Israel

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1875 said:
Its not the Jewish state, it is the Israeli state. For me they are murdering kids every day. They are *&*^.
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Yes but thats a regional norm sadly. Yet they are singled out. The one Jewish state among a bunch of Arab ones is singled out, which is why I used the term.
 
hibbybilly said:
Correct, they're just cvnts. egb's got a stiffy for them.
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Nope. I've stated my objection. I've not defended Israel's actions, indeed have described them as brutal, awful and slaughter just in this afternoon's chat.

That doesn't suggest sympathy for their excesses anymore than objection to demonising Muslims implies support for islamist actions.
 
egb_hibs said:
Yes but thats a regional norm sadly. Yet they are singled out. The one Jewish state among a bunch of Arab ones is singled out, which is why I used the term.
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I think plenty is said about Yemen too, where else are kids/ innocent members of the public being murdered daily? Israel is considered a 'western' state, they behave like that are not, with indifference, for me that is the difference.

I have no argument with the Jewish faith at all, I respect it. The state of Israel are *&*^.
 
1875 said:
I think plenty is said about Yemen too, where esle are kids/ innocent members of the public being murdered daily? Israel is considered a 'western' state, they behave like that are not, with indifference, for me that is the difference.

I have no argument with the Jewish faith at all, I respect it. The state of Israel are *&*^.
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Yemen doesn't have a hundred page thread, saturation media coverage, hundreds of thousands on the streets including thousands of islamist crack pots, and isn't subject to countless academics, celebs, nazis and others demonising it or any faction within it. Its simply not comparable. Nor do i expect left wing activists start to murder yemenis on western streets.

Ditto Syria. Ditto any of the others in their periods of carnage.

Ditto anywhere else tbh. Even Russia.

I don't believe anyone here is prejudiced against Jews. I think what I describe - some of which absolutely is the work of jew haters - creates a distorted view of events versus the region, the world and indeed the conduct of ourselves in wartime.
 
hibbybilly said:
Read where I use it, I'm sure you can work it out.
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No I can't. Genocide means an effort to wipe out a race or ethnic group. That's simply not happening so I'm not sure why you are using the term.

Mass slaughter is happening, explained by hamas human shield strategy, which isn't the same as justified.
 
egb_hibs said:
No I can't. Genocide means an effort to wipe out a race or ethnic group. That's simply not happening so I'm not sure why you are using the term.

Mass slaughter is happening, explained by hamas human shield strategy, which isn't the same as justified.
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Aye, your right, and these are wrong. Plenty more pages like the ones below but I can't be arsed now.


www.amnesty.org

Amnesty International concludes Israel is committing genocide against Palestinians in Gaza

Amnesty International’s research has found sufficient basis to conclude that Israel has committed and is continuing to commit genocide against Palestinians in the occupied Gaza Strip.
www.amnesty.org www.amnesty.org

www.bu.edu

Is Israel Committing Genocide in Gaza? New Report from BU School of Law’s International Human Rights Clinic Lays Out Case

The report comes from researchers at the University Network for Human Rights, a consortium of human right centers
www.bu.edu www.bu.edu

 
hibbybilly said:
Aye, your right, and these are wrong. Plenty more pages like the ones below but I can't be arsed now.


www.amnesty.org

Amnesty International concludes Israel is committing genocide against Palestinians in Gaza

Amnesty International’s research has found sufficient basis to conclude that Israel has committed and is continuing to commit genocide against Palestinians in the occupied Gaza Strip.
www.amnesty.org www.amnesty.org

www.bu.edu

Is Israel Committing Genocide in Gaza? New Report from BU School of Law’s International Human Rights Clinic Lays Out Case

The report comes from researchers at the University Network for Human Rights, a consortium of human right centers
www.bu.edu www.bu.edu

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Yes these are wrong. Ideological organisations misusing a term doesn't make it right. Its a word with a meaning, and what it means is manifestly not taking place. The UN has zero credibility on this issue and amnesty long since succumbed to the ubiquitous activist class.

The accusations of genocide long predate this current conflict. It remains the case that populations subject to genocide do not grow massively, and flourish where they aren't attacking the 'genocidalist'. Genocide is about obliterating an ethnic or other identifiable group by murder, sterilisation, raping them out of the gene pool etc. The Palestinians have not been obliterated, they have grown 8 fold during the Israeli period. That's in marked contrast to, say, eastern European jewry being reduced by 90% in a brief time period by comparison. That's what genocide looks like. See also Turkey's elimination of various minorities, the tutsi effort to eliminate Hutus etc

groups subject to genocide disappear or are reduced in massive chunks, in areas where it goes on. All the activists in the world can misuse the the term, just as they misuse the term woman, and many others; it doesn't change anything, they're just lying or are ignorant.
 
Geno means race, cide means killing. Genocide means killing off - or trying to - a race.

I can see it being justifiably extended to attempts to wipe out other kinds of groups, for example if someone tried to wipe out all gay people. But if ideological organisations want to use a word to nail Israel they can make up another one, because genocide is taken.
 
Think it’s pretty much established, EGB is outnumbered 339 to 1 but he’ll still have the last word on this 🤣
 
You can laugh Billy, but the UN are a shit show. More motions against Israel than all other countries combined iirc, hamas using their facilties, driving out the official responsible for preventing genocide for refusing their misuse. even in the last few days issuing statements about thousands of babies dying in 48 hours which even the BBC has torn to pieces for the completely made up guff it is. They have no credibility on this issue.
 
joethehibby said:
Think it’s pretty much established, EGB is outnumbered 339 to 1 but he’ll still have the last word on this 🤣
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I'll take those odds. I have the literal meaning of the word on my side, spelled out in the word itself.

Perhaps you might yet be the first person to explain why it actually means something else?
 
egb_hibs said:
I'll take those odds. I have the literal meaning of the word on my side, spelled out in the word itself.

Perhaps you might yet be the first person to explain why it actually means something else?
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No point mate, like I said you wont be beat, fair play .👍
 
egb_hibs said:
Mass slaughter is happening, explained by hamas human shield strategy, which isn't the same as justified.
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It's alot more indiscriminate than that though don't you think?

I take on your arguments of our involvement in other conflict, and I'm sure I would disagree with levelling cities to get 1 guy too. But there was also efforts to rebuild and look after their populations. There's no allowance for food, water, supplies. Hospitals, aid camps and convoys get attacked on the regular. They're limiting any help to the population.

They're every bit as barbaric as they claim the people they're fighting.

You replied above when I asked about them being taken in elsewhere, I had a look for what they done, (basic knowledge so don't go in hard) but that's a sequence of events that started 80 years ago and took 20 years to action (rough numbers)
The world is different now, even in the neighbouring countries, I'm not sure that would be a reality again.
Hard to guess obviously, but I'd imagine they'd rather see their kids grow up than go back to a world like this.

Israel want that land, they can't chase the people out because nobody will take them. There's only one other way to deal with them and it's not peaceful.
 
Hammi said:
It's alot more indiscriminate than that though don't you think?

I take on your arguments of our involvement in other conflict, and I'm sure I would disagree with levelling cities to get 1 guy too. But there was also efforts to rebuild and look after their populations. There's no allowance for food, water, supplies. Hospitals, aid camps and convoys get attacked on the regular. They're limiting any help to the population.

They're every bit as barbaric as they claim the people they're fighting.

You replied above when I asked about them being taken in elsewhere, I had a look for what they done, (basic knowledge so don't go in hard) but that's a sequence of events that started 80 years ago and took 20 years to action (rough numbers)
The world is different now, even in the neighbouring countries, I'm not sure that would be a reality again.
Hard to guess obviously, but I'd imagine they'd rather see their kids grow up than go back to a world like this.

Israel want that land, they can't chase the people out because nobody will take them. There's only one other way to deal with them and it's not peaceful.
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Well how do you measure indiscriminate Hammi? Despite Hamas hiding among the population and infiltrated into the agencies, analysts suggest civilian to combatant ratios are significantly lower than the norm.

Your last paragraph goes to the heart of it but it cuts both ways. It could be said equally of the Jews, surrounded by tens if not hundreds of millions who want them purged as they, Christians and others have been from the rest of the region. There have been terrible deeds on both sides, but it was and remains the Arab world who wouldn't coexist.

The Israelis meanwhile seem to have been miltantised by this situation over long decades. I suspect they have given up on coexistence, realising the other side is never going to go for it. They thus may well seek to drive people into Egypt, Syria or whatever rather than accept eternal attacks. An intractable situation then, one of those endless human tragedies history is full of.

As above I think eventually it will end with Israel being wiped at which point there'll be new reasons for the arabs to slaughter each other. Or, if they get their shit together, to turn their eyes to Europe. The latter is one reason the west supports Israel I think. That would mark a return to most of the last 1300 years despite illusions we may fall into through 300 years of dominance thanks to technology advantage that is now fast disappearing.

As it stands, Europe is defined by where it managed to hold the line - it would have included the middle east and north africa where it didn't. History is back all over the place with technological dominance on the wane (for now it's the only thing that allows Israel to exist). Again, this is one reason why the west will never stop backing them, just don't expect it to be spoken out loud.
 
For all their faults the idea that the leadership of the UK, USA, Canada, France, Germany etc, etc don’t care or give a fuck about the brutality of the Israeli leadership (not its people) in terms of its response to the brutality of the Hamas onslaught of innocents is an absolute nonsense. I'd be more than confident that the likes of Starmer and Macron are as outraged at the slaughter of innocent children just as much on the Palestinian side as they are on the Israeli side. No wonder it's an unsolvable issue with the absolute bollocks that comes from both sides. I'm suspicious of anyone who appears to think there's some easy solution to all of this.
 
It’s a bit weird that so much argument has been had between Bouncers on a singular word ‘genocide’ which almost pits Bouncer v Bouncer.

The truth is (from my viewpoint at least) that @egb wins the definition argument, but the rest are united in believing Hamas are almost indescribable butchers happy to sacrifice innocents for little reason, whilst the IDF are equably culpable in viewing innocents as necessary collateral damage.

It’s an inhuman and disgusting situation, which we all agree. Arguing over a word ‘genocide’ ….. is that our best position?

I have to be honest now……….. why the fuck are there still hostages? To what end?



It’s all beyond my comprehension.
 
Smurf said:
For all their faults the idea that the leadership of the UK, USA, Canada, France, Germany etc, etc don’t care or give a fuck about the brutality of the Israeli leadership (not its people) in terms of its response to the brutality of the Hamas onslaught of innocents is an absolute nonsense. I'd be more than confident that the likes of Starmer and Macron are as outraged at the slaughter of innocent children just as much on the Palestinian side as they are on the Israeli side. No wonder it's an unsolvable issue with the absolute bollocks that comes from both sides. I'm suspicious of anyone who appears to think there's some easy solution to all of this.
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Credit to you for assuming there is some humanity in Starmer, I'm afraid his cowardice and silence in the face of genocide is not what the UK or the wider world needs from a leader
 
Doc Shrink said:
It’s a bit weird that so much argument has been had between Bouncers on a singular word ‘genocide’ which almost pits Bouncer v Bouncer.

The truth is (from my viewpoint at least) that @egb wins the definition argument, but the rest are united in believing Hamas are almost indescribable butchers happy to sacrifice innocents for little reason, whilst the IDF are equably culpable in viewing innocents as necessary collateral damage.

It’s an inhuman and disgusting situation, which we all agree. Arguing over a word ‘genocide’ ….. is that our best position?

I have to be honest now……….. why the fuck are there still hostages? To what end?



It’s all beyond my comprehension.
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The reason i contest the point is that it is part of a demonisation campaign. I do not say that fellow bouncers are part of that campaign, but I do suspect I'm seeing it's influence. If unchallenged it leads nowhere good.

As to your questions on hostages, I don't know either. But I think a grave mistake we make is in trying to relate Hamas in some way to how we view the world. They aren't like that at all. They don't care about Palestinians dying, they think it's a good thing; a) firstly because they are a death cult that sees martyrdom as the best thing since sliced bread and b) because they cannot win militarily but they perhaps can win by turning the world against Israel.

I called it cynicism before, but perhaps it's not actually that. They really mean it maaan. So while I can't answer the hostages question, I think I can say we will never figure it out by considering the question in the way you or I would look at it.
 
Doc Shrink said:
It’s a bit weird that so much argument has been had between Bouncers on a singular word ‘genocide’ which almost pits Bouncer v Bouncer.

The truth is (from my viewpoint at least) that @egb wins the definition argument, but the rest are united in believing Hamas are almost indescribable butchers happy to sacrifice innocents for little reason, whilst the IDF are equably culpable in viewing innocents as necessary collateral damage.

It’s an inhuman and disgusting situation, which we all agree. Arguing over a word ‘genocide’ ….. is that our best position?

I have to be honest now……….. why the fuck are there still hostages? To what end?



It’s all beyond my comprehension.
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Have a read of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_genocide

Egbs definition is based on a misconception and a very narrow interpretation of the word.
 
gun ainm said:
Credit to you for assuming there is some humanity in Starmer, I'm afraid his cowardice and silence in the face of genocide is not what the UK or the wider world needs from a leader
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Are you saying Keir Starmer possesses no humanity?
 
gun ainm said:
Have a read of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_genocide

Egbs definition is based on a misconception and a very narrow interpretation of the word.
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It's literally what the word is. Geno. Cide.

Perhaps you will be the first to explain why it means something other than what it quite literally conveys in it's semantic formation; and in your own words not with with links to ideological spinners?
 
egb_hibs said:
It's literally what the word is. Geno. Cide.

Perhaps you will be the first to explain why it means something other than what it quite literally conveys in it's semantic formation; and in your own words not with with links to ideological spinners?
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I'm not interested in debating the definition with you, you've put your pov, I agree with Amnesty and others and disagree with you. It's clear your not going to change your mind, you've responded clearly before reading never mind thinking about what I posted

I'm respectfully suggesting the good Doc considers that, you're a lost cause amigo
 
egb_hibs said:
Is this in general or only when he doesn't comply with the blood lust of particular mobs?
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Generally I think he's a coward, a despicable man. Specifically I think this is particularly true in his response to the genocide in Gaza.
 
This is from the UN's genocide prevention function. Perhaps it may be subject to future edits given they have driven out their special adviser on the subject for refusal to accept the misapplication of charges of genocide to Israel;

'To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Cultural destruction does not suffice, nor does an intention to simply disperse a group. It is this special intent, or dolus specialis, that makes the crime of genocide so unique. In addition, case law has associated intent with the existence of a State or organizational plan or policy, even if the definition of genocide in international law does not include that element.

Importantly, the victims of genocide are deliberately targeted - not randomly – because of their real or perceived membership of one of the four groups protected under the Convention (which excludes political groups, for example). This means that the target of destruction must be the group, as such, and not its members as individuals. Genocide can also be committed against only a part of the group, as long as that part is identifiable (including within a geographically limited area) and “substantial.”''

www.un.org

Definitions of Genocide and Related Crimes | United Nations

www.un.org www.un.org
 
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Doc Shrink said:
Aye, fair point.

It seems the word has more than one meaning, but in all its interpretations it's a fuckin horror story.
Maybe we can all agree on that.
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It's not a fair point Doc, with all due respect. The 'argument' put forward by these ideologues not only fails the criteria of their own specialists, and those of the fella that coined the term, but would apply to all parties in ww2.

Are we really going to fail to distinguish the nazis from the others in order to gratify those who share many of their preoccupations?

Not me.
 
gun ainm said:
Not really, that's akin to asking me which of my children would I prefer murdered
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So you don't want someone who doesnt act in line with the simpleton formulae of progressivism but nor do you want someone who does.

What do you want then?
 
Doc Shrink said:
Aye, fair point.

It seems the word has more than one meaning, but in all its interpretations it's a fuckin horror story.
Maybe we can all agree on that.
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Yeah. I don't really feel the need to agree with M though I like him, I value his posts and opinions on other topics but on this I believe he's lost the plot. I've tried to find common ground it isnae possible.
 
Although in the scope of the horrors performed by both sides, it really makes no difference about the term genocide, I’d be surprised that if this really was genocide by Israel that the job wasn’t already done.
What are they waiting on?
 
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