Israel

[egb_hibs]

As chance would have it, an opportunity to quote The Times, on the intersection between Palestine and the left:

“
I don’t mean — and it is important to emphasise this — why is there criticism of Israel’s actions on the left. This criticism is sometimes (certainly not always) unfair and sometimes (again not always) ignorant, but it most certainly has its place in mainstream debate. This includes even sharp or outraged attacks on Israel’s actions in Gaza. I don’t have to agree with these to acknowledge their place in legitimate discourse.

What I mean is why do Labour candidates, councillors and MPs, and people to the left of them, so often advance obsessive and cranky views on Israel? Such as believing it deliberately allowed the Hamas massacre to provide permission to murder Palestinians, or that it uses Jewish media control to attack Labour MPs?

The right place to start, I think, is with Lenin. More precisely, with Lenin’s theory of imperialism. At around the time of the Russian revolution, the Bolshevik leader advanced his idea of the final stage of capitalism. His view was that the survival of capitalism was dependent on the profits of imperial adventure. End these profits and you could end capitalism.

From this derived the left’s idea that it should ally with anti-colonial resistance movements, whatever their broader politics. These groups — in the modern era, Castro’s Cuba, Chávez’s Venezuela, Khomeini’s Iran — were at the front line of the battle against global capital. And this is the only battle that really matters, the one from which all freedoms derive.

So it doesn’t matter if a group jails opponents or rapes women or throws gay people from buildings. As long as they help bring down capitalism — which, as anti-imperialists, they do — they are liberating forces and their other faults will dissolve once capitalism dissolves. Even the murderous, oppressive Houthis are “heroes” according to this calculation.

And Hamas are “friends”, to use the word employed by Jeremy Corbyn. Because all international problems must be squeezed into the battle against imperialism and colonialism, Israel is an imperialist power. There is no apparent discomfort on the left at describing the last refuge for Jews driven out of every other country as a conquering power sustained by wealthy financiers to advance international capitalist control.

As Jake Wallis Simons notes in his recent book Israelophobia, most of the common left-wing attacks on Zionism derive from a deliberate Soviet propaganda effort. The story of that effort is well told by Gal Beckerman in his history of Soviet Jewry When They Come for Us, We’ll Be Gone.

Partly as a defence mechanism against Jews seeking to leave the Soviet Union for Israel, the Soviets developed in the 1960s and 1970s what the central committee called “The Plan for Basic Organisational and Propaganda Measures Connected with the Situation in the Middle East and the Intensifying Struggle with Zionism”. They often used communist Jews to deliver their message so that they could deny antisemitism, even though their general antisemitism was undeniable.

The Soviets said that every day brought “new reports of the Israeli military, reviving memories of Hitlerites”. The (now common on the left) comparison with the Nazis, and the use of terms such as genocide, is thus decades old and a communist invention. “Zionism,” they argued in a televised press conference, “expressed the chauvinistic views and racist ravings of the Jewish bourgeoisie.”

To this they added: “Zionists supply imperialism with cannon fodder in the struggle against the Arab people.” For in addition to the ideological reasons for their opposition to Israel, there were political and strategic ones. The Soviets wanted to recruit Arab governments and the Arab street to their side in the Cold War struggle with America. And virulent opposition to Israel helped them to do that.

Similar forces are at work on the modern left. The adoption of obsessive anti-Zionism and the entertainment of wild anti-Israel and anti-Jewish conspiracy theories partly derives from theories about capitalism, but partly from political convenience.”

Why the left has a problem with antisemitism

Sir Keir Starmer was right to drop his Rochdale candidate but he’ll find that paranoid conspiracies about Jews run deep

www.thetimes.co.uk

 

[egb_hibs]

The above author overlooks another elephant in the room, that this is also an inevitable product of racialised politics and Labour’s increasing dependence on Muslim votes. The left will reap what they have sown there because master and servant are going to change places in terms of electoral significance.

 

[GORDONSMITH7]

As chance would have it, an opportunity to quote The Times, on the intersection between Palestine and the left:

“
I don’t mean — and it is important to emphasise this — why is there criticism of Israel’s actions on the left. This criticism is sometimes (certainly not always) unfair and sometimes (again not always) ignorant, but it most certainly has its place in mainstream debate. This includes even sharp or outraged attacks on Israel’s actions in Gaza. I don’t have to agree with these to acknowledge their place in legitimate discourse.

What I mean is why do Labour candidates, councillors and MPs, and people to the left of them, so often advance obsessive and cranky views on Israel? Such as believing it deliberately allowed the Hamas massacre to provide permission to murder Palestinians, or that it uses Jewish media control to attack Labour MPs?

The right place to start, I think, is with Lenin. More precisely, with Lenin’s theory of imperialism. At around the time of the Russian revolution, the Bolshevik leader advanced his idea of the final stage of capitalism. His view was that the survival of capitalism was dependent on the profits of imperial adventure. End these profits and you could end capitalism.

From this derived the left’s idea that it should ally with anti-colonial resistance movements, whatever their broader politics. These groups — in the modern era, Castro’s Cuba, Chávez’s Venezuela, Khomeini’s Iran — were at the front line of the battle against global capital. And this is the only battle that really matters, the one from which all freedoms derive.

So it doesn’t matter if a group jails opponents or rapes women or throws gay people from buildings. As long as they help bring down capitalism — which, as anti-imperialists, they do — they are liberating forces and their other faults will dissolve once capitalism dissolves. Even the murderous, oppressive Houthis are “heroes” according to this calculation.

And Hamas are “friends”, to use the word employed by Jeremy Corbyn. Because all international problems must be squeezed into the battle against imperialism and colonialism, Israel is an imperialist power. There is no apparent discomfort on the left at describing the last refuge for Jews driven out of every other country as a conquering power sustained by wealthy financiers to advance international capitalist control.

As Jake Wallis Simons notes in his recent book Israelophobia, most of the common left-wing attacks on Zionism derive from a deliberate Soviet propaganda effort. The story of that effort is well told by Gal Beckerman in his history of Soviet Jewry When They Come for Us, We’ll Be Gone.

Partly as a defence mechanism against Jews seeking to leave the Soviet Union for Israel, the Soviets developed in the 1960s and 1970s what the central committee called “The Plan for Basic Organisational and Propaganda Measures Connected with the Situation in the Middle East and the Intensifying Struggle with Zionism”. They often used communist Jews to deliver their message so that they could deny antisemitism, even though their general antisemitism was undeniable.

The Soviets said that every day brought “new reports of the Israeli military, reviving memories of Hitlerites”. The (now common on the left) comparison with the Nazis, and the use of terms such as genocide, is thus decades old and a communist invention. “Zionism,” they argued in a televised press conference, “expressed the chauvinistic views and racist ravings of the Jewish bourgeoisie.”

To this they added: “Zionists supply imperialism with cannon fodder in the struggle against the Arab people.” For in addition to the ideological reasons for their opposition to Israel, there were political and strategic ones. The Soviets wanted to recruit Arab governments and the Arab street to their side in the Cold War struggle with America. And virulent opposition to Israel helped them to do that.

Similar forces are at work on the modern left. The adoption of obsessive anti-Zionism and the entertainment of wild anti-Israel and anti-Jewish conspiracy theories partly derives from theories about capitalism, but partly from political convenience.”

Why the left has a problem with antisemitism

Sir Keir Starmer was right to drop his Rochdale candidate but he’ll find that paranoid conspiracies about Jews run deep

www.thetimes.co.uk

You start by saying that by chance you quote from the Tory backing Times then follow it up later by saying, the above author. Perhaps it would have been more transparent if you had said that in fact it was written by Daniel Finkelstein, Baron Finkelstein, Conservative Party peer, past editor in chief of the Tory Times, chair of two right wing, so called Think Tanks. His articles in support of the genocidal actions of the Israeli government in Gaza in both the Jewish Chronicle and Jewish Telegraph rags are legend.
The article is a combination of right wing rhetoric and a mish mash of not very well thought out bias.
His starting point of his 'analysis' starts with Lenin says the Tory peer!
"The right place to start, I think, is with Lenin. More precisely, with Lenin’s theory of imperialism. At around the time of the Russian revolution, the Bolshevik leader advanced his idea of the final stage of capitalism. His view was that the survival of capitalism was dependent on the profits of imperial adventure. End these profits and you could end capitalism."
I doubt if the learned Baron has ever read 'Imperialism: The Highest Stage of Capitalism' by Lenin, judging from his profundity in italcs.
For the benefit of the berobed Conservative bufoon or any of his co thinkers on here for that matter, here is a brief, chapter by chapter, easy to understand reading guide.

Imperialism: The Highest Stage of Capitalism – a reading guide | The Communist

We present here a reading guide to Imperialism: The Highest Stage of Capitalism, which can help comrades digest the key ideas from this classic text by Lenin.

communist.red

BIG G

 

[egb_hibs]

You start by saying that by chance you quote from the Tory backing Times then follow it up later by saying, the above author. Perhaps it would have been more transparent if you had said that in fact it was written by Daniel Finkelstein, Baron Finkelstein, Conservative Party peer, past editor in chief of the Tory Times, chair of two right wing, so called Think Tanks. His articles in support of the genocidal actions of the Israeli government in Gaza in both the Jewish Chronicle and Jewish Telegraph rags are legend.
The article is a combination of right wing rhetoric and a mish mash of not very well thought out bias.
His starting point of his 'analysis' starts with Lenin says the Tory peer!
"The right place to start, I think, is with Lenin. More precisely, with Lenin’s theory of imperialism. At around the time of the Russian revolution, the Bolshevik leader advanced his idea of the final stage of capitalism. His view was that the survival of capitalism was dependent on the profits of imperial adventure. End these profits and you could end capitalism."
I doubt if the learned Baron has ever read 'Imperialism: The Highest Stage of Capitalism' by Lenin, judging from his profundity in italcs.
For the benefit of the berobed Conservative bufoon or any of his co thinkers on here for that matter, here is a brief, chapter by chapter, easy to understand reading guide.

Imperialism: The Highest Stage of Capitalism – a reading guide | The Communist

We present here a reading guide to Imperialism: The Highest Stage of Capitalism, which can help comrades digest the key ideas from this classic text by Lenin.

communist.red

BIG G

It never really occurred to me to check which school he went to tbh.

The bottom line is Gordon, the left is riddled with anti semitism. If you have a better explanation than his let’s hear it. You’d in any case be better directing your ire at comrades who disgrace the movement.

 

[Dub]

As chance would have it, an opportunity to quote The Times, on the intersection between Palestine and the left:

“
I don’t mean — and it is important to emphasise this — why is there criticism of Israel’s actions on the left. This criticism is sometimes (certainly not always) unfair and sometimes (again not always) ignorant, but it most certainly has its place in mainstream debate. This includes even sharp or outraged attacks on Israel’s actions in Gaza. I don’t have to agree with these to acknowledge their place in legitimate discourse.

What I mean is why do Labour candidates, councillors and MPs, and people to the left of them, so often advance obsessive and cranky views on Israel? Such as believing it deliberately allowed the Hamas massacre to provide permission to murder Palestinians, or that it uses Jewish media control to attack Labour MPs?

The right place to start, I think, is with Lenin. More precisely, with Lenin’s theory of imperialism. At around the time of the Russian revolution, the Bolshevik leader advanced his idea of the final stage of capitalism. His view was that the survival of capitalism was dependent on the profits of imperial adventure. End these profits and you could end capitalism.

From this derived the left’s idea that it should ally with anti-colonial resistance movements, whatever their broader politics. These groups — in the modern era, Castro’s Cuba, Chávez’s Venezuela, Khomeini’s Iran — were at the front line of the battle against global capital. And this is the only battle that really matters, the one from which all freedoms derive.

So it doesn’t matter if a group jails opponents or rapes women or throws gay people from buildings. As long as they help bring down capitalism — which, as anti-imperialists, they do — they are liberating forces and their other faults will dissolve once capitalism dissolves. Even the murderous, oppressive Houthis are “heroes” according to this calculation.

And Hamas are “friends”, to use the word employed by Jeremy Corbyn. Because all international problems must be squeezed into the battle against imperialism and colonialism, Israel is an imperialist power. There is no apparent discomfort on the left at describing the last refuge for Jews driven out of every other country as a conquering power sustained by wealthy financiers to advance international capitalist control.

As Jake Wallis Simons notes in his recent book Israelophobia, most of the common left-wing attacks on Zionism derive from a deliberate Soviet propaganda effort. The story of that effort is well told by Gal Beckerman in his history of Soviet Jewry When They Come for Us, We’ll Be Gone.

Partly as a defence mechanism against Jews seeking to leave the Soviet Union for Israel, the Soviets developed in the 1960s and 1970s what the central committee called “The Plan for Basic Organisational and Propaganda Measures Connected with the Situation in the Middle East and the Intensifying Struggle with Zionism”. They often used communist Jews to deliver their message so that they could deny antisemitism, even though their general antisemitism was undeniable.

The Soviets said that every day brought “new reports of the Israeli military, reviving memories of Hitlerites”. The (now common on the left) comparison with the Nazis, and the use of terms such as genocide, is thus decades old and a communist invention. “Zionism,” they argued in a televised press conference, “expressed the chauvinistic views and racist ravings of the Jewish bourgeoisie.”

To this they added: “Zionists supply imperialism with cannon fodder in the struggle against the Arab people.” For in addition to the ideological reasons for their opposition to Israel, there were political and strategic ones. The Soviets wanted to recruit Arab governments and the Arab street to their side in the Cold War struggle with America. And virulent opposition to Israel helped them to do that.

Similar forces are at work on the modern left. The adoption of obsessive anti-Zionism and the entertainment of wild anti-Israel and anti-Jewish conspiracy theories partly derives from theories about capitalism, but partly from political convenience.”

Why the left has a problem with antisemitism

Sir Keir Starmer was right to drop his Rochdale candidate but he’ll find that paranoid conspiracies about Jews run deep

www.thetimes.co.uk

I'll see your Times and raise you the New York Times which is pretty adamant that Israel knew the attack was coming and did nothing to prevent it.

Israel Knew Hamas’s Attack Plan More Than a Year Ago

 

[egb_hibs]

Gordon I'm genuinely bemused now. I skimmed through that article and I don't see why you judge Finkelsteins summary wrong with that article as evidence. It seems to me to corroborate him.

 

[egb_hibs]

I'll see your Times and raise you the New York Times which is pretty adamant that Israel knew the attack was coming and did nothing to prevent it.

Israel Knew Hamas’s Attack Plan More Than a Year Ago

Sadly NYT isn't a raise on the Sun these days never mind the Times.

This naive (to be charitable) article addressed here:

The NYT is wrong about Israeli intelligence

The IDF knew of Hamas's plan — and made the logical call

unherd.com

 

[Dub]

Sadly NYT isn't a raise on the Sun these days never mind the Times.

This naive (to be charitable) article addressed here:

The NYT is wrong about Israeli intelligence

The IDF knew of Hamas's plan — and made the logical call

unherd.com

"The New York Times has received 137 Pulitzer Prizes as of 2023, the most of any publication" yeah, clearly on a par with the Sun.

You seem to be continually relying on reports written by people with Jewish heritage and taking that as gospel.

 

[egb_hibs]

"The New York Times has received 137 Pulitzer Prizes as of 2023, the most of any publication" yeah, clearly on a par with the Sun.

You seem to be continually relying on reports written by people with Jewish heritage and taking that as gospel.

The NYT has over the last several years become infamous for trashing its historical status and becoming a mental woke propaganda sheet.

What has the ethnicity of journalists got to do with anything ? The guy took the NYT piece apart. Doesn’t matter what race he is.

 

[egb_hibs]

Ps @Dub - if so inclined you will find much comment on the above. Here is an example selected because it’s in another Liberal publication rather than a conservative one, and the writer is a former member of NYT editorial staff.

When the New York Times lost its way

America’s media should do more to equip readers to think for themselves

www.economist.com

 

[GORDONSMITH7]

Ps @Dub - if so inclined you will find much comment on the above. Here is an example selected because it’s in another Liberal publication rather than a conservative one, and the writer is a former member of NYT editorial staff.

When the New York Times lost its way

America’s media should do more to equip readers to think for themselves

www.economist.com

I don't give a monkeys about anything in the press, in the UK or internationally, regarding, genocide and ethnic cleansing propositions in Gaza. Which are being considered in the here and now.
The propaganda daily by the the Israeli government and backers in MSM Internationally is both disgusting and pathetic.
Read this Bouncers , a thought out analysis that cuts through the utter crap being fed to people by the International Establishment and any pygmy puts forward on here. Because it is written by the Revoluionary Communists that I support should have no baring on your standpoint.
I'd like if you could read it amigos and tell me on here if you think that the analysis is either outrageous or fair.

Rafah onslaught: The spark that could set the Middle East alight | The Communist

The people of Gaza are already facing a deadly nightmare. Spurred on by his own narrow political interests, however, Netanyahu is set to escalate the slaughter even further by invading the city of Rafah. The whole region is ready to explode.

communist.red

BIG G

 

[egb_hibs]

I don't give a monkeys about anything in the press, in the UK or internationally, regarding, genocide and ethnic cleansing propositions in Gaza. Which are being considered in the here and now.
The propaganda daily by the the Israeli government and backers in MSM Internationally is both disgusting and pathetic.
Read this Bouncers , a thought out analysis that cuts through the utter crap being fed to people by the International Establishment and any pygmy puts forward on here. Because it is written by the Revoluionary Communists that I support should have no baring on your standpoint.
I'd like if you could read it amigos and tell me on here if you think that the analysis is either outrageous or fair.

Rafah onslaught: The spark that could set the Middle East alight | The Communist

The people of Gaza are already facing a deadly nightmare. Spurred on by his own narrow political interests, however, Netanyahu is set to escalate the slaughter even further by invading the city of Rafah. The whole region is ready to explode.

communist.red

BIG G

I think it’s mental tbh. These guys really think that some kind of socialist revolution is going to be triggered across the region. Have they learned nothing?

The rest of it is the usual blinkered nonsense.

Who are the western imperialists ? Show me their empires. Where are they, seriously?

Why do they complain about the same sitting by and watching it unfold in Israel / Palestine and Yemen… but not Syria. Does a candle still burn for self declared (and acting on it) imperialist Putin?

The Israelis want to grab their promised land? No mention of the fact they accepted a two state solution at the start, and the Arabs did not?

Israel wants to repeat its genocidal successes from 1967? No mention that what this actually refers to is repel of an invasion of them by half the Arab world ?

Gullible Israelis are fooled by Netanyahu into believing a second holocaust is possible? And not that its Hamas stated aim to wipe them out, which they enact to the best of their abilities.

The usual Nazi comparisons, blah blah blah - straight out of soviet propaganda per the article you dismissed yesterday.

The scheming ‘Zionists’ are pursuing an eliminationist plan they’ve had since the ‘inception’ of the ‘project’? Like, the people who (once more) accepted a two state solution from the outset, and must by now know they’re not getting it with Hamas and Iran explicitly seeking their annihilation and hundreds of millions of others surrounding them not far behind? Might as well have Horst Wessel Lied playing in the background.

The situation in Rafah could become genuinely horrific, they’re not wrong there. But everything else is doctrinaire nonsense. If you reject the mainstream press and get your view solely from the likes of this, how is that different to Trumpers or even religious fundamentalists? How can you possibly expect to get any kind of decent view when you’re only reading people for whom everything is seen in alignment to a preordained script?

A handful of middle class students who want western style liberalism, are not going to produce a communist revolution. Any upheavals will see the left hanging from cranes in short order and mullahs in charge. Take it to the bank.

 

[egb_hibs]

Ps the bottom line is that article could equally be on a neo Nazi site. In fact it’ll probably be getting quoted on them. Nick Griffin is endorsing George Galloway for Rochdale. I wonder why.

 

[GORDONSMITH7]

Ps the bottom line is that article could equally be on a neo Nazi site. In fact it’ll probably be getting quoted on them. Nick Griffin is endorsing George Galloway for Rochdale. I wonder why.

Hilarious. I told a regular guy who posts on here after our St. Patrick's Branch Meeting, almost word for word, line by line the response from the Bounce right wing reactionary apologistsl in residence. I was spot on.
If anyone wishes to read it without blue tinted right wing specs. I'd be happy to here your comments as punters rather than hackneyed reaction.

BIG G

 

[egb_hibs]

Hilarious. I told a regular guy who posts on here after our St. Patrick's Branch Meeting, almost word for word, line by line the response from the Bounce right wing reactionary apologistsl in residence. I was spot on.
If anyone wishes to read it without blue tinted right wing specs. I'd be happy to here your comments as punters rather than hackneyed reaction.

BIG G

Which bits do you disagree with and why?

In respect of the bit you quoted, Herr Griffin’s support for gorgeous is referenced here, including a link to his tweet (I assume; I’m not giving cyclops the traffic by clicking on it)

‘The ultimate protest against Labour’: George Galloway’s bid to win Rochdale

Labour’s 9,668 majority in Greater Manchester seat challenged by Galloway’s Gaza-focused campaign

www.theguardian.com

I actually read the stuff you put to us. Well some of the time. And I usually haud ma wheest unless you ask for comment. I mean most of the time my prevailing feeling is I can’t believe folk are still at this in 2024.

That said, I’ll say this for the hard left. At least they continue to recognise the problems with global capitalism, which now mystifyingly is seen as right wing by the mainstream left. Not all the questions are wrong then, but the answers always were, and more than that belong to a world that is now gone forever.

Ps eventually, I’ll be wanting to join St Pats and you can rip me over a jar.

 

[egb_hibs]

I suspect amongst other reasons, this kinda thing is why the liberal west is less keen than the hard left to rally to the Houthi cause

Houthis in Yemen will publicly stone & crucify 9 gay men in “gruesome public spectacles”

The country will imprison or publicly flog 60 other suspected homosexuals.

www.lgbtqnation.com

 

[tayside hibee]

There's a.few intelligent, or at least well read folk on this site, and this thread in particular. But how some can seem/or want to pick a "good cop and a bad cop" in what is simply the human race showing how evil it can be, is quite astonishing, and telling to be honest.
Yet again, in the guise of relgion , men seem to take pleasure in killing others including chidren. Causing generations of hate and agony, all the time kicking the can down the road, to eventually do it all.again one day.
Reading between the lines, certain peop!e almost sound like the atrocities carried out by both sides are justifiable. When really what we are seeing is both sides being infected by evil, and then it appears to some, it's a pick a side time .I
Does one side cheer when the other takes a direct hit?

 

[egb_hibs]

There's a.few intelligent, or at least well read folk on this site, and this thread in particular. But how some can seem/or want to pick a "good cop and a bad cop" in what is simply the human race showing how evil it can be, is quite astonishing, and telling to be honest.
Yet again, in the guise of relgion , men seem to take pleasure in killing others including chidren. Causing generations of hate and agony, all the time kicking the can down the road, to eventually do it all.again one day.
Reading between the lines, certain peop!e almost sound like the atrocities carried out by both sides are justifiable. When really what we are seeing is both sides being infected by evil, and then it appears to some, it's a pick a side time .I
Does one side cheer when the other takes a direct hit?

I don’t know if you include me in this bracket. I hope not because I agree with you - to a point. Where I disagree is I think only one side is being picked as a good cop, and it’s not Israel.

We are seeing our own version of a phenomenon that has hundreds, perhaps thousands, of Edinburgh’s middle classes on the streets every weekend, and hundreds of thousands across the UK - though the crowd looks quite different in some places.

This simple minded ideological fervour is what I’m trying to argue against. This thread has pearlers; you mention religion - which I would contend is a comfort blanket argument of its own. More seriously it reflects conspiracy narratives that have Israelis - not least atheists - allegedly working to fulfil doomsday prophecies or to enact a plan based on Divine command. We have atheist lefties bringing in David and Goliath and falsely arguing the Palestinians are the biblical philistines. We have the boards qanon fan doing similar. They aren’t and the fact that more than one person has gone down this route makes me wonder where they’re getting it from. I don’t think they got it at some long past Sunday school, they’re coming from purportedly very different worldviews, and it seems unlikely to arise from a political or humanitarian assessment of the situation.

A significant chunk of the population are attaching themselves to this, as many do any passing cause and others where this is a singular obsession; moreover it looks to me like they are then swallowing stuff originating in some dark corners. It should be challenged imo because it doesn’t lead to a good place, and what we are seeing on our streets isn’t going to end there. If we don’t challenge this now, we’re going to be facing it here, in far more difficult circumstances.

I saw a video the other day of a Jewish man in Edinburgh being urged to put away a Star of David pendant as he watched the parade, the police telling him they couldn’t protect him if this inflamed marchers (there were only three cops). They further warned him not to have it on display as he traversed Edinburgh later in the day as there would be lots of people from the March on the streets. Years ago the police had to warn Edinburgh’s Jews to lie low when antifa were in town, so it’s not new to this current drama.

Meanwhile we have mobs outside MPs homes, and other MPs leaving office after sustained intimidation. We have an explosion of anti semitic crimes and we have far left candidates - cheered on by far right leaders - in with a decent chance of election to parliament by riding this wave; and because a mainstream party can’t seem to field a candidate whose not also doing so. We have police across the country tearing down photos of captured Israeli kids to avoid inflaming the mob and telling Jews they can’t protect them. This is Britain in 2024.

What is this going to look like in 20 years when Britain’s demographics are very different? Who can say for sure, but I would be looking on with foreboding if I was Jewish. So yes, what you say is happening, but it’s hardly ‘the same on both sides’, and that reflects a hysteria in the wider world.

 

[paigntonhibby]

I suspect amongst other reasons, this kinda thing is why the liberal west is less keen than the hard left to rally to the Houthi cause

Houthis in Yemen will publicly stone & crucify 9 gay men in “gruesome public spectacles”

The country will imprison or publicly flog 60 other suspected homosexuals.

www.lgbtqnation.com

Won't be too many years till its happening in british streets i shouldn't wonder

 

[aggie]

right wing reactionary apologists

With the greatest (and genuine) respect, I'm afraid it's not right-wing reactionary apology to find it hard to take these publications seriously.

Not all the questions are wrong then, but the answers always were, and more than that belong to a world that is now gone forever.

Totally. It's tantamount to a fetish for the 20s and 30s. Grimy salt-of-the-earth folks rising up from the factories in flat caps with fists raised. Sexy posters featuring muscly forearms, and rousing slogans.

Even a cursory scan of the "theory" section reveals articles like this: Will the real Lenin please stand up? – A reply to the Morning Star | The Communist

I mean, it's almost a parody of the narcissism of small differences -- it's literally Monty Python and the Judean People's Front. They seriously think that what they are peddling is The One True Answer, and actually castigate and denigrate the Labour left and trade unions as "reformists". It's stunning in its denial of reality, and complete refusal of pragmatic praxis (to borrow the term from their parish).

To be clear -- I've been a student of the 20s and 30s for some years now, and I genuinely believe that around that time, Britain was as close as its been to a revolutionary moment since 1688. I think communism had a chance in that industrial past. But the proletariat is not a bloc in the same sense as it was back then.

To be even more clear -- I agree that capitalism is turning the world into a dystopia, notwithstanding the many benefits it has afforded to humanity over the centuries since the "Dutch experiment." But if you're serious about playing an active role in its demise today, then you really have to reckon with and engage with the world not as it was, but as it is -- online, globalised, atomised beyond the imagination of the communists of the early 20th Century.

 

[egb_hibs]

Won't be too many years till its happening in british streets i shouldn't wonder

I do think we are in grave danger of balkanisation and I can’t see how there will not be a huge reversal of today’s liberal ideals. I don’t think history or the world today provides a scintilla of evidence it can be otherwise. Hopefully it won’t get quite this far though.

 

[egb_hibs]

With the greatest (and genuine) respect, I'm afraid it's not right-wing reactionary apology to find it hard to take these publications seriously.

Totally. It's tantamount to a fetish for the 20s and 30s. Grimy salt-of-the-earth folks rising up from the factories in flat caps with fists raised. Sexy posters featuring muscly forearms, and rousing slogans.

Even a cursory scan of the "theory" section reveals articles like this: Will the real Lenin please stand up? – A reply to the Morning Star | The Communist

I mean, it's almost a parody of the narcissism of small differences -- it's literally Monty Python and the Judean People's Front. They seriously think that what they are peddling is The One True Answer, and actually castigate and denigrate the Labour left and trade unions as "reformists". It's stunning in its denial of reality, and complete refusal of pragmatic praxis (to borrow the term from their parish).

To be clear -- I've been a student of the 20s and 30s for some years now, and I genuinely believe that around that time, Britain was as close as its been to a revolutionary moment since 1688. I think communism had a chance in that industrial past. But the proletariat is not a bloc in the same sense as it was back then.

To be even more clear -- I agree that capitalism is turning the world into a dystopia, notwithstanding the many benefits it has afforded to humanity over the centuries since the "Dutch experiment." But if you're serious about playing an active role in its demise today, then you really have to reckon with and engage with the world not as it was, but as it is -- online, globalised, atomised beyond the imagination of the communists of the early 20th Century.

No one works harder to ensure that the proletariat is not a bloc, than do the left of today.

Tbh @aggie I think we are well past the latter even having an interest in all this prolier than thou stuff. I think Finkelstein, in the article G railed at, is also not right on today’s movement against the Jews, though he may well be on the origin of tropes. It may well be the case that some old boys still believe dusky saracens far away will usher in a proletarian revolution, but I don’t think many under 50s think this way.

That was a passing form, the enduring nature is to remake mankind and reality in conformance with the neuroses of the protagonists, and to find this process self sanctifying. In plain English it’s one big ego wank from the discontented second sons of the ruling class - it was ever thus, with grievances picked up as vehicles along the way, and discarded once they are no longer useful.

Edit- at least G’s generation had a coherent vision, though it’s in tatters now as they try to reconcile it with the incompatible priorities of today’s left. I’m not sure the latter have any coherent vision at all, it’s more about the feels, and inchoate resentment that the world wasn’t built bespoke for them, as child centred learning perhaps led them to believe.

 

[GORDONSMITH7]

Totally. It's tantamount to a fetish for the 20s and 30s. Grimy salt-of-the-earth folks rising up from the factories in flat caps with fists raised. Sexy posters featuring muscly forearms, and rousing slogans.

This is reactionary nonsense and might raise at titter from Telegraph and Mail readers. The Hovis advert playing in the background!

Even a cursory scan of the "theory" section reveals articles like this: Will the real Lenin please stand up? – A reply to the Morning Star | The Communist

I mean, it's almost a parody of the narcissism of small differences -- it's literally Monty Python and the Judean People's Front. They seriously think that what they are peddling is The One True Answer, and actually castigate and denigrate the Labour left and trade unions as "reformists". It's stunning in its denial of reality, and complete refusal of pragmatic praxis (to borrow the term from their parish).

The Monty Python Judean People's Front think has been done to death by M over the years, think of something new @aggie amigo.
No offence but a parody of small differences you say. The small differences are so trifling that the incorrect policies of the Stalinist Communist Party of Russia and its sister parties worldwide lead directly to defeat after defeat of the working class, organised, determined and self sacrificing but were ultimately betrayed by their leadership of which the Stalinists played the most counter Revolutionary role.
The Communists Party leaders swung from one false position to the next at the dictates of the Stalinist beaurocracy in Russia. It can be argued convincingly that gross political mistakes by the workers leadership, not only derailed the revolutionary movements in Germany, Italy and Spain but the false theory of 'Socialism in One Country' and enabled the rise and establishment of Fascism in each of them.
Reformism whether left or right reformist Trade Union leaders or politicians is not a slur just thrown about for point scoring. At the outbreak of the Great Slaughter of 1914-18 these ladies and gentlemen with notable exeptions of Lenin, Trotsky, Liebknecht, Luxemburg, Mclean in Scotland and Connolly in Ireland, buried class divisions under a mountain of jingoistic propaganda and national flag waving, and ‘national unity’ against a ‘common enemy’. There was not twopence worth of progressive content in such outrageous class collaboration.
Worse crimes of the Stalinists are well documented regarding the Nazis and their rise to power.
The Stalinists pursued the opposite course of unity of the Communist And Socialist parties, who both had militias by the way, in the 30s. After painting the Social Democrats as the “main enemy,” the Communist Party formed a de facto bloc with the Nazis. In 1931, the Communists supported a Nazi-initiated referendum against the Social Democratic government in the state of Prussia, rightly scandalizing the Social Democratic workers. Using slogans such as “drive the social fascists from their jobs in the factories and the trade unions!” and “chase them away from the factories, labour exchanges and professional schools,” Communist militants actively collaborated with Nazi hooligans to physically attack and break up Social Democratic party and union meetings.

Left Reformist Popular Unity between the mass workers parties the Socialist, Communists and bourgeois parties, in Chile, failing to carry through the Revolution to its conclusion and the suffering of millions of Chileans with mass execution of militants, hard lesson learned are necessary to study in my opinion. Not least that Imperialism, in this case US Imperialism will not hesitate to decisively intervene when 'Socialism' is in its back yard and facilitate brutal military Bonepartist regimes.

My goodness this thread has strayed somewhat from the title Israel however the actions of Stalinists in 1943 seperating into an Arab Communist Party and a Jewish Communist Party was the precursor to Stalins rush to recognise Israel on 15 May 1948 which was a hammerblow to the Arab workers’ movement, throwing back the struggle for socialism for decades.

History of the RCP: The partition of Palestine and the communist perspective | The Communist

This May, we are launching the Revolutionary Communist Party. To prepare for this, we are looking back on the history of our organisation – beginning with the firm position taken by the Trotskyists in the ‘40s against the partition of Palestine.

communist.red

BIG G

 

[egb_hibs]

@GORDONSMITH7 what should Lenon, Stalin, Trotsky or any hypothetical Soviet leader have done when it became clear revolutions were not going to happen all over?

If not socialism in one country then what was the alternative? I'm genuinely intrigued by where you're going there because it seems to that if you only have socialism in one country (or one small empire anyway), well then thats the position you are in - you either Work with that or abandon it?

Hats off by the way for the clarity of thought; fascism basically is indeed a form of socialism in one country and would not have happened without communism (probably - obviously we don't have time machines or a crystal ball and can never be certain)

 

[egb_hibs]

That article ignores reality from its introductory paragraph. It's also culturally imperialist as things can get. I mean this was 30 years into communism failing where it was tried, with the corpses still warm, and these people were expecting Jews (who'd just escaped a form of European socialism) and arabs to divest themselves of their histories, cultures and individuality, and form a communist idyll?

I mean, come on.

And how come the British et al are imperialists but no mention that 'historic Palestine' is entirely a product of Imperialism and had a history only as a region of empires until you go back to original Jewish times.

If they didn’t want any partitions anywhere, then presumably they wanted ottoman imperialism to maintain?

 

[gun ainm]

Who are the western imperialists ? Show me their empires. Where are they, seriously?

are you looking for a map with half the world painted red (white and blue?) - imperialism is not the same as colonialism, you know this right?

 

[gun ainm]

And how come the British et al are imperialists but no mention that 'historic Palestine' is entirely a product of Imperialism and had a history only as a region of empires until you go back to original Jewish times.

If they didn’t want any partitions anywhere, then presumably they wanted ottoman imperialism to maintain?

i'm not entirely sure what you mean here but it looks as though you're arguing that Palestine is an imperial legacy construct so therefore to identify as Palestinian is 'imperial'? is that right? if so thats bonkers (with the greatest respect etc ;P)

 

[Sancho Panza]

I don’t know if you include me in this bracket. I hope not because I agree with you - to a point. Where I disagree is I think only one side is being picked as a good cop, and it’s not Israel.

We are seeing our own version of a phenomenon that has hundreds, perhaps thousands, of Edinburgh’s middle classes on the streets every weekend, and hundreds of thousands across the UK - though the crowd looks quite different in some places.

This simple minded ideological fervour is what I’m trying to argue against. This thread has pearlers; you mention religion - which I would contend is a comfort blanket argument of its own. More seriously it reflects conspiracy narratives that have Israelis - not least atheists - allegedly working to fulfil doomsday prophecies or to enact a plan based on Divine command. We have atheist lefties bringing in David and Goliath and falsely arguing the Palestinians are the biblical philistines. We have the boards qanon fan doing similar. They aren’t and the fact that more than one person has gone down this route makes me wonder where they’re getting it from. I don’t think they got it at some long past Sunday school, they’re coming from purportedly very different worldviews, and it seems unlikely to arise from a political or humanitarian assessment of the situation.

A significant chunk of the population are attaching themselves to this, as many do any passing cause and others where this is a singular obsession; moreover it looks to me like they are then swallowing stuff originating in some dark corners. It should be challenged imo because it doesn’t lead to a good place, and what we are seeing on our streets isn’t going to end there. If we don’t challenge this now, we’re going to be facing it here, in far more difficult circumstances.

I saw a video the other day of a Jewish man in Edinburgh being urged to put away a Star of David pendant as he watched the parade, the police telling him they couldn’t protect him if this inflamed marchers (there were only three cops). They further warned him not to have it on display as he traversed Edinburgh later in the day as there would be lots of people from the March on the streets. Years ago the police had to warn Edinburgh’s Jews to lie low when antifa were in town, so it’s not new to this current drama.

Meanwhile we have mobs outside MPs homes, and other MPs leaving office after sustained intimidation. We have an explosion of anti semitic crimes and we have far left candidates - cheered on by far right leaders - in with a decent chance of election to parliament by riding this wave; and because a mainstream party can’t seem to field a candidate whose not also doing so. We have police across the country tearing down photos of captured Israeli kids to avoid inflaming the mob and telling Jews they can’t protect them. This is Britain in 2024.

What is this going to look like in 20 years when Britain’s demographics are very different? Who can say for sure, but I would be looking on with foreboding if I was Jewish. So yes, what you say is happening, but it’s hardly ‘the same on both sides’, and that reflects a hysteria in the wider world.

I saw that clip from Edinburgh. Absolutely disgusting. Have you seen this? Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the situation, I'm sure most Bouncers would have a problem with the EDL marching past mosques or the Orange Order marching through Catholic neighbourhoods, so how is this in any way acceptable week after week? It's the Jewish Sabbath FFS!

 

[egb_hibs]

are you looking for a map with half the world painted red (white and blue?) - imperialism is not the same as colonialism, you know this right?

I’m looking to understand where the empires are, or colonies if that makes you happier. Anything that remotely explains this chat about imperialists.

 

[egb_hibs]

i'm not entirely sure what you mean here but it looks as though you're arguing that Palestine is an imperial legacy construct so therefore to identify as Palestinian is 'imperial'? is that right? if so thats bonkers (with the greatest respect etc ;P)

Not me that’s bonkers. The article talks about imperialists partitioning the ‘historic Palestine’. What that actually means is partitioning the lands of the Ottoman empire as part of it’s deconstruction.

So what’s it to be? You either have imperialism or by definition you partition the former empire into nation states. Which is to be?

I can’t believe you’re trying to defend this crazed ramble.

Oh and everywhere else, such exercises are lambasted for not recognising distinct ethnic groups - see Africa for example - here they are lambasted for recognising them. It’s just nihilism.

 

[egb_hibs]

I saw that clip from Edinburgh. Absolutely disgusting. Have you seen this? Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the situation, I'm sure most Bouncers would have a problem with the EDL marching past mosques or the Orange Order marching through Catholic neighbourhoods, so how is this in any way acceptable week after week? It's the Jewish Sabbath FFS!

As I have noted before to much consternation but no correction, afaik anti fascist organisations have never lifted a finger to defend Catholics from orange marches. Still at least they weren’t actively participating in them. Who’d bet against that here?

Anti fascists aren’t anti racists for the sake of anti racism; it’s a flag of convenience in a battle between rival radical groups. If you don’t fit into that framework you’re not getting any help against racism, and may even be on the end of it.

 

[gun ainm]

I’m looking to understand where the empires are, or colonies if that makes you happier. Anything that remotely explains this chat about imperialists.

see american imperialism for an explanation of how term is used

American imperialism is the expansion of American political, economic, cultural, media, and military influence beyond the boundaries of the United States. Depending on the commentator, it may include imperialism through outright military conquest; gunboat diplomacy; unequal treaties; subsidization of preferred factions; regime change; or economic penetration through private companies, potentially followed by diplomatic or forceful intervention when those interests are threatened.

 

[egb_hibs]

see american imperialism for an explanation of how term is used

American imperialism is the expansion of American political, economic, cultural, media, and military influence beyond the boundaries of the United States. Depending on the commentator, it may include imperialism through outright military conquest; gunboat diplomacy; unequal treaties; subsidization of preferred factions; regime change; or economic penetration through private companies, potentially followed by diplomatic or forceful intervention when those interests are threatened.

So not imperialism, then?

One wonders if people who entertain this usage are Trump fans. They should be by the sounds of it.

 

[gun ainm]

Not me that’s bonkers. The article talks about imperialists partitioning the ‘historic Palestine’. What that actually means is partitioning the lands of the Ottoman empire as part of it’s deconstruction.

So what’s it to be? You either have imperialism or by definition you partition the former empire into nation states. Which is to be?

I can’t believe you’re trying to defend this crazed ramble.

Oh and everywhere else, such exercises are lambasted for not recognising distinct ethnic groups - see Africa for example - here they are lambasted for recognising them. It’s just nihilism.

tbf I did seek clarification (not sure what you mean) - I haven't read the article.

Sykes-Picot was not partitioning of Ottoman Empire into nation states it was dividing spoils between French and Brits, Palestine became 'British' a few years later (it was briefly shared between victorious imperial powers) despite it being simultaneously promised to arabs and zionists during the war. iirc Palestine was originally conceived as an entity by Heroditus as the home of the philistines? anyway its had a broad geographic identity for a long time but not a nation state.

 

[gun ainm]

So not imperialism, then?

One wonders if people who entertain this usage are Trump fans. They should be by the sounds of it.

whats your definition of imperialism out of interest? I dont think this use is controversial at all when you consider the definition.

Imperialism is the practice, theory or attitude of maintaining or extending power over foreign nations, particularly through expansionism, employing both hard power (military and economic power) and soft power (diplomatic power and cultural imperialism).

any reasonable reading of US history would be hard pressed not to recognise imperial policy

 

[egb_hibs]

tbf I did seek clarification (not sure what you mean) - I haven't read the article.

How can you criticise my comment without knowing what it refers to ?!

Sykes-Picot was not partitioning of Ottoman Empire into nation states it was dividing spoils between French and Brits, Palestine became 'British' a few years later (it was briefly shared between victorious imperial powers) despite it being simultaneously promised to arabs and zionists during the war.

The ‘partition of Palestine’ took place after that though, when the British / League of Nations attempted to set up nation states for the two ethnic groups. Split hairs if you like, but prior to that it hadn’t not been part of an empire since ancient times. Reframe my point as deconstructing the British empire in that part of the world if you really must; it doesn’t change the point. Creating nation states was the alternative to imperialist dominion, so which is it to be?

iirc Palestine was originally conceived as an entity by Heroditus as the home of the philistines? anyway its had a broad geographic identity for a long time but not a nation state.

The Greeks referred to an area as Palestine which they named after the Philistines. It was then adopted politically by Roman imperialists when they crushed the Kingdom of Judea, according to some, in order to humiliate the subjugated.

The Palestinians of today took their name from the area. They are not the Philistines (as a number of our fellows appear to believe). They are descended from subsequent waves of imperial colonialists from elsewhere. The same is true of the Philistines themselves but they vanished eons ago.

I don’t know what a geographic identity is, but the name given to the territory was coined for a people that haven’t existed since 500 years before the time of Christ. The only ethnic group that was in the region when these terms were coined, and which is still in the region, and who have always been in the region throughout even if at times in numbers much diminished by waves of imperial conquest, is the Jews.

 

[egb_hibs]

Those who attack Jews in the UK are not striking a blow for Palestine: they are behaving as antisemites always have | Jonathan Freedland

Tropes in a Labour meeting, antisemitism incidents up 589% – try to imagine what it is like to be Jewish in Britain right now, says Guardian columnist Jonathan Freedland

www.theguardian.com

“An arresting fact about the latest numbers is that the biggest surge in anti-Jewish activity came immediately after the 7 October attacks, when Israelis were still reeling – still counting their dead and missing – and had scarcely responded at all. As the CST put it: “In the week following 7 October, CST recorded 416 anti-Jewish hate incidents, higher than any subsequent week. It indicates that it was celebration of Hamas’ attack, rather than anger towards Israel’s military response in Gaza, that prompted the unprecedented levels of antisemitism across the country.”

 

[1875]

Those who attack Jews in the UK are not striking a blow for Palestine: they are behaving as antisemites always have | Jonathan Freedland

Tropes in a Labour meeting, antisemitism incidents up 589% – try to imagine what it is like to be Jewish in Britain right now, says Guardian columnist Jonathan Freedland

www.theguardian.com

“An arresting fact about the latest numbers is that the biggest surge in anti-Jewish activity came immediately after the 7 October attacks, when Israelis were still reeling – still counting their dead and missing – and had scarcely responded at all. As the CST put it: “In the week following 7 October, CST recorded 416 anti-Jewish hate incidents, higher than any subsequent week. It indicates that it was celebration of Hamas’ attack, rather than anger towards Israel’s military response in Gaza, that prompted the unprecedented levels of antisemitism across the country.”

What indicates that?

 

[egb_hibs]

What indicates that?

If the highest incidence of anti semitic crimes was spurred by the Hamas attack rather than any Israeli response (after which incidents of course carried on) then it suggests that the response is not the trigger, and certainly not a convenient explanation.

You can quibble whether it’s a ‘celebration’ or not, but 7/10 attacks seem pretty clearly to have been an ‘inspiration’ at least.

 

[1875]

If the highest incidence of anti semitic crimes was spurred by the Hamas attack rather than any Israeli response (after which incidents of course carried on) then it suggests that the response is not the trigger, and certainly not a convenient explanation.

You can quibble whether it’s a ‘celebration’ or not, but 7/10 attacks seem pretty clearly to have been an ‘inspiration’ at least.

So the statement is a load of bollocks lets be honest.