Israel
- Thread starter egb_hibs
- Start date
Stand with palenstine
egb_hibs
Private Member
You and I know nothing of living in that so claiming no good is irrelevant
Is your post based on the current news ?
Just there has been no similar post about Israeli bombs into Palestine?
Sheesh you can ram up your hole aswell
egb_hibs
Private Member
Passions running high, I see.
Israel does some terrible things, but then Hamas cynically uses human shields. Their own explicit mass targeting of civilians today is just going to cause a downward spiral, with Palestinian civilians no doubt paying a heavy price.
I don’t have to live there to see that no good will come of it.
Israel does some terrible things, but then Hamas cynically uses human shields. Their own explicit mass targeting of civilians today is just going to cause a downward spiral, with Palestinian civilians no doubt paying a heavy price.
I don’t have to live there to see that no good will come of it.
How dare people fight for their land eh.
Where has this been seen before ?
Against the fully forced invader.
Like I said before , I have not seen 1 post from you about Palestinian women shot in the street , children shot in the street , groups shot in the street by the Israeli army , or about bombs into gaza . Literally fuck all until today when news broke hamas dropped bombs . And even still you failed to mention Israel have also dropped bombs today.
Where has this been seen before ?
Against the fully forced invader.
Like I said before , I have not seen 1 post from you about Palestinian women shot in the street , children shot in the street , groups shot in the street by the Israeli army , or about bombs into gaza . Literally fuck all until today when news broke hamas dropped bombs . And even still you failed to mention Israel have also dropped bombs today.
egb_hibs
Private Member
The miserable tit for tat in Israel / Palestine doesn’t hold the fascination for me it does for others. Another intractable mess in a blighted region.
But this is something else entirely - and risks the whole thing snowballing into new levels of horror. If Ukraine did this to Russians they’d lose a lot of sympathy from me, despite what Russia is doing.
Hamas - an organisation that had (maybe still has) a genocidal covenant that borrows heavily from Nazi tropes - has done a lot more than drop bombs today. Pity the Palestinian people not just for Israel’s actions, but for being used as human bait by Syria for decades, and now presided over, in some areas, by these cranks.
But this is something else entirely - and risks the whole thing snowballing into new levels of horror. If Ukraine did this to Russians they’d lose a lot of sympathy from me, despite what Russia is doing.
Hamas - an organisation that had (maybe still has) a genocidal covenant that borrows heavily from Nazi tropes - has done a lot more than drop bombs today. Pity the Palestinian people not just for Israel’s actions, but for being used as human bait by Syria for decades, and now presided over, in some areas, by these cranks.
egb_hibs
Private Member
Israelis have been cancelled more thoroughly and for longer than any other nationality, sometimes spilling over into Jews in general.
Interested to see how this conflict fits into your curious mix of Nazis-under-the-bed conspiracies and Nazi conspiracies.
I deplore the violence perpetrated by Hama's. Context is important it not an excuse, We have an Israeli Government that has been teetering in the edge of totalitarianism for a while now, the far right nationalists in the coalition (Ben-Gvir and his ilk) will be loving this, their provocations have been designed to trigger this in order to wreak their revenge and further their power.. eventually they have worked. The atrocities that are currently raining down on the Palestinian people are also deplorable, in some ways more so as they come from an occupying power.
As a footnote I see Jordan Peterson on twitter calling in the Israelis to give them hell. How good folk on here can admire that fucker I can't fathom.
As a footnote I see Jordan Peterson on twitter calling in the Israelis to give them hell. How good folk on here can admire that fucker I can't fathom.
Dodgers flying a banner yesterday supporting Palestine. No sure if this was before the Hamas attack.
Jayarreff1875
Just A Radge
It was after.
The attack happened about 5am yesterday UK time, about 10 hours prior to kick off.
I've no doubt that some people will strongly disagree but I find it totally unacceptable.
There are of course legitimate reasons for supporting the wider Palestinian cause, but I think unfurling a banner like that yesterday was wholly inappropriate and definitely has no place inside a football stadium. It's possible to support the Palestinian people but completely condemn what happened yesterday - put it simply this was a terrorist attack. Members of the public have been executed on the street, others have been kidnapped and are now being held as hostages.
Condemning this does not mean you are abandoning the wider support of the Palestinians. The two things are not mutually exclusive.
Smurf
Private Member
Well said.
Bangkokhibby
Private Member
I can assure you these flag waving pricks couldn't point to Palestine on a map, far less be able to enter into a discussion about the rights/wrongs/morals/history of the situation.
Dier - 1558
Private Member
Having visited this area, the religious and ideological hatred amongst some is as bad as bigotry and sectarianism is here. Though their loss of life responses are only what we remember from the conflict in Ireland. What’s unfortunate is they are not totally diametrically opposed to each other, just certain factions. It’s a powder keg that has effects elsewhere.
Dier - 1558
Private Member
Archie
Private Member
This is so depressing. The consequence free posturing on this is nauseating. No doubt there will be Israeli flags at the Rangers game today. What a world.
When I look at issues like this I try to see a route to peace. I can't see one here. To help me, can people with more knowledge or investment in the issues spell out what could bring peace?
When I look at issues like this I try to see a route to peace. I can't see one here. To help me, can people with more knowledge or investment in the issues spell out what could bring peace?
Dier - 1558
Private Member
As long as you have religious difference, ideological and physical occupation and political motivation - there won’t be peace.
what’s the answer, don’t know.
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Dier - 1558
Private Member
Anyway it could be worse………………… being a Hun or a Jambo.
Bangkokhibby
Private Member
Humans are just another species of animal. We've invented religion, laws, punishment, to keep us in check but nothing works, either internally or Internationally. We're worse than MOST animals. Greedy, selfish, uncaring, cruel bastards. There will never be world peace as long as humans exist. Don't worry, you'll be dead in the blink of geological time's eye and you won't need to worry anymore.
Jack
Private Member
I wonder if Israel had been properly held to account for breaking/ignoring a shed load of UN resolutions there might be some form of peace in the region?
Without international support/apathy Israel would have had to find a way of living peaceably with their neighbours i.e. no land grab, blockade etc.. With Israel being a non aggressive neighbour factions, like Hamas, might have gained little traction within the communities.
Without international support/apathy Israel would have had to find a way of living peaceably with their neighbours i.e. no land grab, blockade etc.. With Israel being a non aggressive neighbour factions, like Hamas, might have gained little traction within the communities.
Dier - 1558
Private Member
Good points Jack.
Dier - 1558
Private Member
A very succinct assessment of our human race.
jetsam1
Radge McRadge of Radge End
Road to peace in the world? You will have to fundamentally change humanity I'm afraid. Stop greedy psychopaths using hatred as an easy way to get and maintain power and those happy to go along with it if it makes them feel strong and good.
Hatred is easy. Easy to whip up because at heart we are still basically angry chimps with minimal impulse control. It is conisistently the tool that gets wheeled out again and again. There will be no peace in that part of the Middle East because the basic issues are intractable and those in charge want this to continue on both sides as it keeps them secure in their positions even as they mess things up.
Plus religion, ethnicity and victim complexes. Big one is religion here. I really have no more patience for ultra religious knobs pushing their ideology on the world and creating hate and division. All sides use this as a justification. This is happening in Europe as well feeling like a Catholic counter revolution building up.
But this is just humans behaving as humans have always behaved. On a population scale this is normal throughout history and nothing is likely to change frankly. And in Western Europe which hasn't had a land war within it since the end of WW2 many have forgotton the lessons and want to take us back to the chaos of the last few centuries. What is happening in Palestine/Israel is simply want has always happened we just have the internet and TV etc to hear about it in real time. Otherwise business as usual for the human species. Hate and greed is what it is and always has been fundamentally.
Hatred is easy. Easy to whip up because at heart we are still basically angry chimps with minimal impulse control. It is conisistently the tool that gets wheeled out again and again. There will be no peace in that part of the Middle East because the basic issues are intractable and those in charge want this to continue on both sides as it keeps them secure in their positions even as they mess things up.
Plus religion, ethnicity and victim complexes. Big one is religion here. I really have no more patience for ultra religious knobs pushing their ideology on the world and creating hate and division. All sides use this as a justification. This is happening in Europe as well feeling like a Catholic counter revolution building up.
But this is just humans behaving as humans have always behaved. On a population scale this is normal throughout history and nothing is likely to change frankly. And in Western Europe which hasn't had a land war within it since the end of WW2 many have forgotton the lessons and want to take us back to the chaos of the last few centuries. What is happening in Palestine/Israel is simply want has always happened we just have the internet and TV etc to hear about it in real time. Otherwise business as usual for the human species. Hate and greed is what it is and always has been fundamentally.
Bangkokhibby
Private Member
I didn't always feel this way but age, experience, and for me anyway integrating into a Buddhist culture helps you to stop worrying and just accept.
Spanish-hibs
Well-Known Radge
Israel had been stealing land on the West Bank now for ages with new settlements opening daily. The UK support for Israel is a disgrace. Fuck them all Free Palistine
Smurf
Private Member
So all the blame is on Israel?
jetsam1
Radge McRadge of Radge End
There is a power disparity there as Israel is a modern and well equipped military power. But as no one is interested in solving any of the problems in the region it is a moot point about blame. And as always it is the normal people caught in the cross fire who suffer whilst those instigating and using this for their own positions (I don't believe the militant Palestinian groups are immune from the usual power struggles and jockying for position that drive mad things) sit back in comfort and feel all powerful and strong.
Remember that on the left Palestine has been THE cause for decades and it is almost a way of life it seems like. Another part of the whole edifice that will keep this conflict trundling along indefinately.
egb_hibs
Private Member
It’s difficult to know, especially when you strip away the kind of glib rhetoric that the likes of Corbyn specialise in, and consider what could happen if his proposals were adopted. Israel is surrounded by countries representing tens of millions who want to see it smashed. The faux naïveté that claims otherwise won’t cut the mustard with the Israelis not least given Jews and Christians have been slaughtered and / or purged across the Middle East over the course of c20 (starting before Israel was established).
If it cedes ground occupied since the last time they attempted to do, I expect they feel that puts them at further risk.
The Palestinians are in a no win situation either - I mean Syria could have rehoused them decades ago, but it didn’t, indeed have perpetrated their own atrocities on refugee camps. Cyprus hasn’t left it’s northern population as a human sacrifice to contest the Turkish occupation, but Syria I guess is a different animal, as are other potential rescuers like Jordan.
Historical claims - well pick your poison. The Palestinian population are largely a legacy of the Islamic conquests, which displaced or subsumed natives at the point of a sword (some Christian populations remain of course, though if the rest of the region is a guide, wouldn’t last long after a Palestinian victory).
However, they have also been there 1300 years, even longer than the first British colonialists in Ireland, and natives who assimilated with them, and a lot longer than Europeans in the Americas. That can’t just be undone, and Israelis returned after centuries in exile can neither have their condition ignored, nor have it take precedence over Palestinians due to events from thousands of years ago.
Moreover, now that the PLO has been partially supplanted by an Islamist / Nazi death cult - which treats Palestinians abysmally, not least gays - any possibility of a settlement looks ever more remote. It was possible to imagine Israel and the PLO hypothetically reaching an agreement, but Hamas want to wipe out the Jews. And as I say, Jews and Christian’s have been chased all over, with renewed vigour as secularist dictatorships have toppled and Islamic rule ascended - though nowhere as barbarically as the Turkish secularists did either.
Israel is of course, the conflict and its atrocities aside, head and shoulders above anywhere else in the region as a modern liberal society. But the conflict exists, the atrocities exist, and they are part of the Israeli accounts, as it were.
Fuck knows how it ends. If the west ever abandons Israel it would probably end up in a genocide. If they don’t, it will just go on and on, with the Palestinians crushed between all sides. A mess - but then such messes exist around the world, and they go on, and on, and on. There’s sadly nothing unique about it, except for the very particular attention it gets, which remains mysterious.
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Bangkokhibby
Private Member
egb_hibs
Private Member
A catholic counter revolution ? A bunch of old dears swinging hand bags ?!
It remains the case that religion is present in a very small proportion of historical wars, and in almost all of them, ‘religion’ is one particular religion. Secular ideologies have been massively more murderous and aggressive.
“I want what you have” is the actual cause of most wars and it’s all over Israel and Palestine.
The Israelis want a homeland after being butchered in Europe, but unfortunately there were people already there. The Arab world seethes with resentment that Israel has turned one of the least promising strips of real estate in the region into its most advanced country by far, and also benefit from a scapegoat for their own failures. Caught in the middle, the Palestinians wants to remain on the land their antecedents conquered back in the mists of time.
Base human instinct is all over it, but it’s not as simple as dismissing as human greed.
egb_hibs
Private Member
You expect one of the world’s most intractable problems to be resolved on the Hibeesbounce? Best go back to sleep I think!Sorry nodded off for a bit there. So you have no answer to his question
Archie
Private Member
I think it's better to acknowledge when you don't know the solution rather than come up with something glib.
Bangkokhibby
Private Member
Read back, I've already said there's no solution because we're human. He said he couldn't come up with a solution after many paragraphs. Sometimes your glib = reality
egb_hibs
Private Member
you don’t like complexity fair enough, but that doesn’t equate to glib equalling reality.
Those of us who are safely uninvolved can choose to buff our self righteousness by ignoring reality; those on the ground can’t. It’s also not a good thing at all and as a mindset is deeply implicated in the history of human slaughter.
‘Four legs good, two legs bad’ might save us from the taxing business of thinking, but it invariably ends up one way.
Bangkokhibby
Private Member
I have no idea what you're talking about.
It's easier to point to why peace is1m difficult to achieve and egb makes some reasonable observations even if he practically dehumanises the Palestinians.
There are no simple answers but for me the 2 things we should be doing are
1) working to ensure democracy is secured and extended in Israel - this is a live issue and very much not a given see for example https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/02/23/yuval-noah-harari-israel-democracy-disaster/
2) American power to push harder at Israel to make concessions before their star also wanes, that means tackling their strong lobby at home
