Israel

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Andy.P said:
You say you are only interested in the material but a lot of what you say is opinion dressed up as fact with the odd sweeping generalisation thrown in. Don’t be surprised if someone notices.
They weren’t arrows thrown but a reaction to your substantial output that’s delivered in such an insightful manner.
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What I meant was I was only interested in responding to your point on Israel’s development not arguing with you about whether I’m belligerent or not. I mean I don’t intend to be, and there’s no posts from me on this thread celebrating violence or calling one party or other scum, as there is from others.

I’m not sure where I have dressed up opinion as fact, but then I’m not writing a legal document here I’m saying what I think , and if asked I’ll dredge up evidence to support why I think as I do. My posts can be long winded enough as it is without providing footnotes !
 
moathibby said:
Any Palestine has an equal claim to a right to return there as any Zionist brought up in Yonkers.It's historical Palestine.
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I don’t disagree in principle. But ultimately that’s up to the Palestinians if and when they secure a state.
 
cleanyman said:
Hamas are a disgrace. Murdering children and young people at a music concert ffs

They can hide behind the people but this is entirely on them

What a sorry state of affairs
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Yes and Israel are a disgrace murdering children and young people not just now but for years

Was a sorry state of affairs long before the weekend


Hamas are c.nts
Israel are c.nts

It all needs to stop
 
JFP said:
Yes and Israel are a disgrace murdering children and young people not just now but for years

Was a sorry state of affairs long before the weekend


Hamas are c.nts
Israel are c.nts

It all needs to stop
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Hamas just rolled in on Saturday and are decapatating women and children

We now have the green brigade asking for a display on the 25th October

Who wants associated with that mob
 
cleanyman said:
Hamas just rolled in on Saturday and are decapatating women and children

We now have the green brigade asking for a display on the 25th October

Who wants associated with that mob
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Display for Palestine
Solidarity for the Palestinian people
Read their statement

There is a difference ffs how can c.nts not grasp that
 
egb_hibs said:
What I meant was I was only interested in responding to your point on Israel’s development not arguing with you about whether I’m belligerent or not. I mean I don’t intend to be, and there’s no posts from me on this thread celebrating violence or calling one party or other scum, as there is from others.

I’m not sure where I have dressed up opinion as fact, but then I’m not writing a legal document here I’m saying what I think , and if asked I’ll dredge up evidence to support why I think as I do. My posts can be long winded enough as it is without providing footnotes !
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I appreciate your reply. I wouldn’t chose to reply to others that celebrate violence etc. a waste of time.
There’s just something about your body of Bounce work that
provokes a reaction. I don’t mean to be personal, consider it a sign of respect, your presence on here is obviously a large part of what makes the Cowshed the rich, interesting place it is.
When I work out what’s going on entirely I shall let you know. In the meantime crack on.
 
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cleanyman said:
For what exactly

Why not have a display for Israel ?
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Oppression
Genocide
Apartheid


Just like they have been showing solidarity for years and have raised thousands for Palestinian charities.

Why not have a display for Israel . As above
 
JFP said:
Oppression
Genocide
Apartheid


Just like they have been showing solidarity for years and have raised thousands for Palestinian charities.

Why not have a display for Israel . As above
 
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Folk get murdered at a music concert and in their own homes. Women and children with their heads cut off

Your first response in this thread is stand with Palestine

It is The Kingdom of Israel and it’s got every right to defend its territory
 
paigntonhibby said:
I'm afraid it is true,Egyptians are not arab nor are the berbers.
The arabs came from the Arabian peninsular in the 6th and 7th centuries.
But the rest of your statement is correct
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I read you as referring to ‘Arabs’ as it’s used to designate Palestinians today. Many of those people have ancestry going way back who converted to the Islam of the invaders, rather than being descended from them - though there is an element of that too.

In short, like Moaty is saying, despite some questionable rationales, those people have been on that land since antiquity. However many of todays problems can be traced to that conquest, as well as to other roots.

As I mentioned above, this is a bit like some of the Balkans shenanigans. The Kosovans are Slavs who converted to the religion and culture of Ottoman colonialism and the Serbs can’t let it lie. I mean it’s the Balkans and there is more to it than that, but that’s how a dollop of the ethnic hatred got added to the mix.
 
JFP said:
Oppression
Genocide
Apartheid


Just like they have been showing solidarity for years and have raised thousands for Palestinian charities.

Why not have a display for Israel . As above
 
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Whatever else they have done, the Israelis have not sought to wipe out the Palestinians and given the history of the Jews, accusing them of genocide is gratuitous to say the least, while also diminishing the meaning of a word that ought to be treated seriously.

Criticise them in the strongest terms by all means ; for what they are guilty of. But that chat should be left to the neo Nazis.
 
cleanyman said:
Folk get murdered at a music concert and in their own homes. Women and children with their heads cut off

Your first response in this thread is stand with Palestine

It is The Kingdom of Israel and it’s got every right to defend its territory
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Yes and I do stand with Palestine.
As my morals have always to show solidarity with the oppressed. It's the way I was brought up and I have no shame in that.

What they are doing is not defending its territory though is it.
It's cutting fuel, water and electricity to 2million people , 1million children
It's bombing fuck out of them killing hundreds of innocent people

It's telling them to leave gaza them bombing the only escape route

War crime after fucking war crime
egb_hibs said:
Whatever else they have done, the Israelis have not sought to wipe out the Palestinians and given the history of the Jews, accusing them of genocide is gratuitous to say the least, while also diminishing the meaning of a word that ought to be treated seriously.

Criticise them in the strongest terms by all means ; for what they are guilty of. But that chat should be left to the neo Nazis.
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What word would you use for starving innocent people while firing missle after missile on top of them?
 
JFP said:
What word would you use for starving innocent people while firing missle after missile on top of them?
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Why not describe it as you just have ? Save genocide for when they set out to eradicate them from the face of the earth while turning their remains into soft furnishings.
 
egb_hibs said:
Why not describe it as you just have ? Save genocide for when they set out to eradicate them from the face of the earth while turning their remains into soft furnishings.
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Because it is exactly what they are setting out to do that's why.

ISRAEL’S DEFENSE MINISTER Yoav Gallant used genocidal language and ordered mass war crimes in the occupied Gaza Strip on Monday in response to Hamas’s weekend assault and massacre of Israeli civilians, setting the stage for a large-scale escalation of the violence that has already led to the killing of at least 800 Israelis and more than 500 Palestinians.

Gallant said that he had ordered “a complete siege of the Gaza Strip,” which is home to 2.2 million Palestinians, nearly half of them children. “There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed,” he said. “We are fighting human animals, and we act accordingly.”

What Gallant ordered — the collective punishment of a civilian population — amounts to a war crime under international law, as well as potentially a crime against humanity and the crime of genocide, some international law experts have pointed out.
 
Andy.P said:
I appreciate your reply. I wouldn’t chose to reply to others that celebrate violence etc. a waste of time.
There’s just something about your body of Bounce work that
provokes a reaction. I don’t mean to be personal, consider it a sign of respect, your presence on here is obviously a large part of what makes the Cowshed the rich, interesting place it is.
When I work out what’s going on entirely I shall let you know. In the meantime crack on.
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Well, dare I say it, i don’t think I’m different than anyone else other verbosity and holding on occasion to minority viewpoints. If I was rabbiting on about Tory scum, westmonster, the evils of America, I don’t think I’d stand out.
 
JFP said:
Because it is exactly what they are setting out to do that's why.

ISRAEL’S DEFENSE MINISTER Yoav Gallant used genocidal language and ordered mass war crimes in the occupied Gaza Strip on Monday in response to Hamas’s weekend assault and massacre of Israeli civilians, setting the stage for a large-scale escalation of the violence that has already led to the killing of at least 800 Israelis and more than 500 Palestinians.

Gallant said that he had ordered “a complete siege of the Gaza Strip,” which is home to 2.2 million Palestinians, nearly half of them children. “There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed,” he said. “We are fighting human animals, and we act accordingly.”

What Gallant ordered — the collective punishment of a civilian population — amounts to a war crime under international law, as well as potentially a crime against humanity and the crime of genocide, some international law experts have pointed out.
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‘Language’ isn’t the same as actually attempting to murder an entire race.
 
Children being lead away?Yeah it happened every day on the other side since the 7 days war and the west turned a blind eye.
 
egb_hibs said:
‘Language’ isn’t the same as actually attempting to murder an entire race.
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Ok then.
I'm sure they aren't trying to wipe them out.
Humans can survive without food, medicine and water . And they can dodge all the bombs.
Nothing to see here.
 
moathibby said:
Children being lead away?Yeah it happened every day on the other side since the 7 days war and the west turned a blind eye.
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The west haven't really turned a blind eye.

Even a Tory Prime Minister - David Cameron said "The situation in Gaza has to change, humanitarian goods and people must flow in both directions. Gaza cannot and must not be allowed to remain a prison camp."

I get that words are cheap but as I'd imagine you've been against every UK military intervention in recent history what would you propose?
 
moathibby said:
They had a state it's being illegally occupied.
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Moaty, this subject is not of particular interest to me so do correct me if you know better, but 5 minutes on google suggests Gaza was under the control of the Ottomans and then the Egyptians until the latter attacked Israel.

The West Bank - part of Judea and Samaria if you want to get Biblical again - was part of Ottoman Syria but then allocated by British colonialists to an intended Arab state, but before that could happen was seized by Jordan, until the latter attacked Israel.
 
I look to the Arab risings that happened from Tunisia right across the middle east a few years ago.Revolutionary movements from below.
 
moathibby said:
I look to the Arab risings that happened from Tunisia right across the middle east a few years ago.Revolutionary movements from below.
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What did you conclude from how that turned out?

I wonder what the Israelis concluded.
 
JFP said:
Ok then.
I'm sure they aren't trying to wipe them out.
Humans can survive without food, medicine and water . And they can dodge all the bombs.
Nothing to see here.
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Let me be sure I understand ; are you suggesting you believe Israel is setting out to exterminate the Palestinian population ?
 
egb_hibs said:
Let me be sure I understand ; are you suggesting you believe Israel is setting out to exterminate the Palestinian population ?
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That is exactly what it appears they are trying to do.
There is no way out of gaza
They have cut off supplies of everything required to live and they are raining bombs bringing it all to rubble in the process killing hundreds of innocent people.

What does that suggest to you ? Just so I understand aswell
 
JFP said:
That is exactly what it appears they are trying to do.
There is no way out of gaza
They have cut off supplies of everything required to live and they are raining bombs bringing it all to rubble in the process killing hundreds of innocent people.

What does that suggest to you ? Just so I understand aswell
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It suggests to me a siege. I don’t expect them to try to murder 2 million people.
 
egb_hibs said:
It suggests to me a siege. I don’t expect them to try to murder 2 million people.
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A siege on a large concentration camp

Tbh I think Israel would love nothing more than to blow gaza into the sea.

Whatever the fuck it is it needs to stop
 
JFP said:
A siege on a large concentration camp

Tbh I think Israel would love nothing more than to blow gaza into the sea.

Whatever the fuck it is it needs to stop
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Maybe it would, but it won’t. Unlike what was done to the Jews.
 
egb_hibs said:
What did you conclude from how that turned out?

I wonder what the Israelis concluded.
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Unfinished business,The Muslim Brotherhood seized control of Egypt when it started as more a class based thing.But for a period the thing looked much healthier just as during the Iran Revolution the Islamists rose to the top due in large part to the the lack of a revolutionary party, the Ayatollahs filled the void when the revolution reached an impass.I've lost touch with the Arab Spring activists who visited the UK and spoke and met.But I suspect that movement hasn't gone away.
 
As for an potted history of Israe.l how much do you or anyone else need?I could go on for 50 pages but how many on the Bounce would be willing to read 50 pages worth?Ok I could recommend a pamphlet-Israel the Making of a Racist State an RS21 pamphlet by Neil Rogall.All the facts and figures anyone would need, but I doubt anyone will give it a read.
 
moathibby said:
Unfinished business,The Muslim Brotherhood seized control of Egypt when it started as more a class based thing.But for a period the thing looked much healthier just as during the Iran Revolution the Islamists rose to the top due in large part to the the lack of a revolutionary party, the Ayatollahs filled the void when the revolution reached an impass.I've lost touch with the Arab Spring activists who visited the UK and spoke and met.But I suspect that movement hasn't gone away.
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I hope it hasn’t. But I fear it has proved to be a minority cause, and either way unable to overcome the operations of those societies. I think the Israelis will look at the Iranian left and the Arab spring, and conclude that the likelihood of such a faction presiding over a Palestinian state is low.
 
moathibby said:
As for an potted history of Israe.l how much do you or anyone else need?I could go on for 50 pages but how many on the Bounce would be willing to read 50 pages worth?Ok I could recommend a pamphlet-Israel the Making of a Racist State an RS21 pamphlet by Neil Rogall.All the facts and figures anyone would need, but I doubt anyone will give it a read.
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Not required, I was only asking if you could correct me in what I think I have found, ie there was no Palestinian state prior to the six day war.
 
Smurf said:
This really is a harrowing disturbing read. Fuckin stomach churning.

www.bbc.co.uk

Inside Kfar Aza where Hamas militants killed families in their homes

In Kfar Aza, Israeli soldiers tell the BBC they have uncovered a massacre of civilians, including children and babies.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk
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Depressing on all kinds of levels. Most significantly in the long run, there was hope, however slender, for an Israeli / PLO settlement. There is unlikely ever to be a settlement with jihadi fanatics like this.
 
Other reading-The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine Ilan Pappe The Battle for Justice in Palestine -Ali Abunimah, Married to Another Man-Ghada Karmi The Iron Wall:Israel and the Arab World-Avi Shlaim The Forgotten Palestinians:A History of Palestinians in Israel-Ilan Pappe Imperial Israel and the Palestinians:the Politics of Expansion.Nur Masalha.
Websites Official Website of the BDS Movement https:/bdsmovement.net/ Electronic Intifada https:// electronic intifada.net +972 Magazine https:// 972mag.com/ Middle East Eye Middle East Eye: News, Opinion, and Analysis Palestine Solidarity Campaign Palestine Solidarity Campaign
 
moathibby said:
I look to the Arab risings that happened from Tunisia right across the middle east a few years ago.Revolutionary movements from below.
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Dont you think that would be extremely ugly too?
 
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