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Found this interesting piece by accident on Google.
Celtic's Complicated Relationship With Hibernian – (Part 1) | The Celtic Star
Celtic's Complicated Relationship With Hibernian – (Part 1) | The Celtic Star
A complicated relationship
- Thread starter Beagle
- Start date
1875
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So far so good I would say? Interested to see Part 2 and in particular Glass's involvement.
SlovSam
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Why do I think its all going to go wrong in part 2.
.However to be fair that is all top class research of anorak proportions.✌
Findlayhibby
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Sorry to see we had to raise funds to feed the poor back in the 1880's as well as today.
1875
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- Jul 17, 2003
But glad to say we did.
1875
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- Jul 17, 2003
Celtic's Complicated Relationship With Hibernian - (Part 2) | The Celtic Star
(Follows from Part 1) That Hibs played a huge part in Celtic’s formation is a fact which has never been denied. But what many people fail to note is some of the differences in the operation of the clubs, which distinguished the pair. The founding fathers of Celtic didn’t wish to simply imitate...
thecelticstar.com
Pretty much so far, so good, although no mention of the stealing of our players yet, maybe in Part 3 tomorrow.
1875
LEGENDARY RADGE
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- Jul 17, 2003
Part 4, where Liam drifts into the world of player stealing, again pretty fair although no mention of the pubs Celtc supposedly gifted the Glasgow based Hibs players to entice them back, and the the classic old firm whattaboutery of Hibs doing the same thing to other wee clubs.
Best appraisal of the early days of our bastard offspring written by a Celtc man so far imo.
thecelticstar.com
Best appraisal of the early days of our bastard offspring written by a Celtc man so far imo.
Celtic's Complicated Relationship With Hibernian - (Part 3) | The Celtic Star
Having covered the role of Hibernian in Celtic’s foundation (Part 1), and explored the differences between the clubs in the earliest days (Part 2), this article looks at the demise of the original Hibernian and allegations that Celtic were to blame. The most commonly heard accusation is that...
thecelticstar.com
SlovSam
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- Jun 19, 2003
There are some real gems in this material such as Celtc twice giving donations to help prop up a financially ailing Hibs evidenced with precise details that's nothing less than outstanding historical research.
The author's general conclusion that the original Hibs club was racked by Irish political turmoil and factional infighting and financially bankrupt due to the theft of the club funds is very accurate as is his outline description of how "backhanders" and "inducements" paved the way towards early professional football contracts.
There is a Celtc slant to his writing as you would expect but he acknowledges the huge part Hibs played in Celtics foundation I don't have a problem with any of his conclusions.
Its light years ahead of the "Celtc stole all oor players" garbage you hear from the Hibs pub bores which should have been put to bed years ago as the real story is far more complex, fascinating and interesting..
The author's general conclusion that the original Hibs club was racked by Irish political turmoil and factional infighting and financially bankrupt due to the theft of the club funds is very accurate as is his outline description of how "backhanders" and "inducements" paved the way towards early professional football contracts.
There is a Celtc slant to his writing as you would expect but he acknowledges the huge part Hibs played in Celtics foundation I don't have a problem with any of his conclusions.
Its light years ahead of the "Celtc stole all oor players" garbage you hear from the Hibs pub bores which should have been put to bed years ago as the real story is far more complex, fascinating and interesting.
.
Canon Hannan
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- Jul 26, 2014
I’ll need to check my Lugton book about Flood but he doesn’t mention the Farmers and other parishioners of St Mary’s Stella Maris that funded the restart in part 3.
1875
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- Jul 17, 2003
Part 4 here and I think Liam really has got it, missed a few bits and bobs but I reckon he might of read the Lugtons and 100 years of Hibs, impressive as I bought and read Dundee United's centenary book but turn the page anytime I see anything about Celtc. Good. I am impressed so far, although we all need to research the tale of the pubs used as an enticement by Glass to get Glasgow based Hibs players to join the lesser greens.
thecelticstar.com
Article 5 talks about where we are now, I think its fair to say, we dinnae like each other, they hate the Wisnae for the Hibees you'd be huns stuff ( I will sing it on Monday, its true and it boils their pish), maybe the song really is they'd be Hibs, but that disnae hurt as much?
I personally hate the souptakers stuff and their adopted Irishness as someone with Irish and much more importantly Scottish roots.
Celtic’s Complicated Relationship With Hibernian – (Part 4) | The Celtic Star
Celtic and Hibernian have had some tempestuous moments over the last century and beyond. Fact and fiction combine in supporters’ analysis of these moments, particularly where Harry Swan is concerned. This article seeks to redress matters by giving an objective analysis of two key points of...
thecelticstar.com
Article 5 talks about where we are now, I think its fair to say, we dinnae like each other, they hate the Wisnae for the Hibees you'd be huns stuff ( I will sing it on Monday, its true and it boils their pish), maybe the song really is they'd be Hibs, but that disnae hurt as much?
I personally hate the souptakers stuff and their adopted Irishness as someone with Irish and much more importantly Scottish roots.
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emerald green
Private Member
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2006
your on fire young manPart 4 here and I think Liam really has got it, missed a few bits and bobs but I reckon he might of read the Lugtons and 100 years of Hibs, impressive as I bought and read Dundee United's centenary book but turn the page anytime I see anything about Celtc. Good. I am impressed so far, although we all need to research the tale of the pubs used as an enticement by Glass to get Glasgow based Hibs players to join the lesser greens.
Celtic’s Complicated Relationship With Hibernian – (Part 4) | The Celtic Star
Celtic and Hibernian have had some tempestuous moments over the last century and beyond. Fact and fiction combine in supporters’ analysis of these moments, particularly where Harry Swan is concerned. This article seeks to redress matters by giving an objective analysis of two key points of...
Article 5 talks about where we are now, I think its fair to say, we dinnae like each other, they hate the Wisnae for the Hibees you'd be huns stuff ( I will sing it on Monday, its true and it boils their pish), maybe the song really is they'd be Hibs, but that disnae hurt as much?
I personally hate the souptakers stuff and their adopted Irishness as someone with Irish and much more importantly Scottish roots.
Canon Hannan
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- Jul 26, 2014
Excellent series and I see he has name checked the Bounce and is taking comments from here.
1875
LEGENDARY RADGE
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- Jul 17, 2003
I am very impressed, the research is first class, Slov Sam and I are itching for that first massive faux pas. I did name check the articles on a Celtc podcast I do from a Hibs angle.
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Canon Hannan
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- Jul 26, 2014
I’ve just added a comment about Harry Swan and his friend Monsignor Miley. Celtic fans way off with regards to Swan.
SlovSam
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- Jun 19, 2003
Here is the letter we sent to "The Celtc View" all those years which to their great credit they published in full, well apart from the comparison to Jim Farry.
Hopefully the Celtc guy pops back to read.
Dear Sir,
‘Fly The Flag’
I refer to your article ‘Fly the Flag’ published on 14th January 2004 in relation to Harry Swan chairman of Hibernian FC and his supposed attempt to ‘eradicate all Irish references and links to the Edinburgh club’, specifically the old harp mosaic’s which adorned the main South entrance.
In fact ’The Harp’ remained in place for the first 22 years of Mr Swan’s chairmanship until ground reconstruction and deterioritation in the mid 1950’s meant the entrance had to be demolished. In its place an expensive new mosaic harp was commissioned from craftsman in Ireland and shipped over to Easter Road where it hung in the boardroom. When Harry Swan died it was gifted to his widow by the club.
Interestingly Mr Swan had also appointed his very close friend, the catholic priest Monsignor Miley as ‘players councillor’ the first and very forward looking post in Scottish football. Furthermore on the death of his advisor and fellow director Owen Brannigan who was ‘the last of the Auld Irish’, Mr Swan carried the Hibernian wreath in the form of a traditional broken harp to the Requiem Mass at St Partricks Cathedral in Edinburgh.
I would also like to point out in relation to the ‘Flag flutter’ that it was originally the Glasgow Magistrates not Mr Swan who advocated the ‘flag ban’, that it was the Referee’s Committee who upheld that decision (incidentally a committee that was chaired by Sir Robert Kelly not Mr Swan) and that it was the very dubious George Graham the secretary of the SFA (the undoubted Jim Farry or Ernie Walker of his day) who had overall responsibility for implementing the recommendations of the Glasgow Magistrates and the Referee’s Committee.
Ultimately, while I would completerly agree that the SFA adopted a very heavy handed and extremely confrontational approach to Celtic FC during the ‘Flag flutter’ of 1952 , I would suggest that to imply that Mr Swan had some heinous anti Irish and anti Celtic agenda is both unfair and highly inaccurate.
Yours faithfully,
Hopefully the Celtc guy pops back to read.
Dear Sir,
‘Fly The Flag’
I refer to your article ‘Fly the Flag’ published on 14th January 2004 in relation to Harry Swan chairman of Hibernian FC and his supposed attempt to ‘eradicate all Irish references and links to the Edinburgh club’, specifically the old harp mosaic’s which adorned the main South entrance.
In fact ’The Harp’ remained in place for the first 22 years of Mr Swan’s chairmanship until ground reconstruction and deterioritation in the mid 1950’s meant the entrance had to be demolished. In its place an expensive new mosaic harp was commissioned from craftsman in Ireland and shipped over to Easter Road where it hung in the boardroom. When Harry Swan died it was gifted to his widow by the club.
Interestingly Mr Swan had also appointed his very close friend, the catholic priest Monsignor Miley as ‘players councillor’ the first and very forward looking post in Scottish football. Furthermore on the death of his advisor and fellow director Owen Brannigan who was ‘the last of the Auld Irish’, Mr Swan carried the Hibernian wreath in the form of a traditional broken harp to the Requiem Mass at St Partricks Cathedral in Edinburgh.
I would also like to point out in relation to the ‘Flag flutter’ that it was originally the Glasgow Magistrates not Mr Swan who advocated the ‘flag ban’, that it was the Referee’s Committee who upheld that decision (incidentally a committee that was chaired by Sir Robert Kelly not Mr Swan) and that it was the very dubious George Graham the secretary of the SFA (the undoubted Jim Farry or Ernie Walker of his day) who had overall responsibility for implementing the recommendations of the Glasgow Magistrates and the Referee’s Committee.
Ultimately, while I would completerly agree that the SFA adopted a very heavy handed and extremely confrontational approach to Celtic FC during the ‘Flag flutter’ of 1952 , I would suggest that to imply that Mr Swan had some heinous anti Irish and anti Celtic agenda is both unfair and highly inaccurate.
Yours faithfully,
SlovSam
Private Member
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2003
This one is from Mass Hibsteria fanzine around the time of the 2012 Cup Final which tends to reach much the same conclusions as this current excellent Celtc series.
For If You (Don’t) Know Your History by Slov Sam: Hibees Bounce
Celtic supporters (spelt Celtc courtesy of the ‘Green Brigade’s’ infamous 2007 visit to Easter Road where their banners spelt the clubs name wrong) often like to patronise Hibs fans with their ‘wee cousins’ comedy routine repeating their base mantra of ‘Aye bit we stole aww yir players und youse went bankrupt’ whenever the subject of Hibs/Celtc history is discussed.
As often is the case however fact is far more interesting than myth and in 19th century Scotland Hibernian FC was a very different political animal than today. This resulted in a far more complex and interesting set of reasons for the demise of the original Hibernian club rather than the very simplistic accusation of Celtc simply poaching the Hibs players through large financial inducements as football thundered towards the new professional era.
Hibs players of the time were nominally amateur with generous "allowances and expenses" many of whom actually came from the West of Scotland so its not exactly a huge surprise they were attracted back into their own communitys with the promise of professional above board contracts
Back in 1875 it had been these same ‘wee cousins’ formed a full 13 years ahead of Neil Lennon’s great grandfather serving his first touchline ban who had been the original advocates of education, food and literacy programmes for the immigrant Irish population of Scotland as well as maintaining a keen and active involvement in the unfolding Irish politics of the time.
Michael Davitt and Charles Stewart Parnell leading Irish politicians visited Easter Road to address major political gatherings and Hibs ball boy, James Connolly tragically remains the most famous of all Hibernian supporters. Celtc supporters would of course die for such illustrious Irish patriots in their formative core but instead have to make do with their modern day equivalents of Billy Connolly and Susan Boyle.
It was the Irish Home Rule struggle which dominated politics for latter part of the 19th century and was ultimately to prove become a key factor in the demise of the first Hibernian club as naturally many Hibernian members and club officials wanted to actively support this powerful political movement through boycotts and political agitation.
This brought the club members and club officials into serious conflict with Canon Hannon Hibs co-founder and the upper echelons of the Catholic Church who wanted nothing to do with political campaigning and activism. As a result numerous Hibernian committee men were forced or voluntarily resigned including Michael Flannigan the club president.
Now lacking club officials, a rapidly shrinking membership and devoid of funds due to an internal embezzlement by the club secretary then it was not surprising that Hibernian were unable to counter the monetary enticements of Celtc and their newly formed professional club structure. That is a long way from Celtc simply stealing players from their ‘wee cousins’ and it offers Hibernian a rare and unique history that is far more interesting, fascinating and complex than the one usually formulated.
Harry Swan, European visionary and the highly successful chairman of Hibernian FC (1931 to 1963) has also fallen victim to the Celtc revisionists via a very dubious article in the ‘The Celtc View’ the official Celtc club newspaper with his supposed attempt to ‘eradicate all Irish references and links to the Edinburgh club’, specifically the old harp mosaic’s which adorned the main South entrance to Easter Road.
In fact ’The Harp’ remained in place for the first 23 years of Mr Swan’s chairmanship until ground reconstruction and deterioration in the mid 1950’s meant the entrance had to be demolished. In its place an expensive new mosaic harp was commissioned from craftsman in Ireland and shipped over to Easter Road where it hung in the boardroom. When Harry Swan died it was gifted to his widow by the club.
Interestingly Mr Swan had also appointed his very close friend, the senior Catholic priest Monsignor Miley as ‘players councillor’ the first and very forward looking post in Scottish football. Furthermore on the death of his great advisor, mentor and fellow director Owen Brannigan who was ‘the last of the Auld Irish’, Mr Swan carried the Hibernian wreath in the form of a traditional broken harp to the Requiem Mass at St Patricks Church in Edinburgh’s Cowgate.
Not content with misrepresenting Hibs history, Celtc are not exactly shy when it comes to their own history as the conceived and universally recognised wisdom for the first 100 years of their existence was that Celtic were formed for the very principled reason to raise funds in order to provide food, clothing and education for the poor and destitute Catholic Irish immigrant population of the East End of Glasgow.
Fast forward to the 21st century and the era of corporate responsibility and Celtc are presently publishing on their official website a very laudable social mission statement but one which rather brazenly adds that the club were also formed ‘’So that Scottish and Irish, Protestants and Catholics alike could all have a club to support. This new football club would be a vehicle to bring all the communities of Glasgow together’.
Eye watering stuff which might have the original Celtc founder Brother Walfrid and the far more significant John Glass whirling in their graves.
Rather than merely misrepresenting history that seems to completely invent a brand new history, though one which hopefully someone has told the ‘Green Brigade’ about as this newly created social integration and all inclusive community chapter of Celtc’s early history might easily form the ideal basis for another George Square dememonstration/deminstation/demrostration if only everyone could agree with the spelling.
So enjoy the cup final but remember to take numerous of photos of James McPake with that cup because in 10 years’ time, Celtc supporters armed with airbrush and Photoshop may well have replaced our own Saint James with Hoopy the Huddle Hound.
For If You (Don’t) Know Your History by Slov Sam: Hibees Bounce
Celtic supporters (spelt Celtc courtesy of the ‘Green Brigade’s’ infamous 2007 visit to Easter Road where their banners spelt the clubs name wrong) often like to patronise Hibs fans with their ‘wee cousins’ comedy routine repeating their base mantra of ‘Aye bit we stole aww yir players und youse went bankrupt’ whenever the subject of Hibs/Celtc history is discussed.
As often is the case however fact is far more interesting than myth and in 19th century Scotland Hibernian FC was a very different political animal than today. This resulted in a far more complex and interesting set of reasons for the demise of the original Hibernian club rather than the very simplistic accusation of Celtc simply poaching the Hibs players through large financial inducements as football thundered towards the new professional era.
Hibs players of the time were nominally amateur with generous "allowances and expenses" many of whom actually came from the West of Scotland so its not exactly a huge surprise they were attracted back into their own communitys with the promise of professional above board contracts
Back in 1875 it had been these same ‘wee cousins’ formed a full 13 years ahead of Neil Lennon’s great grandfather serving his first touchline ban who had been the original advocates of education, food and literacy programmes for the immigrant Irish population of Scotland as well as maintaining a keen and active involvement in the unfolding Irish politics of the time.
Michael Davitt and Charles Stewart Parnell leading Irish politicians visited Easter Road to address major political gatherings and Hibs ball boy, James Connolly tragically remains the most famous of all Hibernian supporters. Celtc supporters would of course die for such illustrious Irish patriots in their formative core but instead have to make do with their modern day equivalents of Billy Connolly and Susan Boyle.
It was the Irish Home Rule struggle which dominated politics for latter part of the 19th century and was ultimately to prove become a key factor in the demise of the first Hibernian club as naturally many Hibernian members and club officials wanted to actively support this powerful political movement through boycotts and political agitation.
This brought the club members and club officials into serious conflict with Canon Hannon Hibs co-founder and the upper echelons of the Catholic Church who wanted nothing to do with political campaigning and activism. As a result numerous Hibernian committee men were forced or voluntarily resigned including Michael Flannigan the club president.
Now lacking club officials, a rapidly shrinking membership and devoid of funds due to an internal embezzlement by the club secretary then it was not surprising that Hibernian were unable to counter the monetary enticements of Celtc and their newly formed professional club structure. That is a long way from Celtc simply stealing players from their ‘wee cousins’ and it offers Hibernian a rare and unique history that is far more interesting, fascinating and complex than the one usually formulated.
Harry Swan, European visionary and the highly successful chairman of Hibernian FC (1931 to 1963) has also fallen victim to the Celtc revisionists via a very dubious article in the ‘The Celtc View’ the official Celtc club newspaper with his supposed attempt to ‘eradicate all Irish references and links to the Edinburgh club’, specifically the old harp mosaic’s which adorned the main South entrance to Easter Road.
In fact ’The Harp’ remained in place for the first 23 years of Mr Swan’s chairmanship until ground reconstruction and deterioration in the mid 1950’s meant the entrance had to be demolished. In its place an expensive new mosaic harp was commissioned from craftsman in Ireland and shipped over to Easter Road where it hung in the boardroom. When Harry Swan died it was gifted to his widow by the club.
Interestingly Mr Swan had also appointed his very close friend, the senior Catholic priest Monsignor Miley as ‘players councillor’ the first and very forward looking post in Scottish football. Furthermore on the death of his great advisor, mentor and fellow director Owen Brannigan who was ‘the last of the Auld Irish’, Mr Swan carried the Hibernian wreath in the form of a traditional broken harp to the Requiem Mass at St Patricks Church in Edinburgh’s Cowgate.
Not content with misrepresenting Hibs history, Celtc are not exactly shy when it comes to their own history as the conceived and universally recognised wisdom for the first 100 years of their existence was that Celtic were formed for the very principled reason to raise funds in order to provide food, clothing and education for the poor and destitute Catholic Irish immigrant population of the East End of Glasgow.
Fast forward to the 21st century and the era of corporate responsibility and Celtc are presently publishing on their official website a very laudable social mission statement but one which rather brazenly adds that the club were also formed ‘’So that Scottish and Irish, Protestants and Catholics alike could all have a club to support. This new football club would be a vehicle to bring all the communities of Glasgow together’.
Eye watering stuff which might have the original Celtc founder Brother Walfrid and the far more significant John Glass whirling in their graves.
Rather than merely misrepresenting history that seems to completely invent a brand new history, though one which hopefully someone has told the ‘Green Brigade’ about as this newly created social integration and all inclusive community chapter of Celtc’s early history might easily form the ideal basis for another George Square dememonstration/deminstation/demrostration if only everyone could agree with the spelling.
So enjoy the cup final but remember to take numerous of photos of James McPake with that cup because in 10 years’ time, Celtc supporters armed with airbrush and Photoshop may well have replaced our own Saint James with Hoopy the Huddle Hound.
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1875
LEGENDARY RADGE
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2003
Didnae enjoy this part as much, although Liam works hard to understand the differences, I am not sure many Hibs fans see Celtc fans as glory hunters, other than those from in and around Edinburgh. He is of course correct that Queens Park were the big Glasgow club when Celtc were formed but If it wisnae for the Hibees you’d be spiders just disnae upset them much. No mention of the despicable souptakers term used by Celtic fans to refer to us though. Still an excellent effort though.
thecelticstar.com
Celtic's Complicated Relationship With Hibernian – (Part 5) | The Celtic Star
The first four parts of this series have covered the historical events between Celtic and Hibernian at committee/boardroom level. Our clubs have been on different trajectories at different points in the last 130 plus years or so. Part 5 is about some of the fallout associated with those...
thecelticstar.com
SlovSam
Private Member
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2003
I thought he lost his way a little bit in Part 5 and used the 'Gloryhunting " tag remorseslly just as an excuse to find a way to bring his very impressive historical arguments to the table.
I didn't think it was necessary as I have never felt Hibs fans as a whole regard Celtc fans who don't support Hibs as just a bunch of "gloryhunters" as we now see Celtc very much as part of the Corporate duopoly that completely dominates Scottish football and a club we no longer have much in common with other than very old history.
I don't think he quite gets that after WW2 and Hibs success of 1950's Hibs moved away naturally from their hard core Irish roots of the 19th Century.
This was further extended by the social changes in Edinburgh as the slum areas of central Edinburgh and the Leith port area were cleared and the Hibs core support moved to the newly built estates on the outskirts of town and just assimiliated into mainstream Scottish society.
Similarly he begins to take himself just a bit to seriously when trying to analyze and disect the songs "If it wisnae for the Hibees yid be Huns" or "We were first to wear the Green"
It's cheery football banter with a strong basis in history used to wind up other supporters and as any Hibs fan will know it works so well but it's not meant to be seen as a definitive historical statement of actual fact.
It does hit the mark though as Celtc fans have absolutely no response and are forced to listen with teeth clenched..
That's all it is though and it doesn't mean much more than "We are the greatest team the world has ever seen" does.
It's still very impressive writing and research by the Celtc guy though and how refreshing it is to see a Celtc fan approach this debate so open mindedly but I did think Part 5 was just a wee bit forced and tried to shoehorn in arguments that arent really there.
I didn't think it was necessary as I have never felt Hibs fans as a whole regard Celtc fans who don't support Hibs as just a bunch of "gloryhunters" as we now see Celtc very much as part of the Corporate duopoly that completely dominates Scottish football and a club we no longer have much in common with other than very old history.
I don't think he quite gets that after WW2 and Hibs success of 1950's Hibs moved away naturally from their hard core Irish roots of the 19th Century.
This was further extended by the social changes in Edinburgh as the slum areas of central Edinburgh and the Leith port area were cleared and the Hibs core support moved to the newly built estates on the outskirts of town and just assimiliated into mainstream Scottish society.
Similarly he begins to take himself just a bit to seriously when trying to analyze and disect the songs "If it wisnae for the Hibees yid be Huns" or "We were first to wear the Green"
It's cheery football banter with a strong basis in history used to wind up other supporters and as any Hibs fan will know it works so well but it's not meant to be seen as a definitive historical statement of actual fact.
It does hit the mark though as Celtc fans have absolutely no response and are forced to listen with teeth clenched.
.That's all it is though and it doesn't mean much more than "We are the greatest team the world has ever seen" does.
It's still very impressive writing and research by the Celtc guy though and how refreshing it is to see a Celtc fan approach this debate so open mindedly but I did think Part 5 was just a wee bit forced and tried to shoehorn in arguments that arent really there.
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1875
LEGENDARY RADGE
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2003
Part Six, Liam talks politics, yet fails to explain why some Celtc fans support Labour and the United KIngdom whilst being so passionate about the Irish Republic and for some, Sinn Fein. Yet Scottish Nationalism is very popular with many Hibs fans, and it is fair to say we are also a left leaning support I would suggest. I also would like to understand why many Celtc fans feel it important to sing non football related Irish songs so much at the game, can they not keep that for the 'clubs, pubs and brake clubs'? Maybe it will be addressed in tomorrows piece, it wasnt clear in today's piece?
I found the reference to booing of Amhrán na bhFiann/ the Soldier Song and Fields of Athenry at a Cup Final strange, I cannot remember that happening particularly? Like many other Hibs fans, I ken the words and have sang the songs, but would never think to do so at a Hibs match? Weird.
Overall Liam does try to identify the key differences and is accurate on how the East Coast Irish diaspora integrated into Scottish society, and the continued anti catholic/ anti irish racism prevalent in the west of Scotland, although he maybe underestimates how much our Irish roots, those green strips, the very name Hibernian means to many of us. I have to say I am very comfortable with Hibernian's inclusive support, I couldnae care less where you come from, what religion you are or are not, the colour of your skin, who you vote for or any other divisive keech. Every club has dafties, the bigger the club, the more dafties follow them.
Keep it going Liam, it is generally good although it was always going to have a Celtc bias.
thecelticstar.com
I found the reference to booing of Amhrán na bhFiann/ the Soldier Song and Fields of Athenry at a Cup Final strange, I cannot remember that happening particularly? Like many other Hibs fans, I ken the words and have sang the songs, but would never think to do so at a Hibs match? Weird.
Overall Liam does try to identify the key differences and is accurate on how the East Coast Irish diaspora integrated into Scottish society, and the continued anti catholic/ anti irish racism prevalent in the west of Scotland, although he maybe underestimates how much our Irish roots, those green strips, the very name Hibernian means to many of us. I have to say I am very comfortable with Hibernian's inclusive support, I couldnae care less where you come from, what religion you are or are not, the colour of your skin, who you vote for or any other divisive keech. Every club has dafties, the bigger the club, the more dafties follow them.
Keep it going Liam, it is generally good although it was always going to have a Celtc bias.
Celtic's Complicated Relationship With Hibernian – (Part 6) | The Celtic Star
Part 5 challenged some of the narratives perpetuated by supporters when it comes to Celtic and Hibernian. This article touches on aspects of those narratives again, by looking at the complexity of the different identities expressed by fans of the two clubs. Given that both share a similar...
thecelticstar.com
Brizo
Just A Radge
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2005
Found it an interesting read with the same reservations that 1875 and Slov have.
The post-WW2 football boom coupled with the arrival of the FF and the success that they brought attracted tens of thousands of new fans to ER, few of whom shared the clubs origins. Introducing an amended Edinburgh coat of arms as the crest used in day-to-day business (while keeping the harp on the stadium wall) was designed to give the club a more Edinburgh identity and appeal to a whole new fan base; while continuing to remain true to our roots, heritage, and original support.
Obviously written from a Celtic pov it's a far better and balanced read than previous stuff I've read from Celtic historians.
Our relationship with our Irish origins has always been a complicated one. For a while, I felt those origins were swept under the carpet by successive boards and only with the arrival of STF and our current crest was the balance righted. With our 150th anniversary around the corner, it'll be interesting to see whether RG with his corporate mindset thinks our origins are something to proudly proclaim or underplay in 2025 ?
The post-WW2 football boom coupled with the arrival of the FF and the success that they brought attracted tens of thousands of new fans to ER, few of whom shared the clubs origins. Introducing an amended Edinburgh coat of arms as the crest used in day-to-day business (while keeping the harp on the stadium wall) was designed to give the club a more Edinburgh identity and appeal to a whole new fan base; while continuing to remain true to our roots, heritage, and original support.
Obviously written from a Celtic pov it's a far better and balanced read than previous stuff I've read from Celtic historians.
Our relationship with our Irish origins has always been a complicated one. For a while, I felt those origins were swept under the carpet by successive boards and only with the arrival of STF and our current crest was the balance righted. With our 150th anniversary around the corner, it'll be interesting to see whether RG with his corporate mindset thinks our origins are something to proudly proclaim or underplay in 2025 ?
UFB
Unrepentant Fenian Bastard
- Joined
- Jun 15, 2019
Would be nice to see the harp badge for the season
SlovSam
Private Member
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2003
Part 6 was a very interesting and accurate read though after the first quarter you began to struggle to find that many references to Hibs as its now quite hard to pigeon hole Hibs fans or Hibs as a club into any convenient category.
It's a little unfair on such well researched and excellent analysis but "The Celtc Paranoia" is always bubbling under as I am struggling to remember any concerted booing of the rebel songbook at the 2013 cup final or any other cup final for that matter.
It does happen to both "Celtc" and "Scotland's Shame 2012" at Easter Road though and in equal measure.
It's more complete boredom with their bastardised repoitiore than political as in "Celtc's" case it is quite hard to comprehend that 140 years after mass Irish emigration to Scotland that Scottish people still feel a new to cling on to songs which for the most part are about the Wars of Irish Independence of 1916 - 1923 of 100 years ago.
The "Celtc" author explains the history but doesn't address their relevance to a sporting event in Scotland or the fact that this is now 5th/6th/7th Irish generation who just can't move on.
You actually see this at Scotland v Ireland Internationals where a reasonable number of the Irish away support are indigenous Scots which is in my eyes harmless, but weird as Fk.
Like @1875 I have no problem with what's being sung but struggle to understand the necessity on a wet Tuesday night at a football match in Dingwall etc.
It's a very enlightening series though but the author seems to be a little reluctant to explain "Celtc's" strong links to British Unionism and the British Establishment calling it instead and fleetingly the 'Labour movement'
It is absolutely everywhere within the clubs history from Sir Robert Kelly to the campaign for a Sir Jock Stein to Brian Wilson club historian and the self styled "Hammer of the Scot's" to Chairman John Reid of Iraq war infamy to Lisbon Lions Billy McNeil and Bobby Lennox strong vocal British Unionists in urging Scots to vote No.
George Galloway is another prominent "Celtic" Unionist who probably sums up many of the supporters who campaign and vote British Unionist but also know the rebel songbook backwards, forwards and inside out yet would still claim vehemently to be Irish Republicans against the hated British state.
I have never yet seen this apparent contradiction addressed by any "Celtic" writer so this would be my suggestion to the author for Part 7 as I did think by Part 5 and 6 he was beginning to struggle to find a Hibs angle.
It's a little unfair on such well researched and excellent analysis but "The Celtc Paranoia" is always bubbling under as I am struggling to remember any concerted booing of the rebel songbook at the 2013 cup final or any other cup final for that matter.
It does happen to both "Celtc" and "Scotland's Shame 2012" at Easter Road though and in equal measure.
It's more complete boredom with their bastardised repoitiore than political as in "Celtc's" case it is quite hard to comprehend that 140 years after mass Irish emigration to Scotland that Scottish people still feel a new to cling on to songs which for the most part are about the Wars of Irish Independence of 1916 - 1923 of 100 years ago.
The "Celtc" author explains the history but doesn't address their relevance to a sporting event in Scotland or the fact that this is now 5th/6th/7th Irish generation who just can't move on.
You actually see this at Scotland v Ireland Internationals where a reasonable number of the Irish away support are indigenous Scots which is in my eyes harmless, but weird as Fk.
Like @1875 I have no problem with what's being sung but struggle to understand the necessity on a wet Tuesday night at a football match in Dingwall etc.
It's a very enlightening series though but the author seems to be a little reluctant to explain "Celtc's" strong links to British Unionism and the British Establishment calling it instead and fleetingly the 'Labour movement'
It is absolutely everywhere within the clubs history from Sir Robert Kelly to the campaign for a Sir Jock Stein to Brian Wilson club historian and the self styled "Hammer of the Scot's" to Chairman John Reid of Iraq war infamy to Lisbon Lions Billy McNeil and Bobby Lennox strong vocal British Unionists in urging Scots to vote No.
George Galloway is another prominent "Celtic" Unionist who probably sums up many of the supporters who campaign and vote British Unionist but also know the rebel songbook backwards, forwards and inside out yet would still claim vehemently to be Irish Republicans against the hated British state.
I have never yet seen this apparent contradiction addressed by any "Celtic" writer so this would be my suggestion to the author for Part 7 as I did think by Part 5 and 6 he was beginning to struggle to find a Hibs angle.
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1875
LEGENDARY RADGE
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2003
Part 7 is a match report from a game at Celtc Park in the seventies which was called off with 5 minutes to go due to fog. I remember it and the replay although I didn't attend as I was still in primary school. If I was picking a game which defined many Hibs fans dislike of Celtc and their fans, it would be the day their fans threw CS gas into the Hibs end.
thecelticstar.com
There is one last part that will be released this afternoon, will be interesting to see how Liam summarises his series.
Celtic's Complicated Relationship With Hibernian - (Part 7) | The Celtic Star
Matchday looms tonight and thus this series is drawing to a close. In this penultimate article, we rewind to the 1970s for an incredible incident which angered Hibernian and helped the Celts. In all the cracking Celtic v Hibs encounters over the years, this event has largely been forgotten...
thecelticstar.com
There is one last part that will be released this afternoon, will be interesting to see how Liam summarises his series.
SlovSam
Private Member
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2003
Part 7 really is just a bit of a long winded double match report and it adds little to the debate and even making allowances for the Celtc slant there is barely any criticism of a pitch invasion by Celtc fans contributing in no small way to getting the match abandoned..
It was quite common in the 70's and 80's for Celtc fans to invade pitches at a whim with Gordon Strachan for example subject to two assaults.
Also glossed over is that the referee that day was Bobby Davidson someone that Celtc fans of the era hated with an absolute passion for his apparant bias towards "Scotland's Shame 1872" in various derby matches.
Yet here is one ref they detest to their very souls making a monumental call in their favour but its selectively ignored which for me is another example of the bubbling paranoia which is always present.
Surely the worst incident involving Hibs v Celtc though is the CS gas cannister incident from 1987 and so far we haven't heard a squak about that as the informed writer must surely know about it given the quality of his research to date.
A CS gas cannister is thrown from Celtc fans into the East Terracing with the game then held up for 20 minutes with Hibs fans many of them kids streaming onto the pitch with their eyes watering surely can't just be ignored as its a definitive moment which changed the relationship between some of the fans forever..
45 Hibs fans taken to hospital , 1 seriously injured and not even a mention as yet. "Aye Right Tonto" as that's selective omission at its finest.
To be even handed he hasn't mentioned either the Hibs v Scotland's Shame 1872" last 25 minutes kick about that deprived Celtic of the league title in true Germany v Austria World Cup fashion and caused one of the biggest (and such fun) barnies ever on here.
It would have been very interesting to see a Celtc angle on "Helicopter Sunday" and what Celtc fans thought about the carve up that helped cost them the title nearly as much as Scott MacDonald's 2 goals for Motherwell.
I have very much enjoyed the series but do think the author began to run out of material towards the end and became very selective in his memory and couldnt bring himself to address any possible criticism of his club or supporters and that was a bit dissapointing.
.It was quite common in the 70's and 80's for Celtc fans to invade pitches at a whim with Gordon Strachan for example subject to two assaults.
Also glossed over is that the referee that day was Bobby Davidson someone that Celtc fans of the era hated with an absolute passion for his apparant bias towards "Scotland's Shame 1872" in various derby matches.
Yet here is one ref they detest to their very souls making a monumental call in their favour but its selectively ignored which for me is another example of the bubbling paranoia which is always present.
Surely the worst incident involving Hibs v Celtc though is the CS gas cannister incident from 1987 and so far we haven't heard a squak about that as the informed writer must surely know about it given the quality of his research to date.
A CS gas cannister is thrown from Celtc fans into the East Terracing with the game then held up for 20 minutes with Hibs fans many of them kids streaming onto the pitch with their eyes watering surely can't just be ignored as its a definitive moment which changed the relationship between some of the fans forever.
.45 Hibs fans taken to hospital , 1 seriously injured and not even a mention as yet. "Aye Right Tonto" as that's selective omission at its finest.
To be even handed he hasn't mentioned either the Hibs v Scotland's Shame 1872" last 25 minutes kick about that deprived Celtic of the league title in true Germany v Austria World Cup fashion and caused one of the biggest (and such fun) barnies ever on here.
It would have been very interesting to see a Celtc angle on "Helicopter Sunday" and what Celtc fans thought about the carve up that helped cost them the title nearly as much as Scott MacDonald's 2 goals for Motherwell.
I have very much enjoyed the series but do think the author began to run out of material towards the end and became very selective in his memory and couldnt bring himself to address any possible criticism of his club or supporters and that was a bit dissapointing.
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- Joined
- Jun 28, 2002
I was at that game. Alex Edwards went tonto at the Smellies fans as he left the pitch.Part 7 is a match report from a game at Celtc Park in the seventies which was called off with 5 minutes to go due to fog. I remember it and the replay although I didn't attend as I was still in primary school. If I was picking a game which defined many Hibs fans dislike of Celtc and their fans, it would be the day their fans threw CS gas into the Hibs end.
Celtic's Complicated Relationship With Hibernian - (Part 7) | The Celtic Star
Matchday looms tonight and thus this series is drawing to a close. In this penultimate article, we rewind to the 1970s for an incredible incident which angered Hibernian and helped the Celts. In all the cracking Celtic v Hibs encounters over the years, this event has largely been forgotten...
There is one last part that will be released this afternoon, will be interesting to see how Liam summarises his series.
Tom Hart demanded Hibs get the win, 2-0 up with less than 5 mins to go, and most of them wasted in clearing the cheating bastard fans from the pitch.
Got knocked back on the grounds that the Smellies (despite never being in the game) could have equalised or won.
Westside Green
Private Member
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2009
Has he mentioned that some of the fans that attach themselves to Celtic are just about as bigoted as the huns?
1875
LEGENDARY RADGE
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2003
Liam’s final article, which I missed, where he covers the CS gas attack and subsequent hiding Hibs fans gave their fans after that game.
thecelticstar.com
Probably the best group of articles I have read about our mutual dislike of one another written by a Celtc fan.
If ye know your history indeed.
Celtic's Complicated Relationship With Hibernian - (Part 8) | The Celtic Star
The final article of this series, which I hope has kept you entertained through the winter break, deals with the biggest flashpoint between Celtic and Hibernian in the modern era. The 1980s was a crazy time on the terraces in British football. In Scotland, Aberdeen became the first club to have...
thecelticstar.com
Probably the best group of articles I have read about our mutual dislike of one another written by a Celtc fan.
If ye know your history indeed.
Jack
Private Member
- Joined
- Nov 11, 2007
Liam’s final article, which I missed, where he covers the CS gas attack and subsequent hiding Hibs fans gave their fans after that game.
Celtic's Complicated Relationship With Hibernian - (Part 8) | The Celtic Star
The final article of this series, which I hope has kept you entertained through the winter break, deals with the biggest flashpoint between Celtic and Hibernian in the modern era. The 1980s was a crazy time on the terraces in British football. In Scotland, Aberdeen became the first club to have...
Probably the best group of articles I have read about our mutual dislike of one another written by a Celtc fan.
If ye know your history indeed.
I was working in Bar-L the week following the CS gas attack.
The staff I was working with knew I was a Hibby and asked if I'd been at game and affected. I said I was and had been, both me and my friend were still feeling the affects some hours later in the pub
. They jokingly suggested I could pay him a wee visit as he was now a guest of theirs! Tempted but not tempted.SlovSam
Private Member
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2003
The CS gas attack is a very strange way to end the excellent 8 part series and doesnt seem to flow with parts 2 to 7 and I am slightly suspicious that he feels rather forced to include it.
Having done so though he then proceeds to do a very thorough and fair analysis and doesn't try to hide any of the detail and not for a minute tries to pretend that this was almost exclusively a Celtc crime..
One earlier tiny background detail he gets wrong from my memory of witnessing the event was that it was only one petrol bomb (rather than bombs) that the CCS threw at the Aberdeen ASC at the Princes Street/Waverley Market junction.
The Celtc casual crew (CSC) of the time have rather been written out of history but they did exist for a while until they got run out of town by the mainstream Celtc support for many reasons one of which was their fashion crime of wearing green bobble hats.
The series wouldn't have been complete without a detailed analysis of the CS gas game so fair play to the author who got there in the end and maintained his very high standards of research and analysis.
My only gripe would his summary that Celtc supporters look back on this crime with a "sense of embarrassment".
45 Hibs fans ended up in hospital so maybe a "sense of embarrasment and shame" would have been a more fitting conclusion".
Having done so though he then proceeds to do a very thorough and fair analysis and doesn't try to hide any of the detail and not for a minute tries to pretend that this was almost exclusively a Celtc crime.
.One earlier tiny background detail he gets wrong from my memory of witnessing the event was that it was only one petrol bomb (rather than bombs) that the CCS threw at the Aberdeen ASC at the Princes Street/Waverley Market junction.
The Celtc casual crew (CSC) of the time have rather been written out of history but they did exist for a while until they got run out of town by the mainstream Celtc support for many reasons one of which was their fashion crime of wearing green bobble hats.
The series wouldn't have been complete without a detailed analysis of the CS gas game so fair play to the author who got there in the end and maintained his very high standards of research and analysis.
My only gripe would his summary that Celtc supporters look back on this crime with a "sense of embarrassment".
45 Hibs fans ended up in hospital so maybe a "sense of embarrasment and shame" would have been a more fitting conclusion".
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jock3
Private Member
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2012
I am neither Irish or Catholic, but I can appreciate a club's recognition of their origins. I think where the two clubs differ is in the perpetuation of sectarian hatred. Mind you if you take a look at that lot on the other side of Glasgow you can understand a bit! The history of Ireland and Ulster is turbulent and bloody, and quite complicated.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2005
I have found this writing very enjoyable. I enjoy the bantar at football games (usually) and don't really care if it is not all historically accurate. Who really cares that Braveheart is as accurate as saying eating porridge makes you into some kind of musclebound god. I of course have read about the singing of the Lisbon lions song but I did not make out the words and if it was offensive to the death of players or something then yes that has crossed a line. I also no longer sing the Mercer song as again my levels of hatred and stupidity are not what they once were.
As to glory hunters, this is interesting. I would say historically there was less of it, yet as Liam pointed out, Hibs enjoyed a great support in the early 50's. The argument could go, where are they now? Did a lot go to support Celtic? or stop attending games? Why did their families not continue to come? The reasons could be complex but for sure, when a team thrives their support normally goes up (unless your name is Motherwell!)
I have lived in the West and there is a definite parallel to religion. I think this probably covers at least a 20 mile radius from the centre of Glasgow in all directions. In Edinburgh it is not so profound. I grew up in Pilton knowing plenty Celtic supporters who were not RC, but did not know any Protestants in the West who supported Celtic and only one RC where she was probably winding up her brothers and anyway did not attend Rangers games.
But as Liam said, a lot of Celtic supporters are simply following in their parent's footsteps. Look at areas like Dalkeith and surrounding villages. There were a huge influx of miners from the West and their grandchildren continue to follow the ugly sisters.
Again you have to think about the Cosmopolitan nature of Edinburgh. I doubt many here do not know of someone who has moved away from Edinburgh who once attended games. Their families are unlikely to travel hundreds or thousands of miles to watch Hibs (though some do) Instead they might watch a new local club or become a TV supporter of Man u or Arsenal.
Every country has its big teams and that very much likely does stem from the desire to be a world class team. And so while some fans might want to support lets say Raith Rovers, they might get more of a buzz feeling part of a huge support descending on Paris or Barcelona and so pick a team to do this with. And lets face it, look at Coatbridge with a population of around 60k attracts a few hundred supporters. Even if the sisters supporters from that area who actually attend games went to watch Rovers, they still might only attract 5k to a home game. This would have little effect on the sisters attendances and only move Rovers on to a par with Motherwell at best and unlikely to see a lot of European football. Though would make our leagues more competitive.
I would also say I was probably a glory hunter in some ways. I could cite that I had an RC great Grandad on my Mother's side and that my Father and his side were all RC. But in honesty none of that made the slightest difference to my choosing Hibs, and besides that I did not even realise the connections at the time. Nope I don't really know why I supported Hibs, but suspect it was because they had a great team in the early 70's. It might be I supported Hibs from the late 60;s but cannot remember. If I was simply looking for the team who won more trophies though, I probably should have plumped for Celtic as many of my mates did. Why i chose Hibs I have no real idea, perhaps I wanted a local club as I have never felt any affinity to Glasgow. Perhaps it was just divine providence. Whatever it was, I think we all obscure history and a few things remain that could be discussed.
1. That the Irish Celtic supporters would have found it easy to pop over to Glasgow by Ferry than to make the extended trip to Edinburgh, pre-M8.
2. That Rangers were also attracting a large support from Northern Ireland to Glasgow would feed into the local rivalry.
3. That is Hibs remained exclusively R.C. This would very likely have had a detrimental effect on our crowds by present day.
4. I read once that Edinburgh, a city of around 5.4m or less, have at any one time 100k English, due chiefly to Universities.
5. In trying to attract supporters from far and wide, would this add value to our fan base or would we become a corporate animal in the future?
Some things for the new owners to consider.
How do we tap into schools, colleges, unis?
How do we tap into the workplace fans who have given up attending games?
How do we once again make Hibs relevant to a community who no longer feel an attachment to the club
I suspect with the recent questionnaire circulating, Ron is indeed asking these questions
As to glory hunters, this is interesting. I would say historically there was less of it, yet as Liam pointed out, Hibs enjoyed a great support in the early 50's. The argument could go, where are they now? Did a lot go to support Celtic? or stop attending games? Why did their families not continue to come? The reasons could be complex but for sure, when a team thrives their support normally goes up (unless your name is Motherwell!)
I have lived in the West and there is a definite parallel to religion. I think this probably covers at least a 20 mile radius from the centre of Glasgow in all directions. In Edinburgh it is not so profound. I grew up in Pilton knowing plenty Celtic supporters who were not RC, but did not know any Protestants in the West who supported Celtic and only one RC where she was probably winding up her brothers and anyway did not attend Rangers games.
But as Liam said, a lot of Celtic supporters are simply following in their parent's footsteps. Look at areas like Dalkeith and surrounding villages. There were a huge influx of miners from the West and their grandchildren continue to follow the ugly sisters.
Again you have to think about the Cosmopolitan nature of Edinburgh. I doubt many here do not know of someone who has moved away from Edinburgh who once attended games. Their families are unlikely to travel hundreds or thousands of miles to watch Hibs (though some do) Instead they might watch a new local club or become a TV supporter of Man u or Arsenal.
Every country has its big teams and that very much likely does stem from the desire to be a world class team. And so while some fans might want to support lets say Raith Rovers, they might get more of a buzz feeling part of a huge support descending on Paris or Barcelona and so pick a team to do this with. And lets face it, look at Coatbridge with a population of around 60k attracts a few hundred supporters. Even if the sisters supporters from that area who actually attend games went to watch Rovers, they still might only attract 5k to a home game. This would have little effect on the sisters attendances and only move Rovers on to a par with Motherwell at best and unlikely to see a lot of European football. Though would make our leagues more competitive.
I would also say I was probably a glory hunter in some ways. I could cite that I had an RC great Grandad on my Mother's side and that my Father and his side were all RC. But in honesty none of that made the slightest difference to my choosing Hibs, and besides that I did not even realise the connections at the time. Nope I don't really know why I supported Hibs, but suspect it was because they had a great team in the early 70's. It might be I supported Hibs from the late 60;s but cannot remember. If I was simply looking for the team who won more trophies though, I probably should have plumped for Celtic as many of my mates did. Why i chose Hibs I have no real idea, perhaps I wanted a local club as I have never felt any affinity to Glasgow. Perhaps it was just divine providence. Whatever it was, I think we all obscure history and a few things remain that could be discussed.
1. That the Irish Celtic supporters would have found it easy to pop over to Glasgow by Ferry than to make the extended trip to Edinburgh, pre-M8.
2. That Rangers were also attracting a large support from Northern Ireland to Glasgow would feed into the local rivalry.
3. That is Hibs remained exclusively R.C. This would very likely have had a detrimental effect on our crowds by present day.
4. I read once that Edinburgh, a city of around 5.4m or less, have at any one time 100k English, due chiefly to Universities.
5. In trying to attract supporters from far and wide, would this add value to our fan base or would we become a corporate animal in the future?
Some things for the new owners to consider.
How do we tap into schools, colleges, unis?
How do we tap into the workplace fans who have given up attending games?
How do we once again make Hibs relevant to a community who no longer feel an attachment to the club
I suspect with the recent questionnaire circulating, Ron is indeed asking these questions