Israel

Yeah I’m not bothered about the second bit, knock yourself out there.

I don’t think it is an important detail - it certainly isn’t material to the point I was making. Total US dollars to Israel since its formation are less than a third of one year’s Israeli GDP - in annual terms way less than 1%. It’s substantially about defence spending as well, rather than nation building. For context, the US has given about half that total to Ukraine since that shitshow kicked off.

The point remains, Israel has created a much more successful state than its neighbours, because they do things differently. If the conflict with Palestine could be magicked away they’d still be hated.
I think we maybe confusing Aid with Direct Investment. It’s not insignificant.
I wasn’t disagreeing with you, yet you are being quite belligerent which was partly the point I was politely trying to make earlier.
Maybe I should be less subtle.
 
I don't know what point you're trying to make. So the Israelis have had aid / investment? So what. With it they have built a country in a few decades that is streets ahead of anywhere in the region with all their natural windfalls from oil. And in contrast to the fortunes of most countries receiving aid.

I really don't see what you are getting at in respect of the post you originally replied to and subsequent.

Oman, Dubai, UAE?
 
Maybe, but Palestine isn’t Hamas.
And I would be wary about stating exactly how much support and approval they actually have form the ordinary Palestinians as well. They seem to have won power in 2006 and then just kept it running on their own agenda which we have seen in the last few days. I doubt any civilians in Gaza are in much of a position to do anything much against them. Publically disapprove of Hamas wouldn't be a good life choice I would imagine ranging from public humiliation to be being bumped off, normally regimes like this are not exactly bothered about how many of their own people get hurt.
 
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I think we maybe confusing Aid with Direct Investment. It’s not insignificant.
I wasn’t disagreeing with you, yet you are being quite belligerent which was partly the point I was politely trying to make earlier.
Maybe I should be less subtle.
Aye whatever. I'm not interesting in slinging arrows at each other. Was only interested in the material point.
 
Oman, Dubai, UAE?
Don't know anything about Oman but Dubai is not really a country just a big casino which rips up every Islamic law in the book for tourists! UAE is Dubai plus the other Emirates I think - it makes plenty from oil even if dubai itself doesn't have any.
 
Those are all very oil rich countries and essentially monarchies with total power wielding by the monarch. Maybe tourists sort of get away with things but put a foot wrong and you will be in serious trouble. You couldn't pay me enough to live in any of these places, you will hardly be a free person with all the restrictions on actions and interactions. Also best not to be female in most of these countries either (I should say that I am not!) as it would be awful.
 
Nothing at all justifies this in any way
No matter how you tart it up

Innocent people are being killed innocent kids blown to pieces

Those same innocent people are being starved of everything. It's fucking disgusting
How am I tarting it up? I'm not attempting to justify anything so no idea what the hell you're on about...
 
How am I tarting it up? I'm not attempting to justify anything so no idea what the hell you're on about...
Well the way it reads is
Hamas are elected in Palestine so basically the whole of Palestine attacked Israel therefore the whole of Palestine is a justified target

If I interpated that wrong I apologise
 
My son reminded me that his pal at school has an Israeli father. Can't wait to inform him about what is going on there.
 
Don't know anything about Oman but Dubai is not really a country just a big casino which rips up every Islamic law in the book for tourists! UAE is Dubai plus the other Emirates I think - it makes plenty from oil even if dubai itself doesn't have any.

Dubai - No its not.

UAE is another emirate that is at least on par with Israel

No idea what you are on about regarding oil. You said Israel was streets ahead of anywhere in the region with all their natural windfalls from oil, its not.
 
Well the way it reads is
Hamas are elected in Palestine so basically the whole of Palestine attacked Israel therefore the whole of Palestine is a justified target

If I interpated that wrong I apologise
My original point is that the people always pay the price for their government's actions. FFS here in the UK and elsewhere we've banned Russian athletes from participation in events because of their government.

The attacks are not proportionate and are indefensible. And I don't see how they in any way "defend" Israel. This isn't attacking Hamas it is attacking Palestinians because the Israelis have no interest in distinguishing between the two.

Are they deliberately punishing Palestinians for having Hamas as their leadership?

My point being that Israel views it as an attack from the Palestinians not Hamas? And if Hamas was an organisation within Gaza like say the IRA was in Ireland that wasn't actually the leadership then would the international community be different in its response?
 
My original point is that the people always pay the price for their government's actions. FFS here in the UK and elsewhere we've banned Russian athletes from participation in events because of their government.

The attacks are not proportionate and are indefensible. And I don't see how they in any way "defend" Israel. This isn't attacking Hamas it is attacking Palestinians because the Israelis have no interest in distinguishing between the two.

Are they deliberately punishing Palestinians for having Hamas as their leadership?

My point being that Israel views it as an attack from the Palestinians not Hamas? And if Hamas was an organisation within Gaza like say the IRA was in Ireland that wasn't actually the leadership then would the international community be different in its response?
I honestly don't think it would.

There has never been international condemnation for the oppression and killings etc that Israel have being doing in Palestine for years

But rightly so the Hamas attack has been
But the rest shouldn't be ignored
 
Dubai - No its not.

UAE is another emirate that is at least on par with Israel

No idea what you are on about regarding oil. You said Israel was streets ahead of anywhere in the region with all their natural windfalls from oil, its not.
Dubai is part of the UAE which makes plenty of money from oil - it has more oil than the USA, and 3% of its population.

United Arab Emirates - Wikipedia

With regard to the highlighted sentence might be my mangled grammar - I mean Israel is streets ahead of any where else in the region despite ‘their’ (meaning elsewhere in the region not Israel - this is where I may be mangled) natural windfalls from oil.
 
I honestly don't think it would.

There has never been international condemnation for the oppression and killings etc that Israel have being doing in Palestine for years

But rightly so the Hamas attack has been
But the rest shouldn't be ignored
Since 2015 the UN general assembly has adopted 140 resolutions criticising Israel and 68 against all other countries combined. Last year it pass more resolutions critical of Israel than all other countries combined.

Source is the Israeli press mind you

UN condemned Israel more than all other countries combined in 2022 — monitor.

Wikipedia doesn’t tally with this but contains a long list, and also notes the UN human rights council has passed nearly half of all its country specific resolutions against Israel

List of United Nations resolutions concerning Israel - Wikipedia

Whoever’s numbers are right your assertion doesn’t seem to be. In fact the UN at least seems tilted in the opposite direction to a ludicrous degree.

Which is why the Israeli’s are unlikely to welcome a UN intervention.
 
Dubai is part of the UAE which makes plenty of money from oil - it has more oil than the USA, and 3% of its population.

United Arab Emirates - Wikipedia

With regard to the highlighted sentence might be my mangled grammar - I mean Israel is streets ahead of any where else in the region despite ‘their’ (meaning elsewhere in the region not Israel - this is where I may be mangled) natural windfalls from oil.

Israel is not streets ahead of the UAE, including Dubai and Abu Dhabi though, that is my point. Nor the Oman or indeed Qatar.

I am still not getting your point?
 
Israel is not streets ahead of the UAE, including Dubai and Abu Dhabi though, that is my point. Nor the Oman or indeed Qatar.

I am still not getting your point?
What I remember about Dubai and being there was that oil wasn't the key economy there:

Economy of Dubai. Contrary to popular belief, Dubai does not have an oil-based economy. The little oil wealth it did enjoy between the 1960s and the 1990s was used to enhance other sectors of its economy by building physical infrastructure.

 
Israel is not streets ahead of the UAE, including Dubai and Abu Dhabi though, that is my point. Nor the Oman or indeed Qatar.

I am still not getting your point?
I think the idea is partly that they built up a pluralistic Democratic state with an advanced economy with minimal natural resources whilst the governance of the oil states are largely based on Oil and Gas and essentially still medieval in outlook?

I say though that Israel is supported by the USA but still it is the only actual democracy in the region and that is one reason the rest of the Middle East hate them.

That is how I read it anyways.
 
Since 2015 the UN general assembly has adopted 140 resolutions criticising Israel and 68 against all other countries combined. Last year it pass more resolutions critical of Israel than all other countries combined.

Source is the Israeli press mind you

UN condemned Israel more than all other countries combined in 2022 — monitor.

Wikipedia doesn’t tally with this but contains a long list, and also notes the UN human rights council has passed nearly half of all its country specific resolutions against Israel

List of United Nations resolutions concerning Israel - Wikipedia

Whoever’s numbers are right your assertion doesn’t seem to be. In fact the UN at least seems tilted in the opposite direction to a ludicrous degree.

Which is why the Israeli’s are unlikely to welcome a UN intervention.
You know exactly what I am referring to.

Any buildings lit up in Palestine flags ?
BBC breaking news reports
Uproar on social media platforms of caged Palestinian children or Palestinian women abused/ shot dead etc

Granted its all out there but fuck all like this.

There isn't even an uproar about the war crimes being committed minute by minute by Israel now
 
Israel is not streets ahead of the UAE, including Dubai and Abu Dhabi though, that is my point. Nor the Oman or indeed Qatar.

I am still not getting your point?
Ok maybe we will have to agree to disagree. I would agree the UAE are doing pretty well by regional standards - they’ve diversified their economy more than most, but it’s still stacked heavily towards natural resources, gold and diamonds according to Wikipedia.

However outside the western enclaves they are still absolute monarchies where the top flight are swimming in lucre but there are still folk getting by on a few dollars a day.

Israel is a modern country - subjective western assessment - that punches well above its weight in scientific and technology innovation while having a far more open society - beyond the huge exception of issues related to the conflict with Palestine.
 
You know exactly what I am referring to.

Any buildings lit up in Palestine flags ?
BBC breaking news reports
Uproar on social media platforms of caged Palestinian children or Palestinian women abused/ shot dead etc

Granted its all out there but fuck all like this.

There isn't even an uproar about the war crimes being committed minute by minute by Israel now
You said international condemnation , and that’s what I took you to mean.

Palestine gets waaaaaay more coverage than most of the persecuted peoples of the world. It’s not even close. That is the most benevolent reason I can think of for the special attention it commands.

The near eradication of Christians in the Middle East for example, gets nowhere near the same attention.

As for social media , I don’t use it but I would be surprised if it gets less coverage than other issues in the world. Very surprised.

Why would you expect buildings in Britain or other countries to be lit up in Palestinian flags?
 
You said international condemnation , and that’s what I took you to mean.

Palestine gets waaaaaay more coverage than most of the persecuted peoples of the world. It’s not even close. That is the most benevolent reason I can think of for the special attention it commands.

The near eradication of Christians in the Middle East for example, gets nowhere near the same attention.

As for social media , I don’t use it but I would be surprised if it gets less coverage than other issues in the world. Very surprised.

Why would you expect buildings in Britain or other countries to be lit up in Palestinian flags?
Why would should they be lit up in Israel flags ?
 
Ok maybe we will have to agree to disagree. I would agree the UAE are doing pretty well by regional standards - they’ve diversified their economy more than most, but it’s still stacked heavily towards natural resources, gold and diamonds according to Wikipedia.

However outside the western enclaves they are still absolute monarchies where the top flight are swimming in lucre but there are still folk getting by on a few dollars a day.

Israel is a modern country - subjective western assessment - that punches well above its weight in scientific and technology innovation while having a far more open society - beyond the huge exception of issues related to the conflict with Palestine.

So what you meant was "Israel is doing better than any country in the region that is not wealthy due to oil and/ or gas"?

Then you go on to describe rich Arab states with superb infrastructure as 'western enclaves'. Not sure an odious, murderous, right wing 'Democracy' who carpet bomb innocents is any "better" than a Emirate.
 
So what you meant was "Israel is doing better than any country in the region that is not wealthy due to oil and/ or gas"?

Then you go on to describe rich Arab states with superb infrastructure as 'western enclaves'. Not sure an odious, murderous, right wing 'Democracy' who carpet bomb innocents is any "better" than a Emirate.
I mean Israel has become a prosperous country by innovation and drive and through an open society, not by some princes finding themselves fortunate enough to be sitting on top of vast oil deposit.

In respect of Dubai et al, I was contrasting life outside the enclaves created for westerners. Dubai is Las Vegas for visitors but outside the spaces licensed for them, is somewhat different.

I'm not sure that faced with a conflict such as that between Israel and Palestine, any other regional power would be more benevolent. Their general approach to dissent suggests otherwise. Outside of that situation, in which they behave terribly at times, Israel's society is streets ahead of its neighbours in my opinion.
 
Theh do but we kinda knew that. A lot of people in the West do not distinguish that Arabs have different cultures altogether. The main thing keeping us relatively safe is that like Christian countries, Muslims countries are not united. God help us if they ever band together as one we would be so outnumbered
Here was me thing Jerusalem was the heart of Christianity.
 
I mean Israel has become a prosperous country by innovation and drive and through an open society, not by some princes finding themselves fortunate enough to be sitting on top of vast oil deposit.

In respect of Dubai et al, I was contrasting life outside the enclaves created for westerners. Dubai is Las Vegas for visitors but outside the spaces licensed for them, is somewhat different.

I'm not sure that faced with a conflict such as that between Israel and Palestine, any other regional power would be more benevolent. Their general approach to dissent suggests otherwise. Outside of that situation, in which they behave terribly at times, Israel's society is streets ahead of its neighbours in my opinion.

Have you seen a "Dubai council house"?
 
I think the idea is partly that they built up a pluralistic Democratic state with an advanced economy with minimal natural resources whilst the governance of the oil states are largely based on Oil and Gas and essentially still medieval in outlook?

I say though that Israel is supported by the USA but still it is the only actual democracy in the region and that is one reason the rest of the Middle East hate them.

That is how I read it anyways.
I think we're stretching the terms pluralistic and democratic here, ask the Palestinians for their view of Israeli democracy.
 
I think we're stretching the terms pluralistic and democratic here, ask the Palestinians for their view of Israeli democracy.
Relative to the rest of the region they are not a monarchy or brutal dictatorship. How about Assad of Syria as a shining example of ruling delightfully? The Sauds for example and the Gulf states? Compared to them Israel has been a functioning democracy with the rule of law at least for Israelis. I take a relative look at them and compare what is around them. I can criticise the state of Israel for its actions against Palestine and the history that has built up to this situation.

I am not condoning Israel. But then you DO have to be careful criticising the Israeli state don't you? But what is going to be the end game here? One side having to be wiped out and a wasteland to be called peace? Iran, Hamas and the immediate neighbours would shed no tears if Israel vanished tomorrow. Also human psychology and nature, the desire for revenge will be high in the Israeli government and this is exactly what Hamas want. A massive reaction to flatten Gaza and they then go "told you so" and get a coalition of Islam to wipe out Israel and all Jews in the Middle East. This is no secret. Totally impractical and unlikely as we do not know how far Iran are prepared to go.
 
I can assure you these flag waving pricks couldn't point to Palestine on a map, far less be able to enter into a discussion about the rights/wrongs/morals/history of the situation.
Maybe because if you tried to point a Palestine on a map compaired to 1916 it'd be miniscule.
 
Have you been on the lash all night ? Where did I say anything like that?

There’s only one group in all this that gets tarred as baby eaters (not here) and it isn’t Palestinians.

Seriously though - please point me to where you got that from?

Edit - when I referred to Christians and Jews getting chased, I meant all over the Middle East. As they have been. Maybe it doesn’t get the obsessive attention that Israel gets, but it’s nonetheless the case and goes back beyond the Israel / Palestine problem
Maybe I should post the video of Chritians in Jerusalem being spat at by Hassidic Jews but then that post might disappear like others of mine have.
 
No but you've had a pop at my mental state about four times on here about a week after my mum's died.You really are a piece of work!
Good try.
I havent had any 'pops' at your mental state on this thread or any other.

I called out your vile comment on the deaths of innocent concert goers.