Israel

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egb_hibs said:
How do they view Hamas then?

I mean I guess we can get over rape and murder …but a tiny part of me suspects they may also be capable of misgendering people
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The palestinians I know have always criticised Hamas.But when it comes to a war I stand shoulder to shoulder with Hamas in the same way as I linked arms with currents when it came to the picket line up at Timex.Not be the first or last time I've fought on the same side as homophobes,much as I have to tolerate them at ER.
 
moathibby said:
The palestinians I know have always criticised Hamas.But when it comes to a war I stand shoulder to shoulder with Hamas in the same way as I linked arms with currents when it came to the picket line up at Timex.Not be the first or last time I've fought on the same side as homophobes,much as I have to tolerate them at ER.
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So you would, for example, align with neo fascists as the main (only?) opponents of global capitalism in contemporary European politics ?

It’s not for me, I have to admit.

Ps I’m sorry but standing on the picket line is not the same thing as rape and murder. Even Norman Tebbit would see that,
 
moathibby said:
I'm not having a word with anyone.The far right in Isreal are Nazis in all but name.
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‘Nazism’ as in Jew hating socialism? There’s a lot of it about, and always has been for 150 years or so. Not sure Israel, whatever else it’s faults may be, is a hot bed.
 
moathibby said:
The palestinians I know have always criticised Hamas.But when it comes to a war I stand shoulder to shoulder with Hamas in the same way as I linked arms with currents when it came to the picket line up at Timex.Not be the first or last time I've fought on the same side as homophobes,much as I have to tolerate them at ER.
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Your no right in the heid
 
moathibby said:
The palestinians I know have always criticised Hamas.But when it comes to a war I stand shoulder to shoulder with Hamas in the same way as I linked arms with currents when it came to the picket line up at Timex.Not be the first or last time I've fought on the same side as homophobes,much as I have to tolerate them at ER.
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Killing innocent people isn't war, those hundreds for instance at the music festival that where killed where no threat, Hamas went too far and the Palestine population is sadly going to pay the price while Hamas hide in there tunnels.
 
The Stern Gang which included in it's number Moshe Dyan were a terrorist organisation who took part in bombings of British occupying Palestine who saught support from both Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany in their efforts to rid Palestine of Palestinians,not fantasy actual fact.
 
moathibby said:
The Stern Gang which included in it's number Moshe Dyan were a terrorist organisation who took part in bombings of British occupying Palestine who saught support from both Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany in their efforts to rid Palestine of Palestinians,not fantasy actual fact.
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Sounds a bit like the IRA sans foreskins. Do you concur ?
 
Moaty I assume you know that the Palestinian leadership in the ww2 era were chums of the Nazis in their efforts to rid the world of those annoying Jewish chaps?

Apart from the Hamas charter drawing directly from Nazi tropes, I think we can all agree that Jews are clearly the most enthusiastic Nazis allies ever produced by the Levantine region ? I mean it stands to reason.
 
Apparently it’s the sun newspaper that has beguiled hapless Britons into suspecting that our friends standing to the port side, aren’t enormously fond of the Red Sea pedestrians.

Rupert Murdoch , what a prince of lies.
 
moathibby said:
Or perhaps I've read and understood the Marxist position on the Socialist struggle.
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maybe you should stop reading that bollocks and just look at innocent people being murdered and see if u think that is OK.
I have a terrible feeling that perhaps you do.
no more from me on this.
God bless all those that have been murdered in this atrocity.
 
egb_hibs said:
I see what you mean better now, apologies.

I still don’t think it’s similar. Note of caution, the following is just my inexpert understanding; take with a pinch of.

The Old Testament reflects its era where there were slaves everywhere and doesn’t forbid them but as far as I know enjoins people to treat them well and does not direct people to be slavers either. Islam is not dissimilar here I believe. Christianity was a religion of slaves from the get go, and slavery was disapproved of in church history going back even to before Islam started, though it needed secular authorities to recognise that and British military muscle before it was ended much much later.

Islam is different to Christianity in ways significant to the history of the world - for example, Christianity has separation of church and state built in, and the concept of different nations. Islam has no concept of secular law standing apart from religious law, ‘nationalities’ are an imported concept, with the Ummah afaik the only true conception of nation.

The founder of Christianity said those who pick up the sword will die by it, the founder of Islam was a warrior who spread the faith by the sword. The former intervened to stop stoning, some hadiths of Islam - not the Quran - have it endorsed (though there are various schools who argue over the authority of various hadiths). Quran and Hadiths are the basis of Islamic law, but there is plenty in Ceaser’s domain in the Christian tradition. And so on.

Sunni Islam also has no central authority to rule on religious matters like Christianity did until the reformation - even then Ceaser’s intervention was a part of this early doors. And in Islam, religious matters are as above, less distinct from secular. Shia Islam has more centralised authority.

These lead to very different formational influences on society, its governance, and the role of warfare, which are still relevant to conflicts today. Islam was dramatically pacifying and progressive versus pre Islamic Arabia, but it contains precedents for holy war that Christianity doesn’t. I don’t know how Judaism approaches these things - I could try to imagine the OT without the NT but I think that would be very flawed - for one thing, they have loads of other important rabbinical texts as well, going back to antiquity.

That said, Islamic texts also protect the status of Christians and Jews, albeit a second class citizens, something Hamas seem to have taken a pass on.
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cool - rather than seek a debate on religious law my point was a more philosophical one - do we judge adherents of a faith by the laws of their religion/holy texts? if so then the point I took Davy to be making when he said - 'Whether you like it or not, the law for millions of Muslims is death to anyone who changes their faith ... it will come to our doorstep.' was that because of the teachings on Apostacy, Muslims are a threat to us in the UK (I'm surmising, that may not be what was meant). Yet anecdotally my impression is that the law isn't being enforced by state or vigilantes (at all?) in Europe nor am I aware of a desire for that to be so here either - indeed since 2010 'only' 2 countries have executed anyone for apostasy - Iran (1) and Saudi (2) - the killing in the name of god report nonetheless makes sobering reading and there are additional cases of extra judicial and civilian/extremist killings as well as little data from Taliban controlled Afghanistan) However my point here is that practice and theory don't seem to meet in the collective muslim mind and that we'd all hope in time that apostasy in the muslim world would cease being a crime never mind a capital crime, just as Christians have largely stopped punishing blasphemy, taking non-Israelite slaves etc as their/our book also explicitly endorses (very similar to how it was legally codified in the antebellum south US).

if we're supposed to be scared of muslims coming here and executing apostates then to be honest there are 1000 things I'm going to worry about before that.

the second point was about the right to self defence - can both Palestinians and Israelis not reasonably claim that right? In modern times perhaps the Palestinians have greater authority in doing so (their land being occupied by an invading force)? How does the right to self defence apply here - could easily be seen as a way to perpetuate conflict.
 
gun ainm said:
cool - rather than seek a debate on religious law my point was a more philosophical one - do we judge adherents of a faith by the laws of their religion/holy texts? if so then the point I took Davy to be making when he said - 'Whether you like it or not, the law for millions of Muslims is death to anyone who changes their faith ... it will come to our doorstep.' was that because of the teachings on Apostacy, Muslims are a threat to us in the UK (I'm surmising, that may not be what was meant). Yet anecdotally my impression is that the law isn't being enforced by state or vigilantes (at all?) in Europe nor am I aware of a desire for that to be so here either - indeed since 2010 'only' 2 countries have executed anyone for apostasy - Iran (1) and Saudi (2) - the killing in the name of god report nonetheless makes sobering reading and there are additional cases of extra judicial and civilian/extremist killings as well as little data from Taliban controlled Afghanistan) However my point here is that practice and theory don't seem to meet in the collective muslim mind and that we'd all hope in time that apostasy in the muslim world would cease being a crime never mind a capital crime, just as Christians have largely stopped punishing blasphemy, taking non-Israelite slaves etc as their/our book also explicitly endorses (very similar to how it was legally codified in the antebellum south US).

if we're supposed to be scared of muslims coming here and executing apostates then to be honest there are 1000 things I'm going to worry about before that.

the second point was about the right to self defence - can both Palestinians and Israelis not reasonably claim that right? In modern times perhaps the Palestinians have greater authority in doing so (their land being occupied by an invading force)? How does the right to self defence apply here - could easily be seen as a way to perpetuate conflict.
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State executions are not practiced so much other than organisations like The Taliban and ISIS where they are for sure. However O said worst and best scenarios and there are plenty families who have turned their back on children or beaten them for turning from the religion. In Scotland we also saw a hit man drom Pakistan come and kill a Glaswegian shop owner for daring to celebrate Christmas with locals. In other cases woman who have returned home on holiday for some reason do not return. The Koran does teach these things but as I said not every country have it as policy but it happens. Christians are also the most persecuted people in the world and that is fact. And it is chiefly because so called holy books are interpreted as an order to rid the so called enemy.

Whether this will translate to Britain or not I ha e no idea and I don't expect you or I to live in fear wondering. But to say the risk does not exist is to turn a blind eye to the persecution I spoke of and most people do.

As to self defence, of course Palestine like anyone else are entitled to this, but do you see killing civilians in a music festival or dragging them into Gaza as self deffence?
 
JFP said:
You and I know nothing of living in that so claiming no good is irrelevant

Is your post based on the current news ?

Just there has been no similar post about Israeli bombs into Palestine?

Sheesh you can ram up your hole aswell
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Thousands of years of persecution, pogroms, the shoah, and they meekly accepted their fate. The sneak attacks by arab neighbours and a maniac in nuclear ambitious iran that said that Israel should be wiped from the face of the earth. Their response wasn't part of the arab plans. How dare those pesky Jews defend themselves.
 
Davy said:
Was the last point a direct question? My view is I believe in hetrosexual relationships, but I also recognise some people do not feel that way. I do not believe in banning of things because it makes people uncomfortable, and I do not believe banning things works for example the alcohol ban, banning musical releases, banning woman from voting etc. Obviously there is some things I could never agree with, sex with children etc. But whatever my beliefs are they do not stop others living the way they choose, whereas Muslim hardliners will impose their views. Perhaps your question was about fear mongering. In that respect I turn to my earlier point about education. It is generally ill informed and uneducated people who follow blindly. But even educated people are duped, so it really does enforce my belief that we should be educated and question our own beliefs on whatever subject. I do believe a lot of people of different faiths in the UK are here to get away from the dictatorship of their religious and political teachers and I hope it is they who win through over hate. But it is unlikely to change if we always look at a group and tar them with the same brush. For example I have no love of sevco, but I am not going to hate every individual who has chosen them as their team. i prefer to stick to banter. I do not have hatred as the core element of my being
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It wasn’t directed at you at all Davy, in fact it was partly in anticipation of people saying your concerns were invalid.
 
@gun ainm

I do not think we have to worry about honour killings so much, unless of course you defame the Koran, or blaspheme their Prophet. The point was it is pretty middle aged that they continue to practice such things, like you said it may simply be an evolution similar to Christianity. I would say the other point is the restrictions in freedom if there was ever a majority rule. Maybe you would prefer to live under their system. Might be a good idea to ban alcohol and keep woman separate from men, that is matter of opinion, but for people here who seem to hate living under current UK rule, I would be careful; what you wish for

Here is a wiki article on honour killings as I dont have the time to look elsewhere

Honor killings by region - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
gun ainm said:
cool - rather than seek a debate on religious law my point was a more philosophical one - do we judge adherents of a faith by the laws of their religion/holy texts? if so then the point I took Davy to be making when he said - 'Whether you like it or not, the law for millions of Muslims is death to anyone who changes their faith ... it will come to our doorstep.' was that because of the teachings on Apostacy, Muslims are a threat to us in the UK (I'm surmising, that may not be what was meant). Yet anecdotally my impression is that the law isn't being enforced by state or vigilantes (at all?) in Europe nor am I aware of a desire for that to be so here either - indeed since 2010 'only' 2 countries have executed anyone for apostasy - Iran (1) and Saudi (2) - the killing in the name of god report nonetheless makes sobering reading and there are additional cases of extra judicial and civilian/extremist killings as well as little data from Taliban controlled Afghanistan) However my point here is that practice and theory don't seem to meet in the collective muslim mind and that we'd all hope in time that apostasy in the muslim world would cease being a crime never mind a capital crime, just as Christians have largely stopped punishing blasphemy, taking non-Israelite slaves etc as their/our book also explicitly endorses (very similar to how it was legally codified in the antebellum south US).

if we're supposed to be scared of muslims coming here and executing apostates then to be honest there are 1000 things I'm going to worry about before that.

the second point was about the right to self defence - can both Palestinians and Israelis not reasonably claim that right? In modern times perhaps the Palestinians have greater authority in doing so (their land being occupied by an invading force)? How does the right to self defence apply here - could easily be seen as a way to perpetuate conflict.
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Apostasy is not a threat in theory or practice, to non Muslims. However there is no doubt that if Britain ended up Muslim majority, or with a sufficiently sized minority, it would become a radically different country. The same is true if it became a majority Christian, Hindu or Marxist country though the resultant shape would be different. And the very first people to be affected would be British Muslims who wish to live a western lifestyle.

Unlikely, I think, but I can’t really say why because roll the demographic trend forward and that’s what happens. So that trend either changes, or Britain changes.

I remember watching a tv programme about some sweet old Muslim lady who did charity work. It kept being put to her ; should this or that Sharia thing apply in Britain. She of course kept saying no, but I noted the bbc didn’t pick up on her qualifier repeated diligently every time ‘….because it’s not a Muslim society’. Were it to become so, obligations change.

Marine Le Pen is (or at least until a few years ago was, I can’t find any updates) disproportionately supported by gay men because of the changes they are already encountering. French Synagogues have military detachments stationed in them (goodness knows what will happen now). Things will change here too if trends continue; as ever, whether that’s good, bad or indifferent is in the eye of the beholder.
 
egb_hibs said:
Islam is not dissimilar here I believe.
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Wrong, Islam permits slavery; arabs were key traders in East Africa like Zanzibar. It prohibits enslaving another muslim which is why they didn't preach "the religion of peace" to the natives there before putting the shackles on. Its scriptures permit enslaving non muslims - have a look at ISIS and the Yazidis and Boko haram in recent times. Islam is a violent intolerant ideology with aspects of both religion and of military strategy [not unlike Nazism]. It exhorts followers to never be a friend to a jew. Muslims are encouraged to emulate its founder, a man who married a six year old, and a friend's wife, a war criminal who beheaded hundred of jews in his conquest by the sword. Its scriptures state that anyone leaving this 'faith' is to be killed. Obscene.
 
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Roger the Cabin Boy said:
And is the Buddhist/Muslim conflict in southern Thailand an example of just accepting things as they are?
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I said, MY age, MY experience and integrating into a Buddhist culture has helped ME to realise, along with millions of Thais that it is unhelpful to your mental wellbeing to fret over things you can't control. I'll just repeat what I've said before. I say what I mean, nothing else, no grey areas. Anything that someone reads into my posts that isn't there, or wants to expand into something else is whataboutery.
 
Roger the Cabin Boy said:
Spot on,

Spot on. The Grand Mufti endorsed the creation of two SS units made up of muslims.
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There were also other Muslim SS units - or at least units heavily manned by Muslims - from the Balkans. Nazi racism tends to be viewed through the lens of today. They were of course racist af, but not necessarily as that would be viewed today. They viewed Indians as Aryan and Hitler admired Islam and was given to wistful ‘what might have beens’ had Germany being Islamic - he viewed it as a warriors creed vs Christianity.

It was really the Jews they hated, and the Slavs next up.
 
JFP said:
Yes your right posting without thinking so I retract it.
the mass killing of all innocent people is appalling


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This seems to more helpful than the virtue signalling and intellectual dick measuring contests flooding this thread. Cheers.
 
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Yes indeed. Killing is bad.

But the issue is the justifications and ideologies driving people to kill other people. Money, power, religion, political ideologies.......... The number of people you need to buy in to get this level of chaos is large enough that it cannot be explained away as a lone wolf theory. So it has to be something a lot of people believe in and can allow themselves to be pushed into acts of barbarism. Religion and Political Ideology combined with effective propaganda and application of fear as a driver to hate are all viable options.

Here, it is a combo of fear/hate/religion and decades of grievances amplified via outside interference an support from the likes of Iran who would love both Israle and the Saudis to be gone from the world.

And the drive for "traditional" values in Italy through Central Europe is very much birthed from Catholic roots and the old right trying to make a comeback and turn the clock back to what was only an idyll for rich men.
 
I think it's a sin on both sides.


I dont understand the beginning and why nobody seems willing to fix it. I'm starting to think both sides dont even understand where it started and they're both retaliating non stop. *you cant get an impartial telling of what is going on, every report I agenda driven.

They're both rotten. Not sure I'd support either side.
 
JFP said:
Yes your right posting without thinking so I retract it.
the mass killing of all innocent people is appalling


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This bloke knows nothing of Australian history, Australia was colonised as a convict settlement. I tuned out very quickly.
I'm sure that the Israelis would live happily with the arabs, but that pesky habit of suicide bombing gets in the way of harmony
 
Roger the Cabin Boy said:
This bloke knows nothing of Australian history, Australia was colonised as a convict settlement. I tuned out very quickly.
I'm sure that the Israelis would live happily with the arabs, but that pesky habit of suicide bombing gets in the way of harmony
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Maybe not tune out then
 
Hammi said:
I think it's a sin on both sides.


I dont understand the beginning and why nobody seems willing to fix it. I'm starting to think both sides dont even understand where it started and they're both retaliating non stop. *you cant get an impartial telling of what is going on, every report I agenda driven.

They're both rotten. Not sure I'd support either side.
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Successful othering on both sides. Big gap in religion and culture. The hardcore religious zealots on both sides throwing fuel on the fire to keep this going as it brings more support to the extremes and lets them achieve their desire of power and control. Normal stuff really.

The only solution is not acceptable to either sides and definatly not Iran and Syria etc.
 
The jews have been persecuted for millenia. They were enslaved by Egypt, conquered and dispersed by the Romans, discriminated by the christians, subjected to pogroms, the Shoah, sneak attacks by Israeli neighbours and a nuclear ambitious Iranian leader said that Israel should be wiped from the face of the earth. How DARE those jews defend themselves?
The UN is toothless and has not prevented a war since Korea, and that was a fluke. It stood by while for the hutu/tutsi , Dhafur and Yugoslavia genocides took place. Israel understands that it cannot rely on others for its security. Good luck to them
 
egb_hibs said:
Apparently it’s the sun newspaper that has beguiled hapless Britons into suspecting that our friends standing to the port side, aren’t enormously fond of the Red Sea pedestrians.

Rupert Murdoch , what a prince of lies.
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So standing with their left wing nazi pals?
 
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