A complicated relationship

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moathibby

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Sorry to see we had to raise funds to feed the poor back in the 1880's as well as today.
 

1875

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Pretty much so far, so good, although no mention of the stealing of our players yet, maybe in Part 3 tomorrow.
 

1875

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Part 4, where Liam drifts into the world of player stealing, again pretty fair although no mention of the pubs Celtc supposedly gifted the Glasgow based Hibs players to entice them back, and the the classic old firm whattaboutery of Hibs doing the same thing to other wee clubs.

Best appraisal of the early days of our bastard offspring written by a Celtc man so far imo.

 

SlovSam

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There are some real gems in this material such as Celtc twice giving donations to help prop up a financially ailing Hibs evidenced with precise details that's nothing less than outstanding historical research.✅

The author's general conclusion that the original Hibs club was racked by Irish political turmoil and factional infighting and financially bankrupt due to the theft of the club funds is very accurate as is his outline description of how "backhanders" and "inducements" paved the way towards early professional football contracts.

There is a Celtc slant to his writing as you would expect but he acknowledges the huge part Hibs played in Celtics foundation I don't have a problem with any of his conclusions.

Its light years ahead of the "Celtc stole all oor players" garbage you hear from the Hibs pub bores which should have been put to bed years ago as the real story is far more complex, fascinating and interesting.👍✅.
 

1875

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Part 4 here and I think Liam really has got it, missed a few bits and bobs but I reckon he might of read the Lugtons and 100 years of Hibs, impressive as I bought and read Dundee United's centenary book but turn the page anytime I see anything about Celtc. Good. I am impressed so far, although we all need to research the tale of the pubs used as an enticement by Glass to get Glasgow based Hibs players to join the lesser greens.


Article 5 talks about where we are now, I think its fair to say, we dinnae like each other, they hate the Wisnae for the Hibees you'd be huns stuff ( I will sing it on Monday, its true and it boils their pish), maybe the song really is they'd be Hibs, but that disnae hurt as much?


I personally hate the souptakers stuff and their adopted Irishness as someone with Irish and much more importantly Scottish roots.
 
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emerald green

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Part 4 here and I think Liam really has got it, missed a few bits and bobs but I reckon he might of read the Lugtons and 100 years of Hibs, impressive as I bought and read Dundee United's centenary book but turn the page anytime I see anything about Celtc. Good. I am impressed so far, although we all need to research the tale of the pubs used as an enticement by Glass to get Glasgow based Hibs players to join the lesser greens.


Article 5 talks about where we are now, I think its fair to say, we dinnae like each other, they hate the Wisnae for the Hibees you'd be huns stuff ( I will sing it on Monday, its true and it boils their pish), maybe the song really is they'd be Hibs, but that disnae hurt as much?


I personally hate the souptakers stuff and their adopted Irishness as someone with Irish and much more importantly Scottish roots.
your on fire young man
 

Canon Hannan

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Excellent series and I see he has name checked the Bounce and is taking comments from here.
 

1875

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Excellent series and I see he has name checked the Bounce and is taking comments from here.

I am very impressed, the research is first class, Slov Sam and I are itching for that first massive faux pas. I did name check the articles on a Celtc podcast I do from a Hibs angle.
 
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Canon Hannan

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I am very impressed, the research is first class, Slav Sam and I are itching for that first massive faux pas. I did name check the articles on a Celtc podcast I do from a Hibs angle.
I’ve just added a comment about Harry Swan and his friend Monsignor Miley. Celtic fans way off with regards to Swan.
 

SlovSam

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Here is the letter we sent to "The Celtc View" all those years which to their great credit they published in full, well apart from the comparison to Jim Farry.😁

Hopefully the Celtc guy pops back to read.


Dear Sir,
‘Fly The Flag’
I refer to your article ‘Fly the Flag’ published on 14th January 2004 in relation to Harry Swan chairman of Hibernian FC and his supposed attempt to ‘eradicate all Irish references and links to the Edinburgh club’, specifically the old harp mosaic’s which adorned the main South entrance.

In fact ’The Harp’ remained in place for the first 22 years of Mr Swan’s chairmanship until ground reconstruction and deterioritation in the mid 1950’s meant the entrance had to be demolished. In its place an expensive new mosaic harp was commissioned from craftsman in Ireland and shipped over to Easter Road where it hung in the boardroom. When Harry Swan died it was gifted to his widow by the club.

Interestingly Mr Swan had also appointed his very close friend, the catholic priest Monsignor Miley as ‘players councillor’ the first and very forward looking post in Scottish football. Furthermore on the death of his advisor and fellow director Owen Brannigan who was ‘the last of the Auld Irish’, Mr Swan carried the Hibernian wreath in the form of a traditional broken harp to the Requiem Mass at St Partricks Cathedral in Edinburgh.

I would also like to point out in relation to the ‘Flag flutter’ that it was originally the Glasgow Magistrates not Mr Swan who advocated the ‘flag ban’, that it was the Referee’s Committee who upheld that decision (incidentally a committee that was chaired by Sir Robert Kelly not Mr Swan) and that it was the very dubious George Graham the secretary of the SFA (the undoubted Jim Farry or Ernie Walker of his day) who had overall responsibility for implementing the recommendations of the Glasgow Magistrates and the Referee’s Committee.

Ultimately, while I would completerly agree that the SFA adopted a very heavy handed and extremely confrontational approach to Celtic FC during the ‘Flag flutter’ of 1952 , I would suggest that to imply that Mr Swan had some heinous anti Irish and anti Celtic agenda is both unfair and highly inaccurate.

Yours faithfully,
 

SlovSam

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This one is from Mass Hibsteria fanzine around the time of the 2012 Cup Final which tends to reach much the same conclusions as this current excellent Celtc series.

For If You (Don’t) Know Your History by Slov Sam: Hibees Bounce

Celtic supporters (spelt Celtc courtesy of the ‘Green Brigade’s’ infamous 2007 visit to Easter Road where their banners spelt the clubs name wrong) often like to patronise Hibs fans with their ‘wee cousins’ comedy routine repeating their base mantra of ‘Aye bit we stole aww yir players und youse went bankrupt’ whenever the subject of Hibs/Celtc history is discussed.

As often is the case however fact is far more interesting than myth and in 19th century Scotland Hibernian FC was a very different political animal than today. This resulted in a far more complex and interesting set of reasons for the demise of the original Hibernian club rather than the very simplistic accusation of Celtc simply poaching the Hibs players through large financial inducements as football thundered towards the new professional era.

Hibs players of the time were nominally amateur with generous "allowances and expenses" many of whom actually came from the West of Scotland so its not exactly a huge surprise they were attracted back into their own communitys with the promise of professional above board contracts

Back in 1875 it had been these same ‘wee cousins’ formed a full 13 years ahead of Neil Lennon’s great grandfather serving his first touchline ban who had been the original advocates of education, food and literacy programmes for the immigrant Irish population of Scotland as well as maintaining a keen and active involvement in the unfolding Irish politics of the time.

Michael Davitt and Charles Stewart Parnell leading Irish politicians visited Easter Road to address major political gatherings and Hibs ball boy, James Connolly tragically remains the most famous of all Hibernian supporters. Celtc supporters would of course die for such illustrious Irish patriots in their formative core but instead have to make do with their modern day equivalents of Billy Connolly and Susan Boyle.

It was the Irish Home Rule struggle which dominated politics for latter part of the 19th century and was ultimately to prove become a key factor in the demise of the first Hibernian club as naturally many Hibernian members and club officials wanted to actively support this powerful political movement through boycotts and political agitation.

This brought the club members and club officials into serious conflict with Canon Hannon Hibs co-founder and the upper echelons of the Catholic Church who wanted nothing to do with political campaigning and activism. As a result numerous Hibernian committee men were forced or voluntarily resigned including Michael Flannigan the club president.

Now lacking club officials, a rapidly shrinking membership and devoid of funds due to an internal embezzlement by the club secretary then it was not surprising that Hibernian were unable to counter the monetary enticements of Celtc and their newly formed professional club structure. That is a long way from Celtc simply stealing players from their ‘wee cousins’ and it offers Hibernian a rare and unique history that is far more interesting, fascinating and complex than the one usually formulated.

Harry Swan, European visionary and the highly successful chairman of Hibernian FC (1931 to 1963) has also fallen victim to the Celtc revisionists via a very dubious article in the ‘The Celtc View’ the official Celtc club newspaper with his supposed attempt to ‘eradicate all Irish references and links to the Edinburgh club’, specifically the old harp mosaic’s which adorned the main South entrance to Easter Road.

In fact ’The Harp’ remained in place for the first 23 years of Mr Swan’s chairmanship until ground reconstruction and deterioration in the mid 1950’s meant the entrance had to be demolished. In its place an expensive new mosaic harp was commissioned from craftsman in Ireland and shipped over to Easter Road where it hung in the boardroom. When Harry Swan died it was gifted to his widow by the club.

Interestingly Mr Swan had also appointed his very close friend, the senior Catholic priest Monsignor Miley as ‘players councillor’ the first and very forward looking post in Scottish football. Furthermore on the death of his great advisor, mentor and fellow director Owen Brannigan who was ‘the last of the Auld Irish’, Mr Swan carried the Hibernian wreath in the form of a traditional broken harp to the Requiem Mass at St Patricks Church in Edinburgh’s Cowgate.

Not content with misrepresenting Hibs history, Celtc are not exactly shy when it comes to their own history as the conceived and universally recognised wisdom for the first 100 years of their existence was that Celtic were formed for the very principled reason to raise funds in order to provide food, clothing and education for the poor and destitute Catholic Irish immigrant population of the East End of Glasgow.

Fast forward to the 21st century and the era of corporate responsibility and Celtc are presently publishing on their official website a very laudable social mission statement but one which rather brazenly adds that the club were also formed ‘’So that Scottish and Irish, Protestants and Catholics alike could all have a club to support. This new football club would be a vehicle to bring all the communities of Glasgow together’.

Eye watering stuff which might have the original Celtc founder Brother Walfrid and the far more significant John Glass whirling in their graves.

Rather than merely misrepresenting history that seems to completely invent a brand new history, though one which hopefully someone has told the ‘Green Brigade’ about as this newly created social integration and all inclusive community chapter of Celtc’s early history might easily form the ideal basis for another George Square dememonstration/deminstation/demrostration if only everyone could agree with the spelling.

So enjoy the cup final but remember to take numerous of photos of James McPake with that cup because in 10 years’ time, Celtc supporters armed with airbrush and Photoshop may well have replaced our own Saint James with Hoopy the Huddle Hound.
 
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1875

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Didnae enjoy this part as much, although Liam works hard to understand the differences, I am not sure many Hibs fans see Celtc fans as glory hunters, other than those from in and around Edinburgh. He is of course correct that Queens Park were the big Glasgow club when Celtc were formed but If it wisnae for the Hibees you’d be spiders just disnae upset them much. No mention of the despicable souptakers term used by Celtic fans to refer to us though. Still an excellent effort though.

 

mike t

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Celtic and Rangers. The self entitled Bullingdon Boys of Scottish football.
 

SlovSam

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I thought he lost his way a little bit in Part 5 and used the 'Gloryhunting " tag remorseslly just as an excuse to find a way to bring his very impressive historical arguments to the table.

I didn't think it was necessary as I have never felt Hibs fans as a whole regard Celtc fans who don't support Hibs as just a bunch of "gloryhunters" as we now see Celtc very much as part of the Corporate duopoly that completely dominates Scottish football and a club we no longer have much in common with other than very old history.

I don't think he quite gets that after WW2 and Hibs success of 1950's Hibs moved away naturally from their hard core Irish roots of the 19th Century.

This was further extended by the social changes in Edinburgh as the slum areas of central Edinburgh and the Leith port area were cleared and the Hibs core support moved to the newly built estates on the outskirts of town and just assimiliated into mainstream Scottish society.

Similarly he begins to take himself just a bit to seriously when trying to analyze and disect the songs "If it wisnae for the Hibees yid be Huns" or "We were first to wear the Green"😂

It's cheery football banter with a strong basis in history used to wind up other supporters and as any Hibs fan will know it works so well but it's not meant to be seen as a definitive historical statement of actual fact.

It does hit the mark though as Celtc fans have absolutely no response and are forced to listen with teeth clenched.😂.

That's all it is though and it doesn't mean much more than "We are the greatest team the world has ever seen" does.

It's still very impressive writing and research by the Celtc guy though and how refreshing it is to see a Celtc fan approach this debate so open mindedly but I did think Part 5 was just a wee bit forced and tried to shoehorn in arguments that arent really there.
 
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