Ukraine.

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paigntonhibby said:
Sorry Smurf, cannae agree there I'm afraid.
The only mistake was not letting Ukraine intae NATO earlier.
If the Warsaw pact countries hadn't been allowed in ( they wanted tae join by the way they weren't forced) the chances are this would probably have happened sooner and been a lot more widespread.
The only one who's culpable is Putin.
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Can you not see how wrong allowing NATO expansion is eastwards? Do you really think the USA would permit left wing Government's on their borders let alone nations in some military pact with Russia? The absolute ignorance towards Russian fears of invasion is unreal. And the hypocrisy something else! FFS they lost twenty seven million in a war not that long ago.
 
jetsam1 said:
Well, the former Warsaw Pact countries should have no agency? Given back to the Russians then? After the 20th century a number of countries finally were able to choose their own path and that was to look towards Europe not Russia. And well, we are seeing WHY they chose to apply to NATO and the EU right now.

I live in Hungary, Russian occupation is within living memory. Occupation. It was not nice and pleasant. Russia under Putin would like to do the same just as an Imperial Power rather than a Communist one. No-one wants to be back under Russia, once again we are seeing why. This is not NATO's fault, it is the fault of a very unpleasant ideology of ultra nationaliam being used to prop up the rule of one man and his team of little helpers. It is not Ukraines' fault for existing and the Putin and his nationalists inability to accept that.

Russia could have been different, Putin made sure it went straight back to authoritarianism. Next stop Finland then?
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Finland has never joined NATO. After 1991 the USA revelled in the collapse of the Soviet Union. It loved to ridicule the mess Russia became. It had no interest in a Europe with Russia in it and urged ex Soviet countries to join in NATO expansion.

Putin is indeed a nationalist. And a nasty one at that. However, those presenting this situation as black & white are IMO misguided.
 
hibbybilly said:
Big fuckin hand for Poland. Expecting over 4M refugees and welcoming them with or without ID. 👏👏👏
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Obviously they must be the right kind of refugees. Less than half a dozen years ago the reactionary right wing governments of Poland and Hungary were at loggerheads with the EU when resolutely not accepting refugees.
The Polish response to the crisis at the that time in 2015, banning refugees from crossing its borders, had both been two of the least welcoming in Europe. Poland was reprimanded by the EU for its lack of solidarity with other countries that accepted refugees. The government’s response was that it did indeed welcome refugees as long as they are not Muslims.

Jarosław Kaczyński, Deputy Leader of Poland now, warned that migrants carry “all sorts of parasites and protozoa, which … while not dangerous in the organisms of these people, could be dangerous here.” What a prize cocksocket.

Refugees are refugees are refugees!

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Smurf said:
Finland has never joined NATO. After 1991 the USA revelled in the collapse of the Soviet Union. It loved to ridicule the mess Russia became. It had no interest in a Europe with Russia in it and urged ex Soviet countries to join in NATO expansion.

Putin is indeed a nationalist. And a nasty one at that. However, those presenting this situation as black & white are IMO misguided.
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Right the former occupied territories of the Soviet Empire wanted protection from what the Ex Soviet Empire was always likely to become.

THE FORMER WARSAW PACT DID NOT IN ANY WAY WANT TO BE ANY SATELLITES OF RUSSIA ANY MORE.

Very simple. Especially if we take the idea of self determination of nations as a thing. These stupid little countries as I think you see them (expendables really) were never not part of Europe. Now they are. I blame Russia and its leadership entirely for all of this. Their choice. They chose to go straight back to dictatorship and threaten all their neighbours. Didn't have to. Russia could be one of the great countries of the world if the rich (who were fully behind and really went for the Capitalist thing by the way, it was not all one way at all). So fuck this this thing were half of Europe should be given back to Putin and his ilk. It is not The former Warsaw Pact countries fault that the Russian leaderdship's only response ever is violence.

FInland and Sweden will be rather nervous right now and I understand fully.

So. How would you have handled the fall of Communism and all these countries beoming free? Should the West have cold shouldered them? Allowed nationalism and civil wars to take the region? Or encourage them to become gradually democratic and help them becom free countries? Bear in mind (including Ukraine) the people have been looking for their own countries and to be free from foriegn occupation or being forcibly incorporated in Empires for hundreds of years.

Do you agree with a resurgence of a Russian Empire in the image if Putin? Happy with surrendering Eastern Europe once again? Should Poland for example give themselves up and allow Russian forces back to take over?
 
The countries around Russia are that..countries! They fear being back under the Soviet regime and know they are too small to resist therefore they apply to join Nato. Empires rise all the time and it was o ly a matter of time before Russia had big ambitions again. As Smurf said, Russia were invited to be a greater part of Europe and keep their identity. Dont you find it interesting Putin does not recognise Ukraine as a country...but a state to be under his ownership which is what Belarus has become
Nato might not be perfect but allow countries to rule themselves.

That pipeline would have made Russia even more prosperous but they prefer to play dictator
 
jetsam1 said:
Do you agree with a resurgence of a Russian Empire in the image if Putin? Happy with surrendering Eastern Europe once again? Should Poland for example give themselves up and allow Russian forces back to take over?
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I won't answer for Smurf but your question is palpably worse than ludicrous.

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GORDONSMITH7 said:
Obviously they must be the right kind of refugees. Less than half a dozen years ago the reactionary right wing governments of Poland and Hungary were at loggerheads with the EU when resolutely not accepting refugees.
The Polish response to the crisis at the that time in 2015, banning refugees from crossing its borders, had both been two of the least welcoming in Europe. Poland was reprimanded by the EU for its lack of solidarity with other countries that accepted refugees. The government’s response was that it did indeed welcome refugees as long as they are not Muslims.

Jarosław Kaczyński, Deputy Leader of Poland now, warned that migrants carry “all sorts of parasites and protozoa, which … while not dangerous in the organisms of these people, could be dangerous here.” What a prize cocksocket.

Refugees are refugees are refugees!

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They’re Ukrainian refugees, might be a few non Ukrainians in amongst them, but Poland are taking them… and their pets if they have them. Good on Poland I say 😊
 
GORDONSMITH7 said:
I won't answer for Smurf but your question is palpably worse than ludicrous.

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This is all happening one border away from me. It is not against the realms of possibility that my adopted country is going to be in trouble. A lot of trouble.

That is what it comes to if you listen to the particular ideology at the top of Russian Leadership. Why not smash Ukraine? Then, when we all watch smash Finland (revenge indeed) and the Baltic states.

Why not let us little pointless countries die again?

I am tired, and very angry. We can do nothing but apologising for Putins aggression I will not accept. If Putin was worried about being "surrounded" and "threatened" there is a very simple way he could avoid that. No?
 
jetsam1 said:
I am tired, and very angry. We can do nothing but apologising for Putins aggression I will not accept. If Putin was worried about being "surrounded" and "threatened" there is a very simple way he could avoid that. No?
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If I were in your shoes mate I would be more concerned with the cosy pro Russian position of right Wing Hungarian Prime Minister Victor Orban who has openly shown more suppport for Putin's regime than posts on a Hibs fitba forum ever have..


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joethehibby said:
B better if millions demonstrated
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jetsam1 said:
Ruskik Haza.
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Police state under an authoritarian dictator. Too early yet for mass protests I think. The army needs to spend some time bogged down in urban combat and get enough casualties that cannot be ignored or hid from the population. I think asking people at this stage to go up against the state is premature. Give it a week.

Yeah I am bad for saying the Russian army needs to be beaten. I am such a working class traitor.
 
hibbybilly said:
They’re Ukrainian refugees, might be a few non Ukrainians in amongst them, but Poland are taking them… and their pets if they have them. Good on Poland I say 😊
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They are utter hypocrites in my opinion. Short memories of their racist anti Muslim actions against refugees from the Middle East.

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GORDONSMITH7 said:
If I were in your shoes mate I would be more concerned with the cosy pro Russian position of right Wing Hungarian Prime Minister Victor Orban who has openly shown more suppport for Putin's regime than posts on a Hibs fitba forum ever have..


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Like Boris? He likes Russian money. Lebedev is a Lord of the Realm.

He looked like he was in electoral trouble for a bit. And then the opposition all got together and came up with Marki-Zay. Well. Whoops again.

Well, not being Hungarian how can I affect Orban?

Is the problem Eastern Europe has largely rejected Socialism? Not happy with the result but history has been harsh. The Socialists are routinely slapped with the labe Communist. That means something over here. The UK never experienced what Lenin and Stalin produced.

Social Democracy is ok as a position as the idea is to avoid dictatorship. The far left need dictatorship to enact their ideas.
 
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GORDONSMITH7 said:
They are utter hypocrites in my opinion. Short memories of their racist anti Muslim actions against refugees from the Middle East.

BIG G
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No-one can be good enough. no-one can be pure enough. What do you expect? It has not been that long for a brand new nation to build a civic society.

Actually that does not match a lot of the Hungarian society I have been around. Things are changing. Slowly but they are. The current leadership if the countries are allowed to stay free will be very different in the next 10-15 years.
 
The changing tone from a few posters here from 'Russia are just training, this is NATO warmongering' to 'Russia are terrified, the poor wee mites, they deserve to have forcibly created vassal states' is an incredibly straightforward way of saying that not having to recant your uninformed kneejerk contrarian pub talk opinion matters more than empathising with the loss of real actual human lives
 
the whole thing is a fuckin human tragedy.
Innocent people caught up in a lot of political bollocks.
Whatever folks politics, the fact remains that innocents will be slaughtered in the coming days.
If you can't see past your ideology to realize that's just fucked up, then you've gone wrong somewhere.
load o shite being spraffed on here while folks are grabbing machine guns to defend their homes.
Just imagine what that must be like.
try to just imagine.
this thread has sickened me.
Hibs fans or not, there are a lot of wankpots around.
 
FTJT said:
The changing tone from a few posters here from 'Russia are just training, this is NATO warmongering' to 'Russia are terrified, the poor wee mites, they deserve to have forcibly created vassal states' is an incredibly straightforward way of saying that not having to recant your uninformed kneejerk contrarian pub talk opinion matters more than empathising with the loss of real actual human lives
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Just in case. it is a real war, Romania, Slovakia, Poland and Hungary have very busy borders right now with the Ukraine.

I know we have to basically abandon them to their fate for all the reasons there are but we can feel bad about it and have empathy for those affected.

Same way I have empathy and feel terrible for everyone all over the world who find themselves at the mercy of these kind of arseholes through no fualt of their own before anyone starts. I was against Iraq and Afghanistan. I can also be against Russia now. And it astounds me anyone is not condeming it.
 
barney said:
the whole thing is a fuckin human tragedy.
Innocent people caught up in a lot of political bollocks.
Whatever folks politics, the fact remains that innocents will be slaughtered in the coming days.
If you can't see past your ideology to realize that's just fucked up, then you've gone wrong somewhere.
load o shite being spraffed on here while folks are grabbing machine guns to defend their homes.
Just imagine what that must be like.
try to just imagine.
this thread has sickened me.
Hibs fans or not, there are a lot of wankpots around.
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Yi just cannae Barney. Fuckin horrible.
Seeing civilians waving goodbye tae their families and probably never seeing them again, absolutely heartbreaking.
 
My grandfather fled Ukraine as a young laddie during WW2, he never returned to his homeland or saw his family again. 75 years later and the people of Ukraine are again going through war.

Air raid sirens, massive blasts going off, handing out guns to civilians, people dying for their country… as others have said, you can’t really comprehend what it must be like. The whole thing is utterly tragic.
 
1875 said:
Me too, its not about outdated left and right politics, it is about terrified people.
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My point is all colours and creeds. being terrified, does not take cognicence of skin colour nor religion or where you have fled for your life. Unfortunately within the past 6 years some governments have.

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GORDONSMITH7 said:
My point is all colours and creeds. being terrified, does not take cognicence of skin colour nor religion or where you have fled for your life. Unfortunately within the past 6 years some governments have.

BIG G
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But is that the fault of the people currently fleeing and who need help? The amount of people in shit in the world overwhelms me but this a problem here and now that we have to deal with here and now. And the guy causing it doesn't care.

So what to do? In the world there probably isn't a solution to human misery because of the sheer scale of it. Hope is not gone, but it is a hige thing to overcome.
 
Say what you want about Ukraine but their prime minister and the ex prime minister have balls. They stay with their people when they could have fled. That ex Afghan president could learn something. The men are by and large staying and most likely because they see Zelenski staying. It may seem foolhardy and I dont know if I would have the same guts, but that guy will go down in history...hopefully not as a dead martyr.
The politicians have been marked as being corrupt there for years but he is not doing this for money.
Wonder if mad Vlad would do the same.
 
Davy said:
Say what you want about Ukraine but their prime minister and the ex prime minister have balls. They stay with their people when they could have fled. That ex Afghan president could learn something. The men are by and large staying and most likely because they see Zelenski staying. It may seem foolhardy and I dont know if I would have the same guts, but that guy will go down in history...hopefully not as a dead martyr.
The politicians have been marked as being corrupt there for years but he is not doing this for money.
Wonder if mad Vlad would do the same.
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If the history of Putin is any judge they are going to be martyrs.

Awful as it is.

Kyiv is being attacked currently. I am suprised that they did not move the seat of government as it is really close to the Belorussian border. But kudos for staying.
 
jetsam1 said:
If the history of Putin is any judge they are going to be martyrs.

Awful as it is.

Kyiv is being attacked currently. I am suprised that they did not move the seat of government as it is really close to the Belorussian border. But kudos for staying.
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Yeh I thought they might move further west and difficult territory for tanks
 
Davy said:
Say what you want about Ukraine but their prime minister and the ex prime minister have balls. They stay with their people when they could have fled. That ex Afghan president could learn something. The men are by and large staying and most likely because they see Zelenski staying. It may seem foolhardy and I dont know if I would have the same guts, but that guy will go down in history...hopefully not as a dead martyr.

The politicians have been marked as being corrupt there for years but he is not doing this for money.

Wonder if mad Vlad would do the same.
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It's a difficult one. Stay and become gagged, or worse, by the Russians or become a focal point of hope for the future as a government in absentia?
 
jetsam1 said:
But is that the fault of the people currently fleeing and who need help? The amount of people in shit in the world overwhelms me but this a problem here and now that we have to deal with here and now. And the guy causing it doesn't care.

So what to do? In the world there probably isn't a solution to human misery because of the sheer scale of it. Hope is not gone, but it is a hige thing to overcome.
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Yemen , syria , afghanistan to name three countries where misery is widespread ,
 
Davy said:
Yeh I thought they might move further west and difficult territory for tanks
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The Carpathians would be good ground for defence. Right close to 3 freindly borders. I have the awful feeling that the formal military will be forced to surrender in the coming week and what will replace it will be a general insurrection and guerilla warfare.
 
jetsam1 said:
The Carpathians would be good ground for defence. Right close to 3 freindly borders. I have the awful feeling that the formal military will be forced to surrender in the coming week and what will replace it will be a general insurrection and guerilla warfare.
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That was enough to chase Russia out of Afghanastan before we suffered similar
 
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