this subject as an example of why Russia should be allowed to invade Russia needs their head examined.


Finally, whether Russia feel threatened or not having a strong NATO, why is Ukraine not allowed to vote for their own future? Russia already broke agreements in the past which were to ensure Ukraine stayed neutral, now they not only have taken Ukraine's nuclear arsenal, but they are stock piling ammunition in a thermal nuclear plant in Luhansk, daring UF to hit it. They really are sickos. Nope Finland have seen what Russia are capable of and they are turning to the West for back up. Ukraine have the right to their own destiny.


By the same token China wish to extend their territory but cannot find countries willing to come under their authority so now wish to do so with force and probably invade Taiwan. If UK were so imperially minded they never would have given up Hong Kong, instead they simply would have allowed USA to bung another Airfield and Nuclear Sub harbour there. The world will be a scarier place, and sadly countries are clambering to align themselves to someone as we see with Egypt cancelling grain orders from Ukraine the day after a visit from Putin. I will continue to put some stories up and everyone here can be free to believe, not believe or sit on the fence. I won't attempt to explain myself yet again as I think I have done so plenty throughout this thread


FWIW I do think the West have let the Kurds down. Nothing is ever going to happen without someone suffering. As to the refugees in Morocco or elsewhere I do not have an answer. Opening the borders to anyone will cause the country to crash, and the fact the Brits right now are crying out that prices are too high and Unions calling strikes for more pay tell me that this is not an option that would pecobe welcomed should it ever happen...but people will say it should, prrviay it does

I a

Well after we've played Socialist Appeal bingo, if we can't use our dobber on Western Imperialism in the first paragraph of any article then fill our card with tired old West bad shit by the end of the third paragraph it might, just might be worth wading through the same old tropes.

Monkeys with typewriters spring to mind.

You seem to enjoy it though so crack on.

To ne honest G I wasn't even going to reply. But perhaps it is better just to say what I think so that I am not misunderstood.
Firstly I never intended posting so much about this wat. The first post was really just to say it was looking like war. I was then given an app which appeared to state things that were actually happening from the inside. The majority of these articles now end up on terrestrial TV so forgive me if I am not the only one who finds them useful as it appears news channels use the very app as a source. There was never an intention to deceive, not have I ever said this is 100% true, and in fact I have corrected any statements made which were later changed at source.
For your part you continually put Socialist writings up, I have no idea what of them is true and what is not, and both what I post and what you post are open to the very same scrutiny and criticism. What I don't understand is that if you wish to promote Socialism or have an agenda to rubbish the West, why you do not just start your own thread. I am sure guys like Aggie would be pleased to join in the university level discussions, none of which I particularly care to.

Now as to the war, I wish there was no war, I take no gratification in troops on either side dying for power mad leaders on any side. That said there does appear to be some thoroughly horrible people in this war as reports of people, including elderly and babies being raped, and perhaps the perpetrators are better off leaving this earth. But also there are what could be thousands of Russian recruits been sent to a war they were not forewarned of. At the same time I might question the authority Ukraine have in not allowing men to leave their country, but I suppose Britain was much the same back in 1940.

The background to the war you allude to a lot and if you scroll back pages you will see I have looked at the build up from many different angles. I have questioned the wisdom of leaving the question of Crimea unanswered whilst continuing there militarily. But countries are also allowed to make their own choices and/or mistakes. Ukraine feel Crimea is part of their country as did Britain with Ireland, which sadly also led to bloodshed though I didn't see Britain carpet bomb Ireland like Russia are doing. In fact Russia backed the separatists in Crimea with tanks and military equipment whilst all the time saying they were not involved. I think a better resolution back then would have been a poll in Crimea asking people what they wanted. Perhaps that is why Russia got involved, they probably knew there was not a majority wanting to leave Ukraine. And what did Russia do when they did take some control? one of Putin's croneys, I think perhaps his kids GodFather set up a resort for the rich, not doubt paying pennies to the locals to do the menial jobs. That said I have pointed out where I can see the argument from both sides, sadly I never see that from you in your quest for worldwide Soviet style Socialism.

I mentioned the movie about the overthrow of the previous Ukranian government. Why were they overthrown? Because they decided they wanted to come back into Russia's fold. Now that ti was mostly younger people who rose up might tell us that the youth of Ukraine do not want to go back to the Communist days and want to seek a better life in the West with democracy and dare I say possibly Capitalism. Where they in the majority? I have no idea, but whatever the truth was it ever right for Russia, the second biggest military power. to invade and indiscriminately bomb the hell out of a sovereign country? You have denied almost everything that has came out of Ukraine by way of eye witness testimony. I used to think the 3G Covid conspiritors were blind, but you would not even see the wood for the branches never mind the trees. Do you think I believe that Ukranian forces have never used excessive force, of course they will, but I doubt if we will read the same horror stories from eye witness testimony as to the exceutions and rape that is happening.


I also looked at the far right movement in the Azov regiment and concluded that certainly they had recruited many right wing members and some are still there, but the battalion was later integrated into the Ukranian army and the percentage is way lower now. So once again I see both sides and not through rose tinted specs. Yet during bombings of the opera theatre were possibly hundreds of civilians died you were quick to believe the Socialist statements that there were Azov soldiers inside without the slightest proof. I assume there must have been Socialists in there taking notes?

Now as to the West and whether there is a split or whatever, I really don't give a monkeys. NATO has many members and we all know wherever men gather in numbers there will be disagreements and some through self preservation or greed will seek their own agenda whilst appearing unified. But even given the splits in the camp NATO is way stronger and unified than it was pre-invasion as is Europe.

Now as to NATO/Europe backstabbing Russia well they actually long ago invited Russia into Europe and entrusted them with supplying oil and gas, something that has now come back to haunt them, But it is Russia who do not wish to be progressive, all they know is power and control. Yet you speak about Wester Imperialism when Putin has been bitter with hatred at his predecessors giving up the Soviet empire and there are claims he will never be satisfied until he has restored his empire. So forgive me as much as I have a mistrust for any government and power, I feel a little more free int he West.

As to Moatys suggestion the war should somehow just stop, it can! Russians leave Ukraine tomorrow and the war will be over! I hate war and I want peace, but is the solution just to sit down to a dictator and let him take your country over? Wow perhaps the whole of Europe should let the Red Army walk in and then we can all live in a Russian Utopia where Oligarchs run the show and we are happy to have a TV set. Because other reports are that Russians who entered Ukraine have been blown away by the so called luxury items there, like sofas, DVD players etc They must be they are carrying off everything they can get their hands on. So wow Russia must be a Paradise to live in!

I also have a Russian friend but I cannot tell her I back their troops.

Now as to the Psychiatric hospitals, well first it is a pretty cheap shot bringing this in as it bears zero relation to the war, nor the merits of the war. If anyone believes that Russia are entitles to attack Ukraine because of their record on care of the mentally vulnerable then they might as well invade Pakistan, India, Khazakstan etc Yes the scenes were awful, though I also suspect many carers have long fled. But also listening to some of those who remain it is clear they haven't a clue, stating things like "well these people will never be able to do anything". I happen to work with people with learning disabilities so I do not write this off easily. It is clear the country needs dragged into not only the 21st, but the latter 20th century. But that is part of the point, Ukraine is probablu 40 years behind Western thinking in many things. We took 40 years from there to get where we are now, don't expect and overnight transition, it takes time. Also the Oligarchs in these countries make sure the wealth is not moved to vulnerable areas of society and it is better to lock the problem away. If Ukraine did join the EU then as has been said they would be subject to far more rigorous checks. However we cannot get above ourselves as the Edinburgh children's homes abuse scandal and Psychiatric care homes abuses which in some ways led to care in the community testify. Anyone using this subject as an example of why Russia should be allowed to invade Russia needs their head examined.


Finally, whether Russia feel threatened or not having a strong NATO, why is Ukraine not allowed to vote for their own future? Russia already broke agreements in the past which were to ensure Ukraine stayed neutral, now they not only have taken Ukraine's nuclear arsenal, but they are stock piling ammunition in a thermal nuclear plant in Luhansk, daring UF to hit it. They really are sickos. Nope Finland have seen what Russia are capable of and they are turning to the West for back up. Ukraine have the right to their own destiny.


By the same token China wish to extend their territory but cannot find countries willing to come under their authority so now wish to do so with force and probably invade Taiwan. If UK were so imperially minded they never would have given up Hong Kong, instead they simply would have allowed USA to bung another Airfield and Nuclear Sub harbour there. The world will be a scarier place, and sadly countries are clambering to align themselves to someone as we see with Egypt cancelling grain orders from Ukraine the day after a visit from Putin. I will continue to put some stories up and everyone here can be free to believe, not believe or sit on the fence. I won't attempt to explain myself yet again as I think I have done so plenty throughout this thread


FWIW I do think the West have let the Kurds down. Nothing is ever going to happen without someone suffering. As to the refugees in Morocco or elsewhere I do not have an answer. Opening the borders to anyone will cause the country to crash, and the fact the Brits right now are crying out that prices are too high and Unions calling strikes for more pay tell me that this is not an option that would be welcomed should it ever ndhappen...but people will say it should, until it does

Thank you Davy , though I do utterly disagree with many of your assertions here.
I honestly appreciate your contributions .

Your definitely not on my Dafties list by a long shot amigo.

BIG G

 

[Rocky]

Can you highlight ANYTHING that you disagree with in the above article in Socialist Appeal

Not saying I disagree with it but can you provide a source for the very first sentence? Shrill intros of dubious veracity tend to make me skeptical of the remainder of the content so if you can point me towards these folks who are shouting from the rooftops about victory for the Western imperialists I'll crack on to the second sentence.

 

[Davy]

I a



Thank you Davy , though I do utterly disagree with many of your assertions here.
I honestly appreciate your contributions .

Your definitely not on my Dafties list by a long shot amigo.

BIG G

Thanks. I understand your passion if not your willingness to dismiss reports out of hand. I would actually prefer to see you writing about your own beliefs and why you think socialism could or could not work and in what form, for example I am a great admirer of David Owens; or some other subject you are passionate about

 

[Rocky]

Tried another couple of paragraphs.

For the first time, the new NATO Strategic Concept document describes China as a “systemic challenge”. This is an official recognition of the relative decline of US imperialism and the threat posed by a rising power.

That's a non sequitur.

 

[EH17 Jimmy]

I've just been reading about the apparent castration of a Ukrainian POW by Chechen troops fighting for Russia.

There is footage of this sickening act online.

Maybe the Ukrainian medic who called for Russian POW's to be castrated should now face the Ukrainian lads family and explain himself.

Horrifying footage appears to show Russian captors castrating a Ukrainian prisoner of war

A horrific video posted online on Thursday appears to show a Ukrainian prisoner of war being castrated by his Russian captors.

uk.news.yahoo.com

 

[jetsam1]

What is worrying is the fact that the Wagner Group Mercenaries are now taking over parts of the front line. These guys have a bad reputation.......

Also suggest issues sourcing combat infantry for Russia.

 

[Davy]

What is worrying is the fact that the Wagner Group Mercenaries are now taking over parts of the front line. These guys have a bad reputation.....

Also suggest issues sourcing combat infantry for Russia.

And they are said to be recruiting from prisons as a good number of their forces have already been killed or wounded. Putin pretends to distance himself from them but they are basically a way he can have troops doing what they like without officially being part of the Russian army.

Today's incident where Russia claimed UF hit one of their POW buildings and killed 40 prisoners is a new low even for Russia. About 140 are also injured yet we are supposed to believe zero guards have been injured or killed. Already the Red cross have visited and reports coming out is that the bodies were not scattered as they would be by a missile. but lumped together. Therma weaponry is being discussed as a possibility. Russia never knew what to do with the prisoners of the Azov regiment and there is every reason to believe Ukraine;s claim that the prisoners had been tortured and murdered and this was simply Mosco;w's way of covering up the truth whilst putting the blame on UF.


In another barbaric incident, a video is circulating of a Ukranian prisoner being castrated by Russian soldiers with a clerical knife, then being shot and dragged along the ground with ropes tied to his feet.
edit from BBC...The Russian soldier filmed carrying out the attack in the town of Severodonetsk was identified as a member of a unit belonging to Chechen leader Ramzan Kadyrov.

UF blew up another 4 ammunition dumps and it is certainly affecting the amount of shells being fired at cities in the East and South,

Dozens of vehicles have been moving South to Kherson as RF beef up their defence. What difference this may now have back in the East remains to be seen, but Ukraine say don't rule out an attack from the Belarussian border on the Chernihiv region

In the Chelybinsk region of Russia, the Bukhara-Ural gas pipeline is blazing which RF claim was due to de-pressurisation of an underground gas pipeline.

A video came out showing a cargo plane loaded with boxes (coffins) of dead Buryat soldiers which is claimed all come from the republic of Tuva which is considered the poorest region of the Russian federation...again backing up claims that Russia rely heavily on recruitment from poorer areas. The report was compiled by the Novaya Tuva newspaper.


North Macedonia are donating some of their 31 T-72 tanks which are due to be phased out

Lithuania are also sending 10 more armoured vehicles, anti-drones and ammunition

In Luhansk ATMs are still not working and RF are unable to supply basics like water and electricity which means computer and internet systems are not operating which is shutting down just about everything. Pretty much no one is working..welcome to the new Russia!

 

[Davy]

Clashes reported at the border between Kosova and Serbia now, not looking good. Meanwhile a border clash between Iranian forces and Afghan Taliban resulted in the death of a Taliban officer

 

[Davy]

 

[jetsam1]

Chances of Grain ships leaving Odessa being sunk in "accidents" conveniently to turn the screws on the World further? Am I too cynical?

Weaponising food supplies. Predictable.

 

[Davy]

Chances of Grain ships leaving Odessa being sunk in "accidents" conveniently to turn the screws on the World further? Am I too cynical?

Weaponising food supplies. Predictable.

Prob more likely they will hit a mine but they are certainly living on the edge, though they are getting an escort. Looks like a Russian Naval ship was hit today.
Russia are pushing on so many fronts and taking losses every day that they will soon have to forget some targets at least for a while to concentrate on others. Their shells and missiles almost seem unlimited at times though, even with the fact Ukraine have hit about 20 ammo dumps and trains in the last few weeks.

Reports of a Ukranian hit on the Daryevsky bridge across the ingulets river in the Kherson region. Big hole in middle but vehicles getting over..


UEFA fined Fenerbahce 50k euros for their fans chanting the name of the Russian tyrant.

Bulgaria indefinitely stops Visas to Russians

Russia twice today shelled the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power station putting Europe, including Russia at risk of a nuclear fallout.

Meanwhile RF continue to shell Nikopol from the relative safety of another nuclear plant in Energodar knowing UF will not fire on this plant.

Half the G20 countries to not agree with USA to isolate Russia from the world

25% of the people in hospital in Mariupol die because of the terrible conditions..meanwhile RF hold a rock concert on the site of the destroyed theatre in Mariupol

Ukraine estimate to have killed around 41,650 Russian troops, many of course will be conscripts from occupied territories as well.

1792 tanks
4032 armoured personelle vehicles
950artillery systems
260 MLRS
123 Anti aircraft systems
223 aircraft
191 helicoptors
742 UAVs
182 cruise missiles
15 boats/ships
2964 vehicles and fuel tanks
83 special equipment




Meanwhile Israel pass a motion to call up 25,000 people for the military as a result of latest clashes in the Gaza Strip

And USA declare state of alert over the spread of Monkeypox

 

[jetsam1]

All the world does seem a lot more screwed than it has has been for quite some time.

I suppose where we are is at a point where the Autocrats have decided to start pushing at the democracies and have been surprised at the resistance. I think what we were supposed to do was get down on our knees and bask in awe and fear at the wonder of Putin and China.

Pelosi I think was misguided though, no point in directly provoking but Taiwan as a vulnerable democracy should be given protection from China as all they want to do is massacre them no doubt.

What are we to do? Orban's speech the other day in the USA and earlier in Romania was properly Christian Facist, the real thing is back. I see the point as being he is obviously either completely flipped due to too much power or he is being encouraged to try and split up Europe and bring the other far right parties more into power. In order to split up Europe and weaken democracy to the point it dies. Orban has gone a long way on this. Doesn't happen overnight but is insidious in its progress. "Salami" Tactics, little slices at a time and then you find yourself in poo.

So do we like democracy and living in democracies? Well, there are forces here that want to take that away from you. China and Russia would love the EU to collapse and the destitution of Europe, maybe even in their wildest dreams a return to barbarism. China likes the money but when you have an ultra nationalistic autocrat in charge might they just stop caring? Putin, well in my opinion he is an agent for chaos, Modi in India is a religious fundamentlist and ultra nationalist as well. Doubt he would shed any tears over the destruction of Europe. Most of the rest of the world are at best ambivalent or hate us (governments not necassarily populations as most of the rest of the world are hardly democratic). And as we live in a increasingly interconnected world this cannot be ignored. Also note increasingly aggressive behaviour of China in the Pacific, New Zealand and Australis right to feel alarmed.

Putin reckons on implicit Chinese support as well as Africa and Brazil at least in South America, and the usual suspects such as Iran. So all the most awful leaders in the world are enjoying themselves. Lets not beat about the bush Putin is having a wonderful time, Xi is also firing off his missiles. Iran just wants Europe in flames. I thought we were moving towards civilisation but aboviously that is stalling.

As I have alluded to the current situation is starting to see the anti democratic dictatorships moving into a block against at least the ANZAC and European countries. The USA depends if Trump or a Republican of the same stripe gets in next time and if they go full on isolationist or decide they like autocracy themselves. Can the US survive if someone cleverer than Trump goes after the Constitution? The UK is currently disintegrating. So choices will need to be made, democracy or autocracy. If Le Pen somehow manages to get over the line in France that will be the end of France but the EU will break up and the rest of the democracies will be under intense pressure. Easy for all the progress since WW2 to vanish in a puff of smoke and we end up back where we were in chaos and division being picked off one by one.

For the Left, you obviusly would welcome a leftist version of autocracy as the only way a pure socialist system could be implemented as this will not win an election.

Maybe I am too cynical about the potential for the Human Race to survive or just wipe ourselves out? My money is on us wiping ourselves out essentially, we are still basically apes listening to our lizard brains and wedded to short term thinking preventing any thought further away than dinner.