Ukraine.

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joethehibby said:
Yemen , syria , afghanistan to name three countries where misery is widespread ,
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Your point caller.

Misery is human life. We have been incredibly lucky in the West since WW2. Incredibly lucky. The Yemen is what is normal for this species. Violence, hate and death. We are trying to be something better. Europe has been trying. Is that enough? Or is the lack of utter perfection enough to condemn us all to sink below the waves?

The whole relationship between the Western amrs dealers, governments and rathe nasty regimes like Saudi Arabia is worth a rather long thread in and of itself.

But we are talking about today Putin. This is the current issue, where an albeit imperfect democracy that we are supposed to be wanting for the world is being craushed by that which we are all supposed to be against and indeed declaim our own state to be?
 
Davy said:
That was enough to chase Russia out of Afghanastan before we suffered similar
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No matter how psychotic the leadership, the normal Private soldiers and civilians will have enough. Regular armies cannot cope with widespread guerilla warfare. Even Napoleon lost to it. Although why competant generals like Soult ketp marching at the British and Portuguese lines in column again and again and again........

If this is not a quick, sharp war with minimal casualties could be problems. The USSR couldn't cope with the fallout from their Afgahn war.
 
jetsam1 said:
No matter how psychotic the leadership, the normal Private soldiers and civilians will have enough. Regular armies cannot cope with widespread guerilla warfare. Even Napoleon lost to it. Although why competant generals like Soult ketp marching at the British and Portuguese lines in column again and again and again......

If this is not a quick, sharp war with minimal casualties could be problems. The USSR couldn't cope with the fallout from their Afgahn war.
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Yes and they were the USSR back then and drew troops from everywhere, including Ukraine..now it is only Russian body bags heading home
 
jetsam1 said:
But is that the fault of the people currently fleeing and who need help?
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No it certainly is not in any possible way. Nor was it the fault of Syrian, Afghan, Libyan nor African refugees fleeing war.
One thing that is certain is that and I and you have more in common with the aspirations of Ukrainian, Russian, Polish, British, US and Hungarian workers and their families than any Ukrainian, Russian Oligarchs, who have financially raped their countries, Putin, Orban, Johnson or Biden for that matter.
One thing that's for sure it that it will be these same workers and their families who will pay one way or another for this attack on the Ukraine as night follows day, as they will for the financial slump that was on it's way before this adventure.

BIG G
 
GORDONSMITH7 said:
My point is all colours and creeds. being terrified, does not take cognicence of skin colour nor religion or where you have fled for your life. Unfortunately within the past 6 years some governments have.

BIG G
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Sorry mate, I have no idea what you are saying?
 
GORDONSMITH7 said:
No it certainly is not in any possible way. Nor was it the fault of Syrian, Afgahn, Libyan nor African refugees fleeing war.
One thing that is certain is that and I and you have more in common with the aspirations of Ukrainian, Russian, Polish, British, US and Hungarian workers and their families than any Ukrainian, Russian Oligarchs, who have financially raped their countries, Putin, Orban, Johnson or Biden for that matter.
One thing that's for sure it that it will be these same workers and their families who will pay one way or another for this attack on the Ukraine as night follows day, as they will for the financial slump that was on it's way before this adventure.

BIG G
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But how to give everyone the opportunity to be all they can be? The waste in this world of human potential is....... well, I haven't a thesaurus to hand to find a word bigger than huge.

It is always the little people, us, that pay. But sometimes you have to stand up, how would you categorise those who fought against the Soviets in 1956?

Yes people everywhere suffer. Can we do all that much about it? Not really. I am just someone doing a job and working but I still think some things have to be defended. Say if the great Empires and Monarchies had survived WW1 would we have this freedom to talk now? Doubtfull. I feel you in a way write off everyone angry at Putin as you feel the West is worse? As if because "we" did war we cannot oppose this war and must allow Putin to do whatever he would wish? I would like peace and everyone to live together but as that blatently appears impossible we have to do what we can with what we have.

The Workers Revolution was tried, it failed as it lead only to another system of stratification and then to tyranny. We are not there yet and have a chance of not succombing to the worst of us even though inequality and greed are killing us. 'Twas ever thus though, Monarchy, Despotism, Republic, Democracy, Communism, Anarchism.........
 
GORDONSMITH7 said:
What Im saying that people have convenient short memories of the brutal racist controls on refugees recently by the Polish and Hungarian regimes.
Simple.

BIG G
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Which is irrelevant with regard to the current situation. The unionist government on this island have made it impossible for Ukrainian people to come here to escape the pig Putin. Equally Brutal.
 
1875 said:
Which is irrelevant with regard to the current situation. The unionist government on this island have made it impossible for Ukrainian people to come here to escape the pig Putin. Equally Brutal.
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I know their position and agree that it is reactionary. Why would I not?

BIG G
 
GORDONSMITH7 said:
What Im saying that people have convenient short memories of the brutal racist controls on refugees recently by the Polish and Hungarian regimes.
Simple.

BIG G
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Ok then, what do you suggest in the here and now?

What do you suggest we do about Hungary and Poland? It takes time to come out from under dictatorship and rebuild. Maybe you expect to much from Humans. Remeber these were poor countries, and many still are. If you see some of the poverty still around.....

The UK has had a continuation of relatively stable governance without large traumas like WW2, total warfare going accross the land and cities and being systimatically looted and occupied by a foriegn army for 40 years. Also no Marshall Aid. Shall we forget Stalin?

Just ease up a touch on Eastern Europe, there is a long way to go. And I think you will find the coming generations are very different from your characterisation of all being racist evil. They are just younger and not worked through to positions of power yet. How long has it taken the UK to get to where it is socially? And still there is the like of UKIP and The ERG? And that is with a tradition of multiple party parliamentary systems with the ability to vote, and no Pravda, and more than one news source. And no secret police.

Yes the refugee response was not good and wrong, but really no different from the Tory response. Just you have a moat. Europe has long land borders and therefore more. And the UK and the USA caused a lot of the shit the refugees are running from.
 
jetsam1 said:
But how to give everyone the opportunity to be all they can be? The waste in this world of human potential is..... well, I haven't a thesaurus to hand to find a word bigger than huge.

It is always the little people, us, that pay. But sometimes you have to stand up, how would you categorise those who fought against the Soviets in 1956?
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I catogorise it as the Hungarian Revolution against the Stalinist regime. The British Trotskyists at the time gave full support to the Hungarian workers as we do now.
This is for anyone who wants to listen about these events.
I guess the vast majority on here know next to nothing about these momentous events. Sadly possibly dont care 65 years ago. So what! The so what is that the Hungarian workers were an inspiration to many activists throughout the World at the time.
Less we forget thousands more Trotskyists were murdered, starved and worked to death in Stalins Gulags for opposing the Stalinist beaurocracy than will unfortunately die in this present conflict.
Just hang on for someone to say "What a load of bollocks" Never mind.

www.socialist.net

The Hungarian Revolution: 60 years on | The Communist

60 years ago, on 23rd October 1956, the workers and youth of Hungary rose up in a political revolution against the Stalinist bureaucracy. Contrary to Stalinist slanders at the time, this was never a movement for the restoration of capitalism, but an attempt by the Hungarian working class to...
www.socialist.net www.socialist.net

You seem to be an opened minded guy jetsam 1. Tell me what you think amigo.

BIG G
 
1875 said:
Well you could add the fact the fuckers are blocking innocent Ukranians access to this putrid union to your diatribe about Hungary and Poland’s governments, where “refugees are indeed welcome”.
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Diatribe! "a forceful and bitter verbal attack against someone or something."
If you mean against racist right wing anti refugee actions in 2015. You are spot on. I stand guilty.
Just watching the pathetic UN statement live. They and the EU gave these racist horrors a wrap on the nuckles back then. As they both did when Russia annexed Crimea.
Does it not cross people's minds why they all did so little when this happened? Nor willing to cut off Russia's oil and gas to Europe now?
Their own Capitalist interests prevailed and still are.

BIG G
 
GORDONSMITH7 said:
Diatribe! "a forceful and bitter verbal attack against someone or something."
If you mean against racist right wing anti refugee actions in 2015. You are spot on. I stand guilty.
Just watching the pathetic UN statement live. They and the EU gave these racist horrors a wrap on the nuckles back then. As they both did when Russia annexed Crimea.
Does it not cross people's minds why they all did so little when this happened? Nor willing to cut off Russia's oil and gas to Europe now?
Their own Capitalist interests prevailed and still are.

BIG G
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7 years ago. Care to offer your thoughts on why the Union won’t offer visas to Ukrainians now?
 
1875 said:
7 years ago. Care to offer your thoughts on why the Union won’t offer visas to Ukrainians now?
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As long as you use the word Union/Unionist as a cheap , spit in the face word mate, to Interationalist Socialists like myself who clearly are not Unionists your leverage on debate is minimised amigo.
By the way several of the folk on here that regard themselves as Marxist/ Leftist voted for or against Brexit with reasons they came to as thinking individuals and also the same against or for Scottish Independence with reasons that again they came to. None of them I know are Unionists nor every will be. I'll take that particular spit slur and wipe it off my puss in my stride and try to give what I see as a reasoned case for events and situations as I see them happening.

This right wing UK government is brutally going to hammer the working class and their families in the not too distant future, they are introducing anti worker legislation now, in the hear and now.
You say left and right politics is outmoded
Sorry to disappoint you.

BIG G
 
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GORDONSMITH7 said:
As long as you use the word Union/Unionist as a cheap , spit in the face word mate, to Interationalist Socialists like myself who clearly are not Unionists your leverage on debate is minimised amigo.
By the way several of the folk on here that regard themselves as Marxist/ Leftist voted for or against Brexit with reasons they came to as thinking individuals and also the same against or for Scottish Independence with reasons that again they came to. None of them I know are Unionists nor every will be. I'll take that particular spit slur and wipe it off my puss in my stride and try to give what I see as a reasoned case for events and situations as I see them happening.

This right wing UK government is brutally going to hammer the working class and their families in the not too distant future, they are introducing antic worker legislation now, in the hear and now.
You say left and right politics is outmoded
Sorry to disappoint you.

BIG G
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So you're last paragraph is bang on the money , but if you believe this why are you against Scotland leaving the union ? Scotland has always been a socialist country england not so much. No body fluids have been flung , whilst writing this
 
GORDONSMITH7 said:
As long as you use the word Union/Unionist as a cheap , spit in the face word mate, to Interationalist Socialists like myself who clearly are not Unionists your leverage on debate is minimised amigo.
By the way several of the folk on here that regard themselves as Marxist/ Leftist voted for or against Brexit with reasons they came to as thinking individuals and also the same against or for Scottish Independence with reasons that again they came to. None of them I know are Unionists nor every will be. I'll take that particular spit slur and wipe it off my puss in my stride and try to give what I see as a reasoned case for events and situations as I see them happening.

This right wing UK government is brutally going to hammer the working class and their families in the not too distant future, they are introducing anti worker legislation now, in the hear and now.
You say left and right politics is outmoded
Sorry to disappoint you.

BIG G
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As much as a Labour Party member of over 50 years I have to say is not just the Blarite Starmer, Mandilson et al that I oppose what is happening but also the so called Left wing of the Party.

It reminds me off the collapse of the British Labour Movement, coalescing in the First World war.

Only folk like our own Scottish Marxist John MacLean, imprisoned in the brutal conditions for 5 years in Calton Jail, got it then.

Starmer and unfortunately the so called Left, dinnae and never will
shankssaysno said:
So you're last paragraph is bang on the money , but if you believe this why are you against Scotland leaving the union ? Scotland has always been a socialist country england not so much. No body fluids have been flung , whilst writing this
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That's another debate which I will put on here in comradely manner amigo. I am 100%+ in favour of a new Referendum .

www.socialist.net

Starmer, the Left, and the War: Time to make a stand | The Communist

‘Sir’ Keir Starmer has cynically used Russia’s attack on Ukraine as an excuse to attack the anti-imperialist left, and to prove his loyalty to the establishment. The labour movement must fight the enemy at home, not the ‘enemy within’.
www.socialist.net www.socialist.net

Cannae be said I follow the Party line.

BIG G
 
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GORDONSMITH7 said:
As long as you use the word Union/Unionist as a cheap , spit in the face word mate, to Interationalist Socialists like myself who clearly are not Unionists your leverage on debate is minimised amigo.
By the way several of the folk on here that regard themselves as Marxist/ Leftist voted for or against Brexit with reasons they came to as thinking individuals and also the same against or for Scottish Independence with reasons that again they came to. None of them I know are Unionists nor every will be. I'll take that particular spit slur and wipe it off my puss in my stride and try to give what I see as a reasoned case for events and situations as I see them happening.

This right wing UK government is brutally going to hammer the working class and their families in the not too distant future, they are introducing anti worker legislation now, in the hear and now.
You say left and right politics is outmoded
Sorry to disappoint you.

BIG G
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Decent deflection suggesting a perceived slant on your political leanings although you never answered the question. People are talking about Ukraine, you keep referring to the Labour Party, Marxism and Britain’s working class?
 
1875 said:
Decent deflection suggesting a perceived slant on your political leanings although you never answered the question. People are talking about Ukraine, you keep referring to the Labour Party, Marxism and Britain’s working class?
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Smoke and mirrors son. Won't impress anyone. I don't keep referring at all as you claim.. More Smoke and mirrors. There are serious questions to be asked about why we are here in this situation. from the beginning of this debate about these serious events.
Many on here have put their honest opinions forward.I would like to think that Socialist Appeal articles have been, whether you agree with them or not, been a balanced analysis of what has and is happening , cutting across MSM shite. I would never dis the opinions of folk who have put their opinions forward. What's your problem with that exactly and precisely.

BIG G
 
GORDONSMITH7 said:
I catogorise it as the Hungarian Revolution against the Stalinist regime. The British Trotskyists at the time gave full support to the Hungarian workers as we do now.
This is for anyone who wants to listen about these events.
I guess the vast majority on here know next to nothing about these momentous events. Sadly possibly dont care 65 years ago. So what! The so what is that the Hungarian workers were an inspiration to many activists throughout the World at the time.
Less we forget thousands more Trotskyists were murdered, starved and worked to death in Stalins Gulags for opposing the Stalinist beaurocracy than will unfortunately die in this present conflict.
Just hang on for someone to say "What a load of bollocks" Never mind.

www.socialist.net

The Hungarian Revolution: 60 years on | The Communist

60 years ago, on 23rd October 1956, the workers and youth of Hungary rose up in a political revolution against the Stalinist bureaucracy. Contrary to Stalinist slanders at the time, this was never a movement for the restoration of capitalism, but an attempt by the Hungarian working class to...
www.socialist.net www.socialist.net

You seem to be an opened minded guy jetsam 1. Tell me what you think amigo.

BIG G
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And there was me thinking it was just a fight for freedom by ordinary hungarians
 
GORDONSMITH7 said:
Smoke and mirrors son. Won't impress anyone. I don't keep referring at all as you claim.. More Smoke and mirrors. There are serious questions to be asked about why we are here in this situation. from the beginning of this debate about these serious events.
Many on here have put their honest opinions forward.I would like to think that Socialist Appeal articles have been, whether you agree with them or not, been a balanced analysis of what has and is happening , cutting across MSM shite. I would never dis the opinions of folk who have put their opinions forward. What's your problem with that exactly and precisely.

BIG G
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By the way what the politcians in the UK say are of utterly of non importance in this dire situation.Johnson's measly words or Starmers I can do better than you can , to attract Tory voters, can be contrasted with those of the thef6
S , who correctly hahome the connection between the Tories and the British ruling class when it comes to witk gangster Oligarchs in the UK.
I watched it live and he was a breath of fresh air during that debate in the Gasworks, in my opinion.

BIG G
 
paigntonhibby said:
And there was me thinking it was just a fight for freedom by ordinary hungarians
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Well it was originally started by a small group of University students trying to make a broadcast on the radio to call for freedom and political reform and after they were arressted the demonstrations started. Then the AVH shot them and the insurrection began. Imre Nagy eventually became the figurehead, he was a true believer Communist but the Stalinist excesses of Rakosi forced his hand. I think Nagy thought he could keep the Communist system but reform it to be fairer but events overtook him and the aggressive response led him to go all out for independance. He is still a national hero.

It was at heart Anti-Communist and anti repression. The first battles were against the AVH, secret police and many of them and Communist Party officials were lynched in the street. Nagy called for free elections and withdrew from the Warsaw Pact and the rest is history as they say. There were elements of the Army involved in the revolutionary forces and the normal Police stood aside and opened their armouries for the freedom fighters. All the leaders who were captured were excecuted.

The flag with a hole in it is a very important symbol in Hungary and the 1956 Revolution is commemorated every year. Trotsky had nothing to do with it. Indeed the first things to come down were statues of Stalin famously.

Ruszkik Haza is also a politically important phrase from that time.

If you are ever in Budapest I highly recommend a trip to the old Secret Police HQ on Andrassy ut called the Terror House. First thing you see is a Russian Tank. It starts at the top floor with the Nazis who occupied Hungary, then the Arrow Cross (Szalasi's Hungarian Nazi Party) and then down you go through the history of the Communist take over and all the lovely things they got up to. The final section is the basement with the excecution chamber and photographs and names of all the officers who worked there as a reminder.

One of the best memorials I have seen is by the Danube just down by the Parliament building where the Arrow Cross gunned down Jewish civilians into the river. It is very simple, a series of empty shoes on the river bank. Simple and yet very powerful.

In terms of the UK working class being pummelled, at least you can actually vote, you do not risk being disappeared or conscripted. Well yet anyway. But your battles are not going to involve blood and people dying on a battlefield made from a residential street.
 
jetsam1 said:
Well it was originally started by a small group of University students trying to make a broadcast on the radio to call for freedom and political reform and after they were arressted the demonstrations started. Then the AVH shot them and the insurrection began. Imre Nagy eventually became the figurehead, he was a true believer Communist but the Stalinist excesses of Rakosi forced his hand. I think Nagy thought he could keep the Communist system but reform it to be fairer but events overtook him and the aggressive response led him to go all out for independance. He is still a national hero.

It was at heart Anti-Communist and anti repression. The first battles were against the AVH, secret police and many of them and Communist Party officials were lynched in the street. Nagy called for free elections and withdrew from the Warsaw Pact and the rest is history as they say. There were elements of the Army involved in the revolutionary forces and the normal Police stood aside and opened their armouries for the freedom fighters. All the leaders who were captured were excecuted.

The flag with a hole in it is a very important symbol in Hungary and the 1956 Revolution is commemorated every year. Trotsky had nothing to do with it. Indeed the first things to come down were statues of Stalin famously.

Ruszkik Haza is also a politically important phrase from that time.

If you are ever in Budapest I highly recommend a trip to the old Secret Police HQ on Andrassy ut called the Terror House. First thing you see is a Russian Tank. It starts at the top floor with the Nazis who occupied Hungary, then the Arrow Cross (Szalasi's Hungarian Nazi Party) and then down you go through the history of the Communist take over and all the lovely things they got up to. The final section is the basement with the excecution chamber and photographs and names of all the officers who worked there as a reminder.

One of the best memorials I have seen is by the Danube just down by the Parliament building where the Arrow Cross gunned down Jewish civilians into the river. It is very simple, a series of empty shoes on the river bank. Simple and yet very powerful.

In terms of the UK working class being pummelled, at least you can actually vote, you do not risk being disappeared or conscripted. Well yet anyway. But your battles are not going to involve blood and people dying on a battlefield made from a residential street.
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You seem to know your stuff , 🤔
 
I can't believe the horrors in Ukraine are being turned into another UK constitution debate. Not everything in the world has to go through that prism. There's so much that will need to be addressed after this resolves. But everything has changed and all of the previous political certainties will need questioned. Right now I'm focused on a heroic struggle in Europe that I thought I'd never see in my lifetime.
 
Medvedev saying the death penalty is coming back (or he says he wants it).

Yes, looks like Putin has failed to take the main objectives and the Ukrainian army is not the push over people were ecpecting a few weeks ago. They will have been preparing for this for weeks and are arming volunteers. I see EU countries are going to be supplying more weaponary and the threat of SWIFT being taken away from Russia is getting more real.

There is a hope that this is the beginning of the end for Putin if Ukraine can hold out long enough to force talks. 60% of the Russian miltary is in the Ukraine from reports, they really don't have much else to send conventionally. You must question how motivated the rank and file actually are.

I winder if he has thought about nukes and Kyiv? Would anyone stand up to him if it gets to that?

Have you seen the video of the Grandpa telling Russian soldiers off?
 
French Navy have siezed a Russian cargo ship in the channel.

The response is coming. UK intelligence update is that Russia has not been able to gain premacy of airspace. They are in trouble then from a gound forces perspective.
 
I've got to say, the Ukrainians are proving to be masters of psychological warfare. The story about the 'Ghost of Kiev' fighter plane; the grandmother giving Russian soldiers sunflower seeds and the latest asking the Red Cross to remove the bodies Russian troops and return them to Russia all contribute to spooking a largely conscripted Russian army.
 
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