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- Oct 5, 2021
Thank you, I have to admit to being a simple man and like to answer questions directly. Having said that my answer didn't precisely address the Israel/Palestine conflict but the world in general.
Israel
- Thread starter egb_hibs
- Start date
egb_hibs
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- Jul 2, 2002
How do I dehumanise the Palestinians ?
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- Aug 30, 2002
By painting them as would be eaters of Christian (and Jewish) babies
egb_hibs
Private Member
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- Jul 2, 2002
Why do you take part in these debates ? I mean following your approach, almost every topic discussed here could boil down to:
What do you think of x
…I don’t know / nothing I can do about it / humans are humans it will never change
I mean that’s a fair enough approach, but why then take umbrage when others want to discuss it more ?
egb_hibs
Private Member
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2002
Have you been on the lash all night ? Where did I say anything like that?
There’s only one group in all this that gets tarred as baby eaters (not here) and it isn’t Palestinians.
Seriously though - please point me to where you got that from?
Edit - when I referred to Christians and Jews getting chased, I meant all over the Middle East. As they have been. Maybe it doesn’t get the obsessive attention that Israel gets, but it’s nonetheless the case and goes back beyond the Israel / Palestine problem
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- Joined
- Jun 27, 2002
Some numbers…around 5M people live in Palestine, and 10M in Israel of around 2M are Arabs.
Doesn’t take much to work out the oppressive Israelis aren’t on a path to long term peace as the maps below show. In fact, the 2008 map looks suspiciously like the apartheid South African 1980s homelands maps.
139 countries recognize the state of Palestine, but surprise, surprise not the UK, USA, Israel so I wonder what narrative we get in our media.
Doesn’t take much to work out the oppressive Israelis aren’t on a path to long term peace as the maps below show. In fact, the 2008 map looks suspiciously like the apartheid South African 1980s homelands maps.
139 countries recognize the state of Palestine, but surprise, surprise not the UK, USA, Israel so I wonder what narrative we get in our media.
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2021
First of all stop judging my approach. "Almost" "Could"??? This is my problem with you, you misquote, you read into posts what you think is said and not what is actually said and you go off on tangents not even mentioned. Your repeated astonishment at others views borders on arrogant and you just can't ever be wrong.
Ever wondered why only 2 or 3 folk ever take you on?
Anyway if I feel I have something to say I will.
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2002
Demographics provide an interesting insight but I can’t work out what is going on:
Population of Palestine
1970 1M
1980 1.4M
1990 1.9M
2000 3.1M
2010 4.1M
2020 5.0M+
Israel
1970 3M
1980 3.9M
1990 4.8M
2000 6.4M
2010 7.7M
2020 9.5M+
Those numbers are completely mental
Population of Palestine
1970 1M
1980 1.4M
1990 1.9M
2000 3.1M
2010 4.1M
2020 5.0M+
Israel
1970 3M
1980 3.9M
1990 4.8M
2000 6.4M
2010 7.7M
2020 9.5M+
Those numbers are completely mental
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2002
Having it researched it on the internet for at least two minutes, resolution actually seems straightforward.
Palestine recognizes Israel
Israel recognizes Palestine
Every country in the world recognizes both countries
Draw a few lines on a map
Everyone can move on
Palestine recognizes Israel
Israel recognizes Palestine
Every country in the world recognizes both countries
Draw a few lines on a map
Everyone can move on
egb_hibs
Private Member
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- Jul 2, 2002
Och get over yourself, it was you who made a snippy response to my post and it’s not the first time.
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2021
"That didn't take long, sheesh"
"Go back to sleep"
" Have you been on the lash all night"
"Get over yourself"
4 of your responses on this thread alone, not all to me. Arrogant!
Cut this pish out.
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2002
In your efforts to rebalance what you view as the obsession with Israel on the left (and elsewhere) I think you choose language that overly simplifies the conflict as if this was star wars, that includes painting the Israelis as holding back the savage Arab. I get part of that is you taking a contrarian view to generate debate or bait those of us who see great injustice in Palestine.
Want drinking last night but yeah might be tired and grumpy
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egb_hibs
Private Member
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- Jul 2, 2002
Yes and quite the complication for arguments about democracy. While it would be nice, if the Israelis did what some would like they’d be voted into annihilation at some stage.
A two state solution of some kind does seem the only answer. Hamas don’t want one. The Israelis are moving into the hands of people who may not either.
egb_hibs
Private Member
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- Jul 2, 2002
Really?
The first was in response to the subject immediately attracting the nonsense this topic so often does
The second was in response to your pointless response to something not addressed to you, in which you implied it had made you fall asleep
The third was to some made up nonsense
And the fourth… well
Honestly, if you don’t like my posts, just ignore them. But don’t act all offended if you get a response when you have a dig.
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- Oct 5, 2021
Haha your amazing, so not arrogant but holier than thou responses to posts you deem nonsense or pointless. Over to you, I know how you love the last word
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- Aug 30, 2002
The Israelis have the power, if they genuinely proposed a 2 state solution based on reasonable borders I think you'd see Hamas change or lose their support base. Fact is Israelis don't want it they want a single state with Israelis at the top
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2002
The central point here is probably obvious, and surprisingly comes from a solution close to
home.
You have to get the sides talking, and you have to get a bit of goodwill that both want a lasting peace. I’m not quite sure how we got to the Good Friday agreement even now, but it was kept alive by the belief there was a better way forward.
And you might probably say…ah but this is way more complicated…and you might be right, but you think sooner or later enough people on both sides will say there is a much better way forward.
That sounds so glib
home.
You have to get the sides talking, and you have to get a bit of goodwill that both want a lasting peace. I’m not quite sure how we got to the Good Friday agreement even now, but it was kept alive by the belief there was a better way forward.
And you might probably say…ah but this is way more complicated…and you might be right, but you think sooner or later enough people on both sides will say there is a much better way forward.
That sounds so glib
egb_hibs
Private Member
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- Jul 2, 2002
Sorry R, but that doesn’t cover what you accused me of. I nowhere said anything of the kind you suggested. Moreover, what I did say was accurate - for more than a hundred years, Christian and Jewish populations have been getting persecuted and driven out of the Middle East. It continues today, and Hamas are at it with Palestinian Christians, as well as with gay people and so on.In your efforts to rebalance what you view as the obsession with Israel on the left (and elsewhere) I think you choose language that overly simplifies the conflict as if this was star wars, that includes painting the Israelis as holding back the savage Arab. I get part of that is you taking a contrarian view to generate debate or bait those of us who see great injustice in Palestine.
Want drinking last night but yeah might be tired and grumpy
It may not get the same attention - quite why, is a question for the ages - but it has happened and is happening. Maybe an independent Palestine would buck the trend, but given Hamas’ escapades, I see no particular reason to believe that.
If you want to conclude that’s the ‘savage Arab’ that’s up to you. I’m just stating what’s going on and has been for a long time. It can’t be ignored when looking at the dynamics of the situation.
And it’s not a contrarian view, I’m just refusing to buy into simplistic accounts. That’s not contrarian. There is injustice in Palestine, there is injustice all over that benighted region. The two cannot be separated.
Archie
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- Jul 13, 2002
I think a number of factors led to the Good Friday Agreement. There was war weariness. All sides recognised that they couldn’t win. And the Omagh bombing was indefensible and led people to agreeing there had to be another way.The central point here is probably obvious, and surprisingly comes from a solution close to
home.
You have to get the sides talking, and you have to get a bit of goodwill that both want a lasting peace. I’m not quite sure how we got to the Good Friday agreement even now, but it was kept alive by the belief there was a better way forward.
And you might probably say…ah but this is way more complicated…and you might be right, but you think sooner or later enough people on both sides will say there is a much better way forward.
That sounds so glib
The fact that Britain and Ireland were part of the EU gave legitimacy to both governments being involved which took out a lot of heat. It also allowed key players to physically be taken out of NI to somewhere neutral. And lots of cash from the EU flowed in post deal.
The US position was very focused on getting a deal rather than the long term future of the whole island. And Tony Blair was much more deal orientated his predecessors.
I don’t see any of these conditions in Israel and Palestine.
egb_hibs
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- Jul 2, 2002
Yup, I just agreed that’s the direction of travel with the current administration. The Israelis have tried to reach such agreement before, and it’s failed, with blame on both sides I’m quite sure.
egb_hibs
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- Jul 2, 2002
WhatevsHaha you’re amazing, so not arrogant but holier than thou responses to posts you deem nonsense or pointless. Over to you, I know how you love the last word
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2005
One thing I've learned from bounce forums is that some people will never change their mind no matter what evidence is provided, ideas or history taught. I suspect there are a lot who never post but are interested in learning and studying and again there are those who have no interest and don't see the point in upsetting their lives with things they can do little to change.
The Bible and other historical documents gives a lot of background as to various occupations of Israel and the surrounding areas. To use documentation of who was present 6000 years ago is a limited perhaps pointless way of trying to identify who belongs where as to follow this route virtually the whole of Europe would be repositioned.
I read up on how Israel was established in its own right after WW2 and it is interesting that for the first few years most people got on well, and in fact the Israelies were welcome as they brought some peace, stability and prosperity to the region. Like many places though it soured later.
One big problem is that Israel really now want to have a Jewish country and where the Jews were spread around the world, a large proportion now see Israel as home. They are growing in numbers and it is very difficult to give the population homes without expansion either upwards in the shape of high rise flats, or outwards in areas which are now seen as occupied areas. Israel in this situation are grabbing land and also limiting movement of Palestinians and opportunities of employment are limited.
Palestinians do themselves no favours by having factions who see Israel as the enemy and so we see fences and border gates. Would they be there if there was good will towards each other? Perhaps, but I'm not sure the situation would be this bad. In this respect there likely is parallels with the sectarian divide in Ireland and Northern Ireland 100 years ago.
The world as a whole is a dangerous place full of rivalry and greed and the most of us look to whoever provides most protection for us. NATO whether you like it or not prevents expansion of Russia, China, Iran etc. Israel are therefore seen as an ally.
The difficulty is now having an ally who limit freedoms of Palestinians and other ethnic groups and are increasingly becoming a one religion nation.
Before we jump on that statement it is worth noting that most Arab and Muslim countries (forgive me if some other politically correct definition should be used) also want to be solely Muslim. This is seen in their belief that where a Mosque is built, that land is now seem as Muslim including the country it is located.
For those here who are happy to have as many immigrants and refugees as want to come, hard line Muslims like ISIS see no borders, but believe in absolute freedom of movement in countries they might control. They just don't particularly like people moving to a non ISIS controlled country unless it is with the intention of expanding their state.
That of course will never be accepted by Israel. Whether you like it or not, the law for millions of Muslims is death to anyone who changes their faith or at best excommunication from their family. We in the West by and large turn a blind eye to this but cannot do so forever as it will come to our doorstep.
Israelis also are not as welcoming as some make out. I have seen recent videos of Jewish pilgrims spitting on the cross as they pass Christians walking the other way.
We could blame religion for everything, but how does that figure when examining Communism? Communism attempted to promote Aetheism and pay homage only to the Communist system and leadership but greed infiltrated that system as well as any other religious country.
Greed and power is the problem not God or the notion of a god.
Right now we see a jostling for land which both sides feel they should have. An issue also prevelant in the Russia/Ukraine war, Azerbajan/Armenia, Serbia/ Kosov and so on.
Where do I stand? Israel have a right to defend themselves, but also they have a responsibility to promote fairness and opportunity to non Israeli occupants and be fair in granting land and not take back what was agreed for someone else. It is a huge problem which sadly does not look like it is going away. but trying to simplify everything by stating religion is the problem masks real issues of greed and power as most people are quite happy to mix and help each other. The far right fundamentalists of all religions fuel hatred and intolerance but they are often driven and encouraged by political leadership hoping for support from the masses.
The Bible and other historical documents gives a lot of background as to various occupations of Israel and the surrounding areas. To use documentation of who was present 6000 years ago is a limited perhaps pointless way of trying to identify who belongs where as to follow this route virtually the whole of Europe would be repositioned.
I read up on how Israel was established in its own right after WW2 and it is interesting that for the first few years most people got on well, and in fact the Israelies were welcome as they brought some peace, stability and prosperity to the region. Like many places though it soured later.
One big problem is that Israel really now want to have a Jewish country and where the Jews were spread around the world, a large proportion now see Israel as home. They are growing in numbers and it is very difficult to give the population homes without expansion either upwards in the shape of high rise flats, or outwards in areas which are now seen as occupied areas. Israel in this situation are grabbing land and also limiting movement of Palestinians and opportunities of employment are limited.
Palestinians do themselves no favours by having factions who see Israel as the enemy and so we see fences and border gates. Would they be there if there was good will towards each other? Perhaps, but I'm not sure the situation would be this bad. In this respect there likely is parallels with the sectarian divide in Ireland and Northern Ireland 100 years ago.
The world as a whole is a dangerous place full of rivalry and greed and the most of us look to whoever provides most protection for us. NATO whether you like it or not prevents expansion of Russia, China, Iran etc. Israel are therefore seen as an ally.
The difficulty is now having an ally who limit freedoms of Palestinians and other ethnic groups and are increasingly becoming a one religion nation.
Before we jump on that statement it is worth noting that most Arab and Muslim countries (forgive me if some other politically correct definition should be used) also want to be solely Muslim. This is seen in their belief that where a Mosque is built, that land is now seem as Muslim including the country it is located.
For those here who are happy to have as many immigrants and refugees as want to come, hard line Muslims like ISIS see no borders, but believe in absolute freedom of movement in countries they might control. They just don't particularly like people moving to a non ISIS controlled country unless it is with the intention of expanding their state.
That of course will never be accepted by Israel. Whether you like it or not, the law for millions of Muslims is death to anyone who changes their faith or at best excommunication from their family. We in the West by and large turn a blind eye to this but cannot do so forever as it will come to our doorstep.
Israelis also are not as welcoming as some make out. I have seen recent videos of Jewish pilgrims spitting on the cross as they pass Christians walking the other way.
We could blame religion for everything, but how does that figure when examining Communism? Communism attempted to promote Aetheism and pay homage only to the Communist system and leadership but greed infiltrated that system as well as any other religious country.
Greed and power is the problem not God or the notion of a god.
Right now we see a jostling for land which both sides feel they should have. An issue also prevelant in the Russia/Ukraine war, Azerbajan/Armenia, Serbia/ Kosov and so on.
Where do I stand? Israel have a right to defend themselves, but also they have a responsibility to promote fairness and opportunity to non Israeli occupants and be fair in granting land and not take back what was agreed for someone else. It is a huge problem which sadly does not look like it is going away. but trying to simplify everything by stating religion is the problem masks real issues of greed and power as most people are quite happy to mix and help each other. The far right fundamentalists of all religions fuel hatred and intolerance but they are often driven and encouraged by political leadership hoping for support from the masses.
Smurf
Private Member
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- May 15, 2003
One of they posts that reminds you of how fuckin tremendous this place the Bounce is. Thanks.
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2002
2 things for me in your very broad but very decent summarisation
1. If apostasy laws in Islam are a fundamental problem does that not create a tension with your inference that religion is not a key issue (rather power/greed) if religion is an issue, is it only Islam? What do we make if biblical teaching on slavery for example?
2. Your last paragraph there seems to suggest a parental obligation for Israelis, I don't know if that's your intention but for example do Palestinians not also have the right to defend themselves? If not why not, does the occupation convey rights to Israelis and take away rights from the occupied?
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egb_hibs
Private Member
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- Jul 2, 2002
@gun ainm
This stuff amazes me, this loss of perspective between theoretical points you can conjure up and actual reality. Where in the world do you see slavery operated by Jews or Christian’s under ‘biblical teaching’? I mean it was Christians that belatedly ended it because of Christianity and the Jews don’t practice it either. Islamic tenets of the kind Davy talks of are by comparison very much ‘operational procedures’.
Talk of ‘religion’ is no more descriptive here than talk of ‘politics’ or ‘philosophy’. Religions have common ground and gaping differences, whether Theistic ones or Atheistic ones; it’s impossible to understand the world without understanding that.
This stuff amazes me, this loss of perspective between theoretical points you can conjure up and actual reality. Where in the world do you see slavery operated by Jews or Christian’s under ‘biblical teaching’? I mean it was Christians that belatedly ended it because of Christianity and the Jews don’t practice it either. Islamic tenets of the kind Davy talks of are by comparison very much ‘operational procedures’.
Talk of ‘religion’ is no more descriptive here than talk of ‘politics’ or ‘philosophy’. Religions have common ground and gaping differences, whether Theistic ones or Atheistic ones; it’s impossible to understand the world without understanding that.
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2002
Obviously there's a difference between practice and theory that's my point, views on the punishment for apostasy in the islamic world are contested in a way that might be crudely analogous to some biblical teachings in the Christian world's relatively recent past. Is it the existence of the law or the way it is practiced (or not) that is important?
Dier - 1558
Private Member
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- Jan 4, 2023
As usual, Israel backed by the US against the Middle Eastern Arabs.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2005
I will reply soon to your good points
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- Mar 23, 2005
Iran are sending ammunition to Russia, allies are exactly what they say on the tin. All countries look after their own interests
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- Jun 27, 2002
Got to think if China or Russia wanted a proxy war, arming the Palestinians would be a great way to kick one off.
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2002
I do think it's in Israeli long term interest to find a resolution before global power shifts away from the US. Israel having nukes does give them some cover from that I suppose but...
Jack
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- Nov 11, 2007
Braverman wants ‘full force of law’ used on displays of Hamas support
The Home Secretary made the comments following videos appearing to show people celebrating the attack on Israel.
Braverman wants ‘full force of law’ used on displays of Hamas support
The Home Secretary made the comments following videos appearing to show people celebrating the attack on Israel.
news.stv.tv
bigmanandy
Aulder Than The Internet This Radge
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2006
The whole things pointless, I do get the Palestine side and all the stolen land and als9 get the Isreali side etc but to come to murdering innocent people is unacceptable, instability in the region is good for nobody and Lebonan and more concerning Iran could get involved.
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- Jun 18, 2022
I'm very surprised that Mossad never knew about the planned attacks.
bigmanandy
Aulder Than The Internet This Radge
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2006
Russia and Iran are a bit cosy just now, bit of disruption for the west who will have to turn a eye to help Israel?
Dier - 1558
Private Member
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- Jan 4, 2023
What do we expect from one of the sectarian bigot brothers.
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2005
.
And if the The Huns hudnae had bad results the last couple of games you wid probably seen their answer tae the Dodgers banner supporting Israel.
Findlayhibby
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- Mar 20, 2007
Victory to the Intifada! And yes some of my mates are Palestinians and so I know something about it.