NHS Fife tribunal around trans doctor

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Doc Shrink said:
An utter shambles there Archie.
Got to call the judges competency into question I reckon.
In football terms the match should be abandoned and a replay ordered.
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A mix of perplexing reasoning and riddled with errors. Not a good look.
 
A further thought on this. I'm seeing a fair bit of comment that the 'trans' person in both this case and the Fife weren't found to have harassed. This is being seen as a bad thing or some sort of defeat. I actually think it's a good thing. There are some key principles to be determined in these tribunals. If they get bogged down on individual interactions I think it misses the point. It's the organisational failure of institutions that allows these issues to arise, not the individual behaviours. I get the frustration, but the solution to this is not that X person was in the wrong. In my view this will only stop when the organisations stop getting it wrong.
 
Archie said:
A further thought on this. I'm seeing a fair bit of comment that the 'trans' person in both this case and the Fife weren't found to have harassed. This is being seen as a bad thing or some sort of defeat. I actually think it's a good thing. There are some key principles to be determined in these tribunals. If they get bogged down on individual interactions I think it misses the point. It's the organisational failure of institutions that allows these issues to arise, not the individual behaviours. I get the frustration, but the solution to this is not that X person was in the wrong. In my view this will only stop when the organisations stop getting it wrong.
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There is no such thing as 'trans'. There are men and women. That's it. No one can change sex. It's literally fucking impossible These are men with a fetish who have been indulged by organisations that are ideologically captured. Everyone knows this. Why are we still dealing with this bullshit?
This is the left's equivalent of Q-anon or climate change denial. Follow the science! No, not that science! JFC, even Ryan can understand this.
 
Sancho Panza said:
There is no such thing as 'trans'. There are men and women. That's it. No one can change sex. It's literally fucking impossible These are men with a fetish who have been indulged by organisations that are ideologically captured. Everyone knows this. Why are we still dealing with this bullshit?
This is the left's equivalent of Q-anon or climate change denial. Follow the science! No, not that science! JFC, even Ryan can understand this.
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TBF to Archie it reads to me like he is saying that if a mad religious cult takes hold of our institutions, then that is the problem, more than people who lack the courage to stand up to it.

I think that's fundamentally right : courage is to be admired but shouldn't necessarily be a job requirement, especially in a sector where conformity is expected and I suspect selected for (given evidence from workforce profiling)?
 
Sancho Panza said:
There is no such thing as 'trans'. There are men and women. That's it. No one can change sex. It's literally fucking impossible These are men with a fetish who have been indulged by organisations that are ideologically captured. Everyone knows this. Why are we still dealing with this bullshit?
This is the left's equivalent of Q-anon or climate change denial. Follow the science! No, not that science! JFC, even Ryan can understand this.
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Well there are people who identify as the opposite sex. I don't think people change sex and I think there should be same sex provision for toilets, changing rooms and sports. The point I'm making is that a focus on the individual 'trans' person misses the point that it is organisational failure that has allowed many of these situations to develop and addressing that failure will, hopefully, lead to a resolution.

There is no doubt that many of the left have bought into this. But it is not exclusive to them. The Tories drove much of this when they were in power, though they stopped short of self ID. Penny Mordaunt was probably the most vigorous advocate. And the Scottish Government is still fighting to get men in women's prisons. So more nuanced than you suggest.
 
Archie said:
Well there are people who identify as the opposite sex. I don't think people change sex and I think there should be same sex provision for toilets, changing rooms and sports. The point I'm making is that a focus on the individual 'trans' person misses the point that it is organisational failure that has allowed many of these situations to develop and addressing that failure will, hopefully, lead to a resolution.

There is no doubt that many of the left have bought into this. But it is not exclusive to them. The Tories drove much of this when they were in power, though they stopped short of self ID. Penny Mordaunt was probably the most vigorous advocate. And the Scottish Government is still fighting to get men in women's prisons. So more nuanced than you suggest.
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Fair points Archie. I apologise for the unnecessarily aggressive tone last night; I had just killed a bottle of Isle of Harris malt whisky. I just get so exasperated that we're wasting time on stuff like this in 2026 when the NHS is on its knees.
No offence intended. 🙏
 
Archie said:
And the Scottish Government is still fighting to get men in women's prisons. So more nuanced than you suggest.
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Probably still waiting on Bridget Phillipson (Lab, Westminster) signing off the guidance that's been sitting on her Ministerial desk the last few months.
 
Jack said:
Probably still waiting on Bridget Phillipson (Lab, Westminster) signing off the guidance that's been sitting on her Ministerial desk the last few months.
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It appears that politicians in england AND scotland are not prepared to accept the supreme court ruling, they know best, just look at the state the country(s) are in ffs 😡
 
joethehibby said:
It appears that politicians in england AND scotland are not prepared to accept the supreme court ruling, they know best, just look at the state the country(s) are in ffs 😡
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Yup. I think @Jack was been sarcastic. We all know the lawyers party are busy trying to subvert the rule of law.
 
joethehibby said:
It appears that politicians in england AND scotland are not prepared to accept the supreme court ruling, they know best, just look at the state the country(s) are in ffs 😡
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Spot on Joe.

They are hoping that the public will forget that the politicos are making twats of themselves.

I'll have to say I'm taking great delight in watching them get tied up in knots over this.
 
joethehibby said:
It appears that politicians in england AND scotland are not prepared to accept the supreme court ruling, they know best, just look at the state the country(s) are in ffs 😡
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Equality law is reserved, as fully demonstrated by the self ID stuff a few years ago.

The Scottish Government has to wait for Westminster's ministers to provide guidance or face the real possibility of being taken to the High Court by this Labour government as it was by the other unionists.

Of course in many ways it suits the current Labour government to delay its decision as people, like yourself, will lay the blame for nothing happening here on the SNP and Scottish Government.
 
Sancho Panza said:
Fair points Archie. I apologise for the unnecessarily aggressive tone last night; I had just killed a bottle of Isle of Harris malt whisky. I just get so exasperated that we're wasting time on stuff like this in 2026 when the NHS is on its knees.
No offence intended. 🙏
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Worry not - I suspected the water of life might be involved!
 
Jack said:
Equality law is reserved, as fully demonstrated by the self ID stuff a few years ago.

The Scottish Government has to wait for Westminster's ministers to provide guidance or face the real possibility of being taken to the High Court by this Labour government as it was by the other unionists.

Of course in many ways it suits the current Labour government to delay its decision as people, like yourself, will lay the blame for nothing happening here on the SNP and Scottish Government.
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Yet the Scottish Government is persisting on going to court to get men in women's prisons. What other administration is doing that? I think you should look closer to home - keeping the Greens onside for the budget.
 
egb_hibs said:
TBF to Archie it reads to me like he is saying that if a mad religious cult takes hold of our institutions, then that is the problem, more than people who lack the courage to stand up to it.

I think that's fundamentally right : courage is to be admired but shouldn't necessarily be a job requirement, especially in a sector where conformity is expected and I suspect selected for (given evidence from workforce profiling)?
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This is a good article by Jo Bartosch which covers the point you and Archie make. I particularly liked this bit about Sharia law. Had never considered it before.

"In this, the trans ideology that has colonised British institutions operates as a form of Sharia — a system in which the testimony of multiple women is rendered meaningless when it conflicts with the demands of a single man"

thecritic.co.uk

A victory for common sense | Josephine Bartosch | The Critic Magazine

Sex isn’t new, it evolved roughly two billion years ago. Last year, the Supreme Court caught up, recognising male and female as biological categories. Now an employment tribunal has ruled that County…
thecritic.co.uk thecritic.co.uk
 
Archie said:
Yet the Scottish Government is persisting on going to court to get men in women's prisons. What other administration is doing that? I think you should look closer to home - keeping the Greens onside for the budget.
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Because of the current dilly dallying of the Labour government the Scottish Government has no option other than to follow the current guidance.

I'm sure as soon as the Labour government get their finger out the Scottish Government will react.
 
Jack said:
Because of the current dilly dallying of the Labour government the Scottish Government has no option other than to follow the current guidance.

I'm sure as soon as the Labour government get their finger out the Scottish Government will react.
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The guidance point is just a smokescreen that the Scottish Government is using as an argument. This is active pursuit of men in women's prisons. Why are they so determined to push this,? Just to keep the Greens onside?

www.scotsman.com

SNP ministers challenging Supreme Court verdict on gender

For Women Scotland say SNP ministers have not accepted the Supreme Court’s ruling.
www.scotsman.com www.scotsman.com
 
Archie said:
The guidance point is just a smokescreen that the Scottish Government is using as an argument. This is active pursuit of men in women's prisons. Why are they so determined to push this,? Just to keep the Greens onside?

www.scotsman.com

SNP ministers challenging Supreme Court verdict on gender

For Women Scotland say SNP ministers have not accepted the Supreme Court’s ruling.
www.scotsman.com www.scotsman.com
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You're not paying attention.

The Scottish Government must continue to act within the current guidance provided by the Labour government at Westminster. There has been no guidance revised guidance since the High Court decision.

There will be no revised guidance until the Labour government at Westminster gets off its arse and does something with the report that's been sitting on Bridget Phillipsons (Lab, Westminster) desk for months.

IF there is an undue delay in the Scottish Government implementing that guidance, when it's ever produced 🙄, then I'll be critical of them as well. In the meantime ...
 
Jack said:
You're not paying attention.

The Scottish Government must continue to act within the current guidance provided by the Labour government at Westminster. There has been no guidance revised guidance since the High Court decision.

There will be no revised guidance until the Labour government at Westminster gets off its arse and does something with the report that's been sitting on Bridget Phillipsons (Lab, Westminster) desk for months.

IF there is an undue delay in the Scottish Government implementing that guidance, when it's ever produced 🙄, then I'll be critical of them as well. In the meantime ...
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The Scottish Government must act within the law. That's been established by the Supreme Court. They are fighting for the right to house men in women's prisons. The guidance is a red herring. The Scottish Government has already acted on schools following the Supreme Court. They didn't need to wait for UK guidance.

Supporting transgender pupils in schools: guidance for education authorities and schools – revised
 
Archie said:
The Scottish Government must act within the law. That's been established by the Supreme Court. They are fighting for the right to house men in women's prisons. The guidance is a red herring. The Scottish Government has already acted on schools following the Supreme Court. They didn't need to wait for UK guidance.

Supporting transgender pupils in schools: guidance for education authorities and schools – revised
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I would hope so too. Revised guidance was issued to English schools a while ago.
 
Archie said:
So it doesn't need the EHRC guidance.
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Do you think the Scottish Government would act contrary to the guidance in force given what's happened in the past? Parts of the prison guidance, as with schools, has been updated.

Do you think the Scottish Government should go against current guidance, anticipate the guidance that's being sat on and incur the wrath of the Labour government and High Court?
 
Jack said:
Do you think the Scottish Government would act contrary to the guidance in force given what's happened in the past? Parts of the prison guidance, as with schools, has been updated.

Do you think the Scottish Government should go against current guidance, anticipate the guidance that's being sat on and incur the wrath of the Labour government and High Court?
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I think they should obey the law. They don't need the EHRC guidance as you acknowledge with the other circumstances highlighted?

Why are they hell bent on getting men in women's prisons? Why are they holding out playing For Women Scotland's legal costs?

As a nationalist you would think you would want this sorted out. You can be sure Reform will be hammering this.
 
Archie said:
I think they should obey the law. They don't need the EHRC guidance as you acknowledge with the other circumstances highlighted?

Why are they hell bent on getting men in women's prisons? Why are they holding out playing For Women Scotland's legal costs?

As a nationalist you would think you would want this sorted out. You can be sure Reform will be hammering this.
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That part of the Law is obviously unclear. The Scottish Government is asking the question.

God forbid but maybe Bridget Phillipsons (Lab, Westminster) is waiting for the outcome of the case to ensure the much waited on UK guidance reflects the law and can be published.

Of course the UK government could never admit it's waiting on the outcome from a Scottish court 😆 Maybe that's why they appear to be doing nothing.
 
Jack said:
That part of the Law is obviously unclear. The Scottish Government is asking the question.

God forbid but maybe Bridget Phillipsons (Lab, Westminster) is waiting for the outcome of the case to ensure the much waited on UK guidance reflects the law and can be published.

Of course the UK government could never admit it's waiting on the outcome from a Scottish court 😆 Maybe that's why they appear to be doing nothing.
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OK - it's all Labour's fault and nothing to do with the SNP etc etc.
 
Archie said:
OK - it's all Labour's fault and nothing to do with the SNP etc etc.
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Where's the delay coming from?

As I said if the SNP/Scottish Government sit on the guidance I'll be a critic too.

What do you say? We'll give the Scottish Government the same time to implement it as the Labour government has sat on it and until it's released? Fair?
 
Jack said:
Where's the delay coming from?

As I said if the SNP/Scottish Government sit on the guidance I'll be a critic too.

What do you say? We'll give the Scottish Government the same time to implement it as the Labour government has sat on it and until it's released? Fair?
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Is the Westminster Government going to court to force trans women into women's prisons? No.

Is the Scottish Government going to court to argue that not sending trans women to women's prisons breaches their human rights? Yes.

That's nothing to do with guidance. It's about trying to change the law with a declaration of incompatibility. Why? The Greens? Nicola still pulling strings? Whatever the reason it's happening, it's real and it's utterly perplexing, especially with John Swinney.

I try to analyse the actions of people I don't agree with politically. Usually, even when I don't agree with them, I can see a sense to it. I'm mystified with this.
 
Archie said:
Is the Westminster Government going to court to force trans women into women's prisons? No.

Is the Scottish Government going to court to argue that not sending trans women to women's prisons breaches their human rights? Yes.

That's nothing to do with guidance. It's about trying to change the law with a declaration of incompatibility. Why? The Greens? Nicola still pulling strings? Whatever the reason it's happening, it's real and it's utterly perplexing, especially with John Swinney.

I try to analyse the actions of people I don't agree with politically. Usually, even when I don't agree with them, I can see a sense to it. I'm mystified with this.
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Or the Scottish Government clearing up unclear guidelines from the UK government.
 
Archie said:
Is the Westminster Government going to court to force trans women into women's prisons? No.

Is the Scottish Government going to court to argue that not sending trans women to women's prisons breaches their human rights? Yes.

That's nothing to do with guidance. It's about trying to change the law with a declaration of incompatibility. Why? The Greens? Nicola still pulling strings? Whatever the reason it's happening, it's real and it's utterly perplexing, especially with John Swinney.

I try to analyse the actions of people I don't agree with politically. Usually, even when I don't agree with them, I can see a sense to it. I'm mystified with this.
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Its not that much of a mystery : the SNP are captured by the cult just as Labour are. Possibly even more so as they now need a new cause to replace independence.
 
Archie said:
You're a loyal foot soldier, I'll give you that.
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I'm not even a foot soldier, never have been. I can sniff out a made up grievance though.

Why didn't you take me up on the Westminster Vs Scottish Government dilly dally offer?
 
Jack said:
I'm not even a foot soldier, never have been. I can sniff out a made up grievance though.

Why didn't you take me up on the Westminster Vs Scottish Government dilly dally offer?
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Because the EHRC guidance isn't the issue. The guidance issued by SG has been changed for schools for example. But SG is determined to go to court on the prisoner issue. Why?
 
Archie said:
Because the EHRC guidance isn't the issue. The guidance issued by SG has been changed for schools for example. But SG is determined to go to court on the prisoner issue. Why?
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The guidance has been changed for many things in both countries, based on the interim guidance currently available.

The current guidance to government departments is obviously incomplete, not just as a result of the High Court, otherwise the Scottish Government wouldn't need to go to court to test/clarify it.

Would you want the Scottish Prison Service sued by criminals for not doing what is required or not required by the law and or guidance?
 
Jack said:
The guidance has been changed for many things in both countries, based on the interim guidance currently available.

The current guidance to government departments is obviously incomplete, not just as a result of the High Court, otherwise the Scottish Government wouldn't need to go to court to test/clarify it.

Would you want the Scottish Prison Service sued by criminals for not doing what is required or not required by the law and or guidance?
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It is required by law. Nowhere in the Scottish Government's defence do they mention guidance. It's about balancing rights. This was called out by an SNP MSP in the Parliament. She's going at the election, so presumably feels free to speak.

www.holyrood.com

‘Appalling’: SNP MSP hits out at Scottish Government's single-sex prisons stance

John Swinney under pressure on transgender prisoners as For Women Scotland hearing nears
www.holyrood.com www.holyrood.com
 
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