Israel

[gun ainm]

I don’t think it’s hidden myself. And the aim is the greater good as they see it, which isn’t hidden either.

If anything I think the thing that is overlooked by many is the other side of the coin - what would happen if they didn’t back proxies, however grubby, against communism or Islamism.

The Israelis have a right to self defence, the Palestinians an occupied people do norainians absolutely do.

The death of Israeli civilians are rightly reported as a tragedy, the deaths of Palestinians are reported as unfortunate and we get pleas from western govts for Israel not to be disproportionate in their bombing of children.

Intervention in Ukraine is about the unacceptability of a neighbouring power occupying their territory, we intervene on the side of the occupier in Israel Palestine.

If we are so transactional in our approach to foreign policy can we just drop all this shite? If we no longer care about human rights, self determination and international law then let's say so. If we think some lives are more important than others then shout it from the rooftops, I still believe in principles such as these.

 

[Davy]

40 babies and children found executed by Hamas. A few with their heads chopped off. If anyone still supports Hamas they can just block me cos I have no desire to enter into conversation about them anymore

 

[Davy]

Here was me thing Jerusalem was the heart of Christianity.

If you knew your stuff you would know it is the heart of all three religions. Hence the debates. Christians do not however see it as sadeed in the same way Jews and Muslims see the Wailing wall for example

 

[Findlayhibby]

It’s difficult to know, especially when you strip away the kind of glib rhetoric that the likes of Corbyn specialise in, and consider what could happen if his proposals were adopted. Israel is surrounded by countries representing tens of millions who want to see it smashed. The faux naïveté that claims otherwise won’t cut the mustard with the Israelis not least given Jews and Christians have been slaughtered and / or purged across the Middle East over the course of c20 (starting before Israel was established).

If it cedes ground occupied since the last time they attempted to do, I expect they feel that puts them at further risk.

The Palestinians are in a no win situation either - I mean Syria could have rehoused them decades ago, but it didn’t, indeed have perpetrated their own atrocities on refugee camps. Cyprus hasn’t left it’s northern population as a human sacrifice to contest the Turkish occupation, but Syria I guess is a different animal, as are other potential rescuers like Jordan.

Historical claims - well pick your poison. The Palestinian population are largely a legacy of the Islamic conquests, which displaced or subsumed natives at the point of a sword (some Christian populations remain of course, though if the rest of the region is a guide, wouldn’t last long after a Palestinian victory).

However, they have also been there 1300 years, even longer than the first British colonialists in Ireland, and natives who assimilated with them, and a lot longer than Europeans in the Americas. That can’t just be undone, and Israelis returned after centuries in exile can neither have their condition ignored, nor have it take precedence over Palestinians due to events from thousands of years ago.

Moreover, now that the PLO has been partially supplanted by an Islamist / Nazi death cult - which treats Palestinians abysmally, not least gays - any possibility of a settlement looks ever more remote. It was possible to imagine Israel and the PLO hypothetically reaching an agreement, but Hamas want to wipe out the Jews. And as I say, Jews and Christian’s have been chased all over, with renewed vigour as secularist dictatorships have toppled and Islamic rule ascended - though nowhere as barbarically as the Turkish secularists did either.

Israel is of course, the conflict and its atrocities aside, head and shoulders above anywhere else in the region as a modern liberal society. But the conflict exists, the atrocities exist, and they are part of the Israeli accounts, as it were.

Fuck knows how it ends. If the west ever abandons Israel it would probably end up in a genocide. If they don’t, it will just go on and on, with the Palestinians crushed between all sides. A mess - but then such messes exist around the world, and they go on, and on, and on. There’s sadly nothing unique about it, except for the very particular attention it gets, which remains mysterious.

Goliath was a Philistine(Palestinian)David was a Jew a member of the Judeac sect living in Philistine.

 

[Findlayhibby]

If you knew your stuff you would know it is the heart of all three religions. Hence the debates. Christians do not however see it as sadeed in the same way Jews and Muslims see the Wailing wall for example

Christians make their pilgramage to Jerusalem.

 

[UFB]

40 babies and children found executed by Hamas. A few with their heads chopped off. If anyone still supports Hamas they can just block me cos I have no desire to enter into conversation about them anymore

Fucking horrific c.nts

Just out of curiosity do you have that same opinion of those that support Israel?

 

[gun ainm]

Relative to the rest of the region they are not a monarchy or brutal dictatorship. How about Assad of Syria as a shining example of ruling delightfully?

They are an apartheid state that gives rights to the right people and withholds rights from the wrong people based solely on ethnicity/creed. My issue is we as a country almost unequivocally support that (out of self interest rather than principle) and smear anyone who critises that as antisemitic or self hating. No-one is eulogising the Assad regime we all know it's despicable and we continue to say so even in their fight against ISIS

 

[Findlayhibby]

A catholic counter revolution ? A bunch of old dears swinging hand bags ?!

It remains the case that religion is present in a very small proportion of historical wars, and in almost all of them, ‘religion’ is one particular religion. Secular ideologies have been massively more murderous and aggressive.

“I want what you have” is the actual cause of most wars and it’s all over Israel and Palestine.

The Israelis want a homeland after being butchered in Europe, but unfortunately there were people already there. The Arab world seethes with resentment that Israel has turned one of the least promising strips of real estate in the region into its most advanced country by far, and also benefit from a scapegoat for their own failures. Caught in the middle, the Palestinians wants to remain on the land their antecedents conquered back in the mists of time.

Base human instinct is all over it, but it’s not as simple as dismissing as human greed.

Herzel the father of Jewish Zionism(BTW Christian Zionism was a thing before that was thought of) first considered South America as a place where the Zionists could call a homeland.

 

[egb_hibs]

The Israelis have a right to self defence, the Palestinians an occupied people do norainians absolutely do.

The death of Israeli civilians are rightly reported as a tragedy, the deaths of Palestinians are reported as unfortunate and we get pleas from western govts for Israel not to be disproportionate in their bombing of children.

Intervention in Ukraine is about the unacceptability of a neighbouring power occupying their territory, we intervene on the side of the occupier in Israel Palestine.

If we are so transactional in our approach to foreign policy can we just drop all this shite? If we no longer care about human rights, self determination and international law then let's say so. If we think some lives are more important than others then shout it from the rooftops, I still believe in principles such as these.

If only it were so simple. Do you believe we should have refused to ally with Stalin against Hitler?

Without getting into any particular example, the idea that the US prioritises global threats - as it sees them - is not the same as suggesting some lives are more important than others; it’s in the realm of lesser evils whether you or I agree with any given calculation.

The Israel situation is not analogous to Ukraine. Afaik - and I don’t take the interest others do, so correct me if I’m wrong - the lands Israel occupies are territory it seized in a war of aggression against it, by a coalition from across the Arab world.

I disagree with your characterisation of the coverage of Palestine. It is covered hugely versus other problems in the world, and there is plenty sympathy extended. I’m sorry but I don’t think is surprising that the brutal slaughter of 900 (I believe the count is now up to) civilians in grotesque manner - including rape and murder, parade of corpses, murder of old people or kids at a rave, provokes a reaction. And I’m not surprised, to be frank, that reaction is more visceral than it is to indiscriminate bombing targeting murderers who embed themselves among civilians to provoke the slaughter of the latter in the name of the cause.

I think if Israel did what Hamas just did the outrage would if anything be greater.

None of which is to let Israel off the hook for their conduct in the occupied territories, but it is covered almost to the point of obsession compared to other far away shitshows - there is simply not the one sided coverage you suggest (and that’s before we get to the unique cancellation actions taken against Israeli people).

 

[emerald green]

If you knew your stuff you would know it is the heart of all three religions. Hence the debates. Christians do not however see it as sadeed in the same way Jews and Muslims see the Wailing wall for example

woulnt it be fab for the rest of us if they all just fucked of tho Davy?

 

[egb_hibs]

They are an apartheid state that gives rights to the right people and withholds rights from the wrong people based solely on ethnicity/creed. My issue is we as a country almost unequivocally support that (out of self interest rather than principle) and smear anyone who critises that as antisemitic or self hating. No-one is eulogising the Assad regime we all know it's despicable and we continue to say so even in their fight against ISIS

Yeah and what would happen if they behaved as you preferred ? It’s simply not comparable to apartheid in SA.

 

[egb_hibs]

Maybe I should post the video of Chritians in Jerusalem being spat at by Hassidic Jews but then that post might disappear like others of mine have.

You don’t have to post any video, but I’m not sure what your point is. Some wallopers spitting at people is not the same as violent persecution across a whole region.

 

[Davy]

Christians make their pilgramage to Jerusalem.

I said all 3 see it as integral to their faith. Christians do go on a Pilgramage but it I not something that is expected like visiting Mecca at least once I a lifetime is something most Muslims aspire to

 

[egb_hibs]

Goliath was a Philistine(Palestinian)David was a Jew a member of the Judeac sect living in Philistine.

Lol where did you dig that out from ? The people of Palestine were Jewish and Christian (possibly other things lost to the mists, I dunno) at the time of the Muslim conquest of the region. Palestinian Muslims are either descended from the invaders or, more numerously I believe, are descended from local people who took on the colonialists religion and culture - see Kosovo for another example. That tended to happen in Islam’s colonies, for …reasons. The same pattern is the case across much of the region.

Today’s Palestinian Christians presumably descends all the way back to pre conquest like the indigenous Jews - many Israeli jews are of course descendants of the diaspora.

 

[Davy]

You don’t have to post any video, but I’m not sure what your point is. Some wallopers spitting at people is not the same as violent persecution across a whole region.

Maybe not but if I hit you with facts about how Christians are driven out and attacked in several countries you would just deny it. Anyway I said I do not support what Israel have done. Quite how you can support terrorists I don't know

 

[Findlayhibby]

One thing I've learned from bounce forums is that some people will never change their mind no matter what evidence is provided, ideas or history taught. I suspect there are a lot who never post but are interested in learning and studying and again there are those who have no interest and don't see the point in upsetting their lives with things they can do little to change.

The Bible and other historical documents gives a lot of background as to various occupations of Israel and the surrounding areas. To use documentation of who was present 6000 years ago is a limited perhaps pointless way of trying to identify who belongs where as to follow this route virtually the whole of Europe would be repositioned.

I read up on how Israel was established in its own right after WW2 and it is interesting that for the first few years most people got on well, and in fact the Israelies were welcome as they brought some peace, stability and prosperity to the region. Like many places though it soured later.

One big problem is that Israel really now want to have a Jewish country and where the Jews were spread around the world, a large proportion now see Israel as home. They are growing in numbers and it is very difficult to give the population homes without expansion either upwards in the shape of high rise flats, or outwards in areas which are now seen as occupied areas. Israel in this situation are grabbing land and also limiting movement of Palestinians and opportunities of employment are limited.

Palestinians do themselves no favours by having factions who see Israel as the enemy and so we see fences and border gates. Would they be there if there was good will towards each other? Perhaps, but I'm not sure the situation would be this bad. In this respect there likely is parallels with the sectarian divide in Ireland and Northern Ireland 100 years ago.

The world as a whole is a dangerous place full of rivalry and greed and the most of us look to whoever provides most protection for us. NATO whether you like it or not prevents expansion of Russia, China, Iran etc. Israel are therefore seen as an ally.

The difficulty is now having an ally who limit freedoms of Palestinians and other ethnic groups and are increasingly becoming a one religion nation.

Before we jump on that statement it is worth noting that most Arab and Muslim countries (forgive me if some other politically correct definition should be used) also want to be solely Muslim. This is seen in their belief that where a Mosque is built, that land is now seem as Muslim including the country it is located.

For those here who are happy to have as many immigrants and refugees as want to come, hard line Muslims like ISIS see no borders, but believe in absolute freedom of movement in countries they might control. They just don't particularly like people moving to a non ISIS controlled country unless it is with the intention of expanding their state.

That of course will never be accepted by Israel. Whether you like it or not, the law for millions of Muslims is death to anyone who changes their faith or at best excommunication from their family. We in the West by and large turn a blind eye to this but cannot do so forever as it will come to our doorstep.

Israelis also are not as welcoming as some make out. I have seen recent videos of Jewish pilgrims spitting on the cross as they pass Christians walking the other way.


We could blame religion for everything, but how does that figure when examining Communism? Communism attempted to promote Aetheism and pay homage only to the Communist system and leadership but greed infiltrated that system as well as any other religious country.

Greed and power is the problem not God or the notion of a god.

Right now we see a jostling for land which both sides feel they should have. An issue also prevelant in the Russia/Ukraine war, Azerbajan/Armenia, Serbia/ Kosov and so on.

Where do I stand? Israel have a right to defend themselves, but also they have a responsibility to promote fairness and opportunity to non Israeli occupants and be fair in granting land and not take back what was agreed for someone else. It is a huge problem which sadly does not look like it is going away. but trying to simplify everything by stating religion is the problem masks real issues of greed and power as most people are quite happy to mix and help each other. The far right fundamentalists of all religions fuel hatred and intolerance but they are often driven and encouraged by political leadership hoping for support from the masses.

You've never herd of the Nakba?Millions of Palestinians were physically shot and ethnically cleared out of their homeland and became instant refugees.The Israelis were welcomed?Don't make me laugh!

 

[Davy]

Sorry deleted last reply as I thought it was Moaty I was replying to. I suppose my point was a lot of Christians cozy up to Jews but their hardliners actually detest Christians and the cross. A nd note I said hardliners.. not every person

 

[Findlayhibby]

Lol where did you dig that out from ? The people of Palestine were Jewish and Christian (possibly other things lost to the mists, I dunno) at the time of the Muslim conquest of the region. Palestinian Muslims are either descended from the invaders or, more numerously I believe, are descended from local people who took on the colonialists religion and culture - see Kosovo for another example. That tended to happen in Islam’s colonies, for …reasons. The same pattern is the case across much of the region.

Today’s Palestinian Christians presumably descends all the way back to pre conquest like the indigenous Jews - many Israeli jews are of course descendants of the diaspora.

Kind of hard to be Christian when if the Old Testament is to be even partially believed Christ didn't turn up until about a thousand years after the event.Where do you think the Philistines were?Where it is roughly Jaffa and the surrounding area.I could dig up the wiki page but then again so could you.Palestine was part and parcel of Greater Egypt,eventually ruled over by the Romans,Jews were a small group or sect if you will living side by side with their other Arab neighbours in the greater Leviathan.

 

[egb_hibs]

Kind of hard to be Christian when if the Old Testament is to be even partially believed Christ didn't turn up until about a thousand years after the event.Where do you think the Philistines were?Where it is roughly Jaffa and the surrounding area.I could dig up the wiki page but then again so could you.Palestine was part and parcel of Greater Egypt,eventually ruled over by the Romans,Jews were a small group or sect if you will living side by side with their other Arab neighbours in the greater Leviathan.

Moaty, when do understand the Islamic conquest of Palestine to have taken place ?

 

[Davy]

You've never herd of the Nakba?Millions of Palestinians were physically shot and ethnically cleared out of their homeland and became instant refugees.The Israelis were welcomed?Don't make me laugh!

My mistake. My timeline was out as been some time since I reas much on the subject. Jews and Arabs got on fine and shared similar culture, even some marrying between faiths in the 19th century up till WW1. It has been suggested it was the influx of Western Jews who caused the problem, not understanding local culture or Arabs and were seen as Zionists. This caused stability in the region and might be an early sign that multi culturism is not straightforward.

In the last 20 to 30 years I've seen Christians encouraging Zionism. That is for Jews to move to Israel. Why? Because they believe it was prophesied for Israel to become a nation again and restart and animal sacrifice and so are trying to speed up the process. A bit like zionism by proxy

 

[Hammi]

Im really worried for the rest of the Palestinian people.

What Hamas done and continues to do, is beyond barbaric.
Israels response to flatten the population is extreme in every sense. They're both showing no regard whatsoever for the Palestinian people.

Hamas knew this would be the response. They've set their own population up to be decimated. So that Israel are the big bad.
They've taken the bait and the response is exactly what they wanted.

The people are all that matter and both sides are using them as fodder.

War is ugly as shit, over 300 thousand civilians died in the invasion of Iraq, to pretend that us, America etc are any better in that regard just doesn't add up.

 

[paigntonhibby]

Kind of hard to be Christian when if the Old Testament is to be even partially believed Christ didn't turn up until about a thousand years after the event.Where do you think the Philistines were?Where it is roughly Jaffa and the surrounding area.I could dig up the wiki page but then again so could you.Palestine was part and parcel of Greater Egypt,eventually ruled over by the Romans,Jews were a small group or sect if you will living side by side with their other Arab neighbours in the greater Leviathan.

Arabs weren't in that area till the 7th and 8th centuries

 

[egb_hibs]

Sorry deleted last reply as I thought it was Moaty I was replying to. I suppose my point was a lot of Christians cozy up to Jews but their hardliners actually detest Christians and the cross. A nd note I said hardliners.. not every person

Yeah, a very few, of the kind you get everywhere tbh, most without a back drop like Christian treatment of the Jews for a 1000 years.

 

[egb_hibs]

Arabs weren't in that area till the 7th and 8th centuries

That’s not true. The Palestinians contain within their ranks people descended from the invaders, but also ‘native’ converts and Christians.

As an aside, this makes me laugh at the weegie’s bone headed attempts to turn Israel / Palestine into a proxy for their beef. You can make as much of a case that the Palestinians are analogous to the Anglo Irish colonisers and converts, as you can the other way around.

 

[egb_hibs]

Im really worried for the rest of the Palestinian people.

What Hamas done and continues to do, is beyond barbaric.
Israels response to flatten the population is extreme in every sense. They're both showing no regard whatsoever for the Palestinian people.

Hamas knew this would be the response. They've set their own population up to be decimated. So that Israel are the big bad.
They've taken the bait and the response is exactly what they wanted.

The people are all that matter and both sides are using them as fodder.

War is ugly as shit, over 300 thousand civilians died in the invasion of Iraq, to pretend that us, America etc are any better in that regard just doesn't add up.

Correct. I suspect Hamas’ intent is to spur an apocalyptic response from the Israelis that would bring in the rest of the Arab world.

You can see the logic, wicked though it is; standard fanatic’s playbook tbh.

 

[Hammi]

Sorry deleted last reply as I thought it was Moaty I was replying to. I suppose my point was a lot of Christians cozy up to Jews but their hardliners actually detest Christians and the cross. A nd note I said hardliners.. not every person

Works in all directions.

Plenty Christians, Muslims, Jewish, Pagans and everything in-between spitting on whoever they feel has wronged them or is below them.

Some have established themselves as more socially acceptable cultures. But that element exists in every corner, in every walk of life. Has been since before religion, will be for as long as we're here. Even if we wise up and do away with religion, we'll still be horrible and find reasons.

 

[egb_hibs]

Works in all directions.

Plenty Christians, Muslims, Jewish, Pagans and everything in-between spitting on whoever they feel has wronged them or is below them.

Some have established themselves as more socially acceptable cultures. But that element exists in every corner, in every walk of life. Has been since before religion, will be for as long as we're here. Even if we wise up and do away with religion, we'll still be horrible and find reasons.

If the historical record is a reference we’d get a helluva lot worse!

 

[Forzahibs]

Im really worried for the rest of the Palestinian people.

What Hamas done and continues to do, is beyond barbaric.
Israels response to flatten the population is extreme in every sense. They're both showing no regard whatsoever for the Palestinian people.

Hamas knew this would be the response. They've set their own population up to be decimated. So that Israel are the big bad.
They've taken the bait and the response is exactly what they wanted.

The people are all that matter and both sides are using them as fodder.

War is ugly as shit, over 300 thousand civilians died in the invasion of Iraq, to pretend that us, America etc are any better in that regard just doesn't add up.

Exactly how I see it

 

[Findlayhibby]

Moaty, when do understand the Islamic conquest of Palestine to have taken place ?

Sorry I meant levantine rather than leviathan.But a Philistine(extrapolated to be Palestine peoples )were there from Iron Age Times-the Christians certainly wernae there and Islam not in existance until Mohammed some four centuries later.But Palestinians can trace their roots back to that time.Just as we can trace or roots back to Picts,Celts etc.Jews and Palestine were both Arabic.

 

[egb_hibs]

Sorry I meant levantine rather than leviathan.But a Philistine(extrapolated to be Palestine peoples )were there from Iron Age Times-the Christians certainly wernae there and Islam not in existance until Mohammed some four centuries later.But Palestinians can trace their roots back to that time.Just as we can trace or roots back to Picts,Celts etc.Jews and Palestine were both Arabic.

Yes, but what I said was that at the time of the Islamic conquest, the people of Palestine were Jewish or Christian. Palestinian Muslims today, are either descended from the invaders or were natives who converted to the colonialists’ religion and culture.

I wasn’t referring to thousands of years previous to it.

 

[paigntonhibby]

That’s not true. The Palestinians contain within their ranks people descended from the invaders, but also ‘native’ converts and Christians.

I'm afraid it is true,Egyptians are not arab nor are the berbers.
The arabs came from the Arabian peninsular in the 6th and 7th centuries.
But the rest of your statement is correct

 

[Hammi]

later.But Palestinians can trace their roots back to that time.Just as we can trace or roots back to Picts,Celts etc.Jews and Palestine were both Arabic.

Were Canaanites Arabic though?

 

[Findlayhibby]

Yes, but what I said was that at the time of the Islamic conquest, the people of Palestine were Jewish or Christian. Palestinian Muslims today, are either descended from the invaders or were natives who converted to the colonialists’ religion and culture.

I wasn’t referring to thousands of years previous to it.

Any Palestine has an equal claim to a right to return there as any Zionist brought up in Yonkers.It's historical Palestine.

 

[Archie]

Can the more informed give some insights as to what's in this for Hamas? They've certainly completely upended the situation in Israel and Palestine and shown that they can be a potent force against Israel. But at what cost? They will have expended lots of their arms and have seen many of their fighters killed - no doubt with more to come. Just what is the endgame and the mission aims? In PR terms, they have revolted a number of people in the west who would by sympathetic. The rave was just a slaughter of the demographic in the west who would normally be supportive.

It looks like Gaza is going to take a pounding. Is that simply an action/reaction thing? Is there something else on the horizon?

It's just so distressing and mystifying.

 

[Findlayhibby]

And as I've previously said Herzel originally had his eye on Chile as a place for the Zionists to settle.No idea where the bold came in.But I'd like to see the right to return work in Chile.Also it seems to me that the right of return seems to have changed to the right to have an exit .Don't suppose any Israelis will find themselves on a sinking dingy in the Channel or in a campsite on the border any time soon.Ok so atrocities have undoubtably been commited(on both sides) but to compaire what has happened to Israel to what has become of the Palestine since the seven days war period and beyond doesn't bear thinking about.Another point I could point out is nobody had any problem of calling the place Palestine until the Balfour Declaration in 1916.

 

[EH17 Jimmy]

Can the more informed give some insights as to what's in this for Hamas? They've certainly completely upended the situation in Israel and Palestine and shown that they can be a potent force against Israel. But at what cost? They will have expended lots of their arms and have seen many of their fighters killed - no doubt with more to come. Just what is the endgame and the mission aims? In PR terms, they have revolted a number of people in the west who would by sympathetic. The rave was just a slaughter of the demographic in the west who would normally be supportive.

It looks like Gaza is going to take a pounding. Is that simply an action/reaction thing? Is there something else on the horizon?

It's just so distressing and mystifying.

I've just heard a geezer on't telly saying that the deal that Israel and Saudi Arabia were about to conclude was not to Iran's liking.

Could well be something in that methinks

 

[gun ainm]

Can the more informed give some insights as to what's in this for Hamas? They've certainly completely upended the situation in Israel and Palestine and shown that they can be a potent force against Israel. But at what cost? They will have expended lots of their arms and have seen many of their fighters killed - no doubt with more to come. Just what is the endgame and the mission aims? In PR terms, they have revolted a number of people in the west who would by sympathetic. The rave was just a slaughter of the demographic in the west who would normally be supportive.

It looks like Gaza is going to take a pounding. Is that simply an action/reaction thing? Is there something else on the horizon?

It's just so distressing and mystifying.

Don't think anyone really knows, and I wouldn't claim to be informed but I suspect it's about disrupting the status quo, provoking a backlash and moving the issue front and centre of the world's priorities, the Palestinians have been under blockade in Gaza since 2007 (iirc) and occupation for nearly 60 years. There is no sign of a resolution. That should shame us all. You often hear that living in Gaza is a living hell, an open air jail and that the inhabitants have nothing left to lose.

The Saudis are getting close to a deal with Israel that previously they had said would only happen if Palestine was free. Hamas may want to disrupt that too in the fear that other Muslim countries will also do so, isolating them further

 

[Andy.P]

Aye whatever. I'm not interesting in slinging arrows at each other. Was only interested in the material point.

You say you are only interested in the material but a lot of what you say is opinion dressed up as fact with the odd sweeping generalisation thrown in. Don’t be surprised if someone notices.
They weren’t arrows thrown but a reaction to your substantial output that’s delivered in such a insightful manner.

 

[cleanyman]

Hamas are a disgrace. Murdering children and young people at a music concert ffs

They can hide behind the people but this is entirely on them

What a sorry state of affairs

 

[egb_hibs]

Can the more informed give some insights as to what's in this for Hamas? They've certainly completely upended the situation in Israel and Palestine and shown that they can be a potent force against Israel. But at what cost? They will have expended lots of their arms and have seen many of their fighters killed - no doubt with more to come. Just what is the endgame and the mission aims? In PR terms, they have revolted a number of people in the west who would by sympathetic. The rave was just a slaughter of the demographic in the west who would normally be supportive.

It looks like Gaza is going to take a pounding. Is that simply an action/reaction thing? Is there something else on the horizon?

It's just so distressing and mystifying.

My suspicion is they are trying to provoke a reaction draconian enough to bring in other arab nations and / or mobilise a general uprising of the Palestinian people. It’s cynical af but there we are.