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gun ainm said:
Yeah. I don't really feel the need to agree with M though I like him, I value his posts and opinions on other topics but on this I believe he's lost the plot. I've tried to find common ground it isnae possible.
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You remain free to explain why, rather than delegating to links which do nothing to refute the meaning of the words as it is formed, the intent of the man who coined it, nor its current interpretation by the UN group tasked with genocide prevention.

It's very easy to follow unquestioningly R, and assume that if every celeb or media airhead metaphorically pats you on the head, that constitutes right. It doesn't though. Call me old fashioned but I feel a man should be able to explain himself if he makes statements on such grave matters.

I'm doing that from the unpopular side of the argument, why is it so difficult to do so from the platform of rectitude?
 
barney said:
Although in the scope of the horrors performed by both sides, it really makes no difference about the term genocide, I’d be surprised that if this really was genocide by Israel that the job wasn’t already done.
What are they waiting on?
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Their govt ministers have explicitly said their policy is one of eradication but they are having to push the boundaries of acceptability with western governments via gradualism and influence of the media narrative.
 
barney said:
Although in the scope of the horrors performed by both sides, it really makes no difference about the term genocide, I’d be surprised that if this really was genocide by Israel that the job wasn’t already done.
What are they waiting on?
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Well quite. Given what a dab hand they are with technology, and what evil geniuses we are told they are, they're surprisingly crap genocidalists given Palestinians have outpaced world population growth by about 2.5x while their genociding has been underway.
 
gun ainm said:
Their govt ministers have explicitly said their policy is one of eradication but they are having to push the boundaries of acceptability with western governments via gradualism and influence of the media narrative.
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If you are suggesting that government ministers have declared an intent to eradicate the Palestinian people, meaning their physical destruction, I'm going to have to ask you for sources.
 
egb_hibs said:
If you are suggesting that government ministers have declared an intent to eradicate the Palestinian people, meaning their physical destruction, I'm going to have to ask you for sources.
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www.timesofisrael.com

Smotrich says Gaza to be ‘totally destroyed,’ population ‘concentrated’ in small area

Ultranationalist minister says population will be 'totally despairing' and want to leave the Strip, also predicts West Bank will be annexed before end of government's term
www.timesofisrael.com www.timesofisrael.com
 
www.timesofisrael.com

Smotrich says Gaza to be ‘totally destroyed,’ population ‘concentrated’ in small area

Ultranationalist minister says population will be 'totally despairing' and want to leave the Strip, also predicts West Bank will be annexed before end of government's term
www.timesofisrael.com www.timesofisrael.com
Perhaps this is another example where words don't mean what they appear to mean but that says nothing about destroying the Palestinian people. It does talk about destruction of the Hamas state as a political entity, and it does talk about the destruction of infrastructure that allows it to operate. The first is rather understandable imo, the second a lot more dubious given its impact, but a) sadly standard stuff in an existential war and b) not genocide.

I think if you are going to make such dangerous claims you should be pretty sure of your sources and your understanding of them.

While I'm glad to see you have - I assume, by implication - moved on from preferring the actually genocidal USSR to the USA, I'm not sure I could have foreseen a younger Gun Ainm rumbling on about Jewish manipulation of the media etc. In fact iirc you thought I'd lost the plot back then, also, in remarking on the fag paper separating the far left from sections of their spectrum they insisted on calling the far right.
 
My position is this, as a reminder to those who can only see things in tribal camps;

I condemn some of the things Israel actually does do in terms of slaughter and damage they are prepared to incur to get at their targets, while also admitting to not knowing what they are actually supposed to do in this situation. I also condemn the actions of soldiers, Settlers and other individuals who have committed targeted atrocities. I would do the same with any party, whether or not I have any sympathy with their ultimate objectives.

If Israel actually did undertake a genocide, I'd absolutely condemn that, which is a whole different order of thing. But they haven't undertaken such a project and I see no likelihood they intend to.

I also condemn the latter day blood libel that presents Israel as a unique evil in the world, controlling governments and the media in other countries, while in pursuit of secret world or regional domination plans. And I condemn false and demonising allegations that go with that. All of that is present on this thread and is a commonplace in our society.

I don't have to, or at least shouldn't have to, tell you whose playbook that is straight out of. I also shouldn't have to point out that the population of Germany in the 1920s and 1930s didn't wake up on day, decide to be evil and support an actual genocide. They got there in increments through demonisation, blood libels, unique evils and propaganda.

We are back in the 1920s in many ways, and I think people need to be careful when playing with fire.
 
egb_hibs said:
www.timesofisrael.com

Smotrich says Gaza to be ‘totally destroyed,’ population ‘concentrated’ in small area

Ultranationalist minister says population will be 'totally despairing' and want to leave the Strip, also predicts West Bank will be annexed before end of government's term
www.timesofisrael.com www.timesofisrael.com
Perhaps this is another example where words don't mean what they appear to mean but that says nothing about destroying the Palestinian people. It does talk about destruction of the Hamas state as a political entity, and it does talk about the destruction of infrastructure that allows it to operate. The first is rather understandable imo, the second a lot more dubious given its impact, but a) sadly standard stuff in an existential war and b) not genocide.
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You're over generous in your absolution, that interpretation is quite something.

Gaza will be totally destroyed....They will be totally despairing, understanding that there is no hope and nothing to look for in Gaza, and will be looking for relocation to begin a new life in other places.” ....We are finally going to occupy the Gaza Strip. We will stop being afraid of the word ‘occupation,'” he had said, and added that after occupying the Strip, “we can talk about sovereignty.

for a moderately thoughtful man you have a startling capacity to miss the obvious.

egb_hibs said:
I think if you are going to make such dangerous claims you should be pretty sure of your sources and your understanding of them.

While I'm glad to see you have - I assume, by implication - moved on from preferring the actually genocidal USSR to the USA, I'm not sure I could have foreseen a younger Gun Ainm rumbling on about Jewish manipulation of the media etc. In fact iirc you thought I'd lost the plot back then, also, in remarking on the fag paper separating the far left from sections of their spectrum they insisted on calling the far right.
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Oh FFS pointing out the Israeli government have a Comms strategy and a well resourced and influential lobby group is now antisemitic conspiracy is it? A thoughtcrime perhaps. Desperate.
 
gun ainm said:
You're over generous in your absolution, that interpretation is quite something.

Gaza will be totally destroyed....They will be totally despairing, understanding that there is no hope and nothing to look for in Gaza, and will be looking for relocation to begin a new life in other places.” ....We are finally going to occupy the Gaza Strip. We will stop being afraid of the word ‘occupation,'” he had said, and added that after occupying the Strip, “we can talk about sovereignty.

for a moderately thoughtful man you have a startling capacity to miss the obvious.
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And yet you quote a passage which is aligned to my description of the article. Perhaps you will quote the passage that caused you to cite it; alleged plans to eradicate the Palestinians?

What he quite obviously does imply is they want Palestinians to go elsewhere. Perhaps they are hoping to emulate Hamas by using shame to spur their neighbours into action?

In any case i have no issue with you condemning such a plan, but its not a genocidal plan, in fact this kind of thing is explictly addressed and excluded in the UN genocide prevention definition I quoted above.
gun ainm said:
Oh FFS pointing out the Israeli government have a Comms strategy and a well resourced and influential lobby group is now antisemitic conspiracy is it? A thoughtcrime perhaps. Desperate.
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Every government has a comms strategy. That's not quite the same as saying they have voiced intent to eradicate Palestinians by not voicing intent to eradicate Palestinians, then hoped no-one will notice their non statement and instead be gulled by their crafty orchestration of narratives. You know what kind of tropes that evokes. Which would be fine to acknowledge and proceed anyway were it in fact true. But given it doesn't say what you claimed, not so much.

Why are you not content to criticise them for what they have actually said and done? That's my issue in summary. Two young people were murdered in the US this morning by a far left bam no doubt immersed in demonising rhetoric. It matters,
 
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And so it begins, israel to establish 22 new settlements in the occupied west bank . Wonder what the wests opinion of that will be .
 
So the aid stations are closed while israel and the usa decide on whats next , while more palestinians die of starvation 😡
Can the UN not take control or do they not have sodjers any more 🤷‍♂️
 
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Nice to see them being told the truth!
 
Israel just intercepted a ship in International waters which was heading to Gaza with aid, including baby formula for children being starved to death.
How? Why? When will anything be done about these bastards?
 
Bangkokhibby said:
Israel just intercepted a ship in International waters which was heading to Gaza with aid, including baby formula for children being starved to death.
How? Why? When will anything be done about these bastards?
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Not as long as trumps alive
 
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EH17 Jimmy said:
I'm sure I read that the aid that was there got passed on.
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And it seems to be getting reported there was about one lorry load, the publicity seemed to be the main thing. It docked somewhere without permission and was moved. Greta was shown a video of the raid on Israel by Hamas which wouldn't be pleasant viewing. There was much more aid coming from elsewhere without the fanfair.
 
Davy said:
And it seems to be getting reported there was about one lorry load, the publicity seemed to be the main thing. It docked somewhere without permission and was moved. Greta was shown a video of the raid on Israel by Hamas which wouldn't be pleasant viewing. There was much more aid coming from elsewhere without the fanfair.
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It's reported that some of them her included refused to watch the video.

But she scranned the roll she got offered.
 
gun ainm said:
There's surely easier ways to get publicity, she could do strictly or eat bugs in the jungle.. Greta is one of those people who holds up a mirror to our own inaction and venality, it's uncomfortable so she cops it hard. Persevere Greta 👍
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Seriously R? To me she has undermined both environmental and Palestinian related concerns by drawing a fat red line under the suspicion that much of this is a rentacause performance for privileged children.

She has done a decent job in raising awareness over environmentalism. That job is long done and solutions are what matter now. Unless she has any, she'd be better going home and contributing to a sustainable world by getting a job / and or having kids. I mean its not like she's in this for her ego is it?
 
egb_hibs said:
Seriously R? To me she has undermined both environmental and Palestinian related concerns by drawing a fat red line under the suspicion that much of this is a rentacause performance for privileged children.

She has done a decent job in raising awareness over environmentalism. That job is long done and solutions are what matter now. Unless she has any, she'd be better going home and contributing to a sustainable world by getting a job / and or having kids. I mean its not like she's in this for her ego is it?
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Oh now come on Egb, wheres your compassion. We stole her childhood
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gun ainm said:
There's surely easier ways to get publicity, she could do strictly or eat bugs in the jungle.. Greta is one of those people who holds up a mirror to our own inaction and venality, it's uncomfortable so she cops it hard. Persevere Greta 👍
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It's more fun than getting a job tbf.

As an aside, in the early 13th century, a precocious 12 year old named Stephen managed though the strength of his vision - and despite scepticism from the church and opposition from the crown - to persuade 30000 less conservatively minded adults and children to set off on crusade.

Along the arduous way to the Holy Land, many of the more mature adherents concluded 'sod this' and went home. The remaining juvenile cohort were ensnared by wily merchants and sold into slavery or drowned at sea.


Some things change, some things stay the same.

The only discomfort I feel here is at grown adults who forego the complexity of the real world and adult responsibility, in preference to the simplistic babble of a manipulated kid. It's seriously and genuinely perturbing tbh. Pity those poor miss world contestants, born before their time, who rabbited on about world peace in a world not yet ready for their insight and wisdom.
 
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Davy said:
Oh now come on Egb, wheres your compassion. We stole her childhood
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I read once that her parents or someone else had to sit her down to address her genuine mystifcation that the world hadn't turned in response to her demands. Fuck knows who is funding her jamborees but she is used by people who dont seem to give a fuck that she is not playing with a standard deck, and frankly doesnt seem to understand what she is doing; and at who knows what consequence to her health in due course.

She is right actually, that her future was stolen in some ways; largely by prior generations who chose to consume rather than procreate and to use the poor as a compensating but environmentally unsustainable baby-farm.

If she's actually serious, her path is clear. I wonder if her string pullers have ever joined the dots for her.
 
I've always been of the opinion that she was being used by adults to further their agendas.
 
Doc Shrink said:
I think she said she expected the ship to be intercepted, so other than publicity I’m not sure what her purpose was.
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You've answered your own question. With the addendum that it looks fun.

Tbh when I was 22, if some billionaire had sponsored me to go on an adventure cruise in the sunshine, with a side order of adulation from the right on equivalent of princess Di groupies and at zero risk to myself, I think i may taken that over 24 hour shifts of grinding work as was my then milieu. Or even 8 hours ones, come to that.

Perhaps that's just me.

Holidays in the sun by the pistols comes to mind.
 
Is she 22? I thought she was only 12, she should know better. :coffee1:
 
egb_hibs said:
Seriously R? To me she has undermined both environmental and Palestinian related concerns by drawing a fat red line under the suspicion that much of this is a rentacause performance for privileged children.

She has done a decent job in raising awareness over environmentalism. That job is long done and solutions are what matter now. Unless she has any, she'd be better going home and contributing to a sustainable world by getting a job / and or having kids. I mean its not like she's in this for her ego is it?
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Naive is the opposite of jaded, I don't mind some idealism, it's not so much that folk don't know there's a climate crisis or humanitarian catastrophe, iwe even know the solutions, it's that people aren't doing much about it and if Attenborough and Greta help energise action fair play to them, if only govts really were trying to do something rather than sitting on their hands. Attention might shame them into it.

Shr has plenty time to work and have kids, she's a kid herself just now. I don't know why she cops so much flak tbh....compare to people who actually harm others and the world?
 
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