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The survey has worked on a set number of first-team players, explaining that “first-team squad sizes (in the Scottish Premiership) were so diverse last year (from 21 to 34) that, given the sums in play, there was a risk of misinterpretation. So a maximum of 26 players have been counted this time per club, selected on the basis of frequency of use, and hence ‘first-team’ status in the most meaningful sense.”
 
This is from the Herald:

Survey reveals stark financial gap between Celtic's wage budget and the rest of Scottish Premiership | HeraldScotland

The key comparison is that Celtic are closer to PSG, who they lost 13-1 to "on aggregate", than pretty much anyone in Scotland is to them. And it's a gap that's only going to increase as they continue getting Champions League football and dominating the domestic game.

The Scottish game's a bogey.

Agreed.

In any nation on earth, when you know who has won a league before that league starts....then you don't have a league.
We have no top flight league. It's a fight for second place straight from the start. This is not sustainable. Fans interest will wane very quickly...including ours.
I think Celtic will join and help create a breakaway European league along with other similar sized clubs soon and will inevitably quit the Scottish game.
 
Agreed.

In any nation on earth, when you know who has won a league before that league starts....then you don't have a league.
We have no top flight league. It's a fight for second place straight from the start. This is not sustainable. Fans interest will wane very quickly...including ours.
I think Celtic will join and help create a breakaway European league along with other similar sized clubs soon and will inevitably quit the Scottish game.

Can’t wait till they leave, which combined with a second (and final) death of The Rangers, would leave us with the most competitive league in Europe.
 
The survey has worked on a set number of first-team players, explaining that “first-team squad sizes (in the Scottish Premiership) were so diverse last year (from 21 to 34) that, given the sums in play, there was a risk of misinterpretation. So a maximum of 26 players have been counted this time per club, selected on the basis of frequency of use, and hence ‘first-team’ status in the most meaningful sense.”

Nah! The celtc squad is enormous and even player 26 in the squad probably earns more than the highest paid of the honest clubs.

There's also the fact that the actual salaries of players are never divulged so they take the annual accounts, which include everyone's salary - sometimes, and tweak from there. I suppose the only thing in their sort of favour is that the same assumptions are made for all clubs. So as inaccurate as it is as a going rate per player the overall picture is probably representative ... maybe.

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This is from the Herald:

Survey reveals stark financial gap between Celtic's wage budget and the rest of Scottish Premiership | HeraldScotland

The key comparison is that Celtic are closer to PSG, who they lost 13-1 to "on aggregate", than pretty much anyone in Scotland is to them. And it's a gap that's only going to increase as they continue getting Champions League football and dominating the domestic game.

The Scottish game's a bogey.

I don't think the Scottish game is any more bogus, huns apart, than any other league in Europe anyway ... as that's the only one I've really looked at in the past.

Look at any league in Europe and I'll bet in each one a poll on the Bounce of each top 2 would be spot on. The top 2 are very likely always going to be the top two.

That's money.

At least we've got a race for second place!
 
Nah! The celtc squad is enormous and even player 26 in the squad probably earns more than the highest paid of the honest clubs.

There's also the fact that the actual salaries of players are never divulged so they take the annual accounts, which include everyone's salary - sometimes, and tweak from there. I suppose the only thing in their sort of favour is that the same assumptions are made for all clubs. So as inaccurate as it is as a going rate per player the overall picture is probably representative ... maybe.

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I don't think the Scottish game is any more bogus, huns apart, than any other league in Europe anyway ... as that's the only one I've really looked at in the past.

Look at any league in Europe and I'll bet in each one a poll on the Bounce of each top 2 would be spot on. The top 2 are very likely always going to be the top two.

That's money.

At least we've got a race for second place!

I think you’re right, there aren’t many (any?) leagues in Europe where a dominant team or two doesn’t exist. Some leagues are tighter than others, and an outsider can come from nowhere to win it (Twente, Leicester) but those are not the norm.
 
[MENTION=1476]Greenmachine[/MENTION] and [MENTION=9931]Jack[/MENTION]

The problem I have isn’t necessarily that Celtic are certainties to win the league every year. It’s frustrating that there’s simply no way to compete with them, and they’re pulling further away every year, but you’re right to say that most leagues are in this position.

The problem I have is that they’re effectively starting to hoover up the lifeblood of the entire game.

For most people, I think a successful period for Hibs would be multiple top-six finishes over a five-year period, European football one season out of three, and a cup victory one season out of four. I accept that winning the league is out of our reach, as it is with every other club in Scotland. In general terms, I think supporters of Aberdeen and Hearts would expect something similar, and “Rangers” would expect a bit better.

Unfortunately, one of our trophies doesn’t net European football, the standard of our game is causing our coefficient to collapse, and Celtic are now so far ahead that their second string can win fixtures that save their first string for the big games. Celtic now only have to concentrate on their Scottish Cup matches because they’ve won the League Cup, and will certainly win the league with ease. If they win back to back trebles the papers will talk about how great they are, but that’ll largely cover up the problems that we have with them.

Namely, that over the last five years, fifteen major honours have been contested. Celtic have won ten of them, with no other club winning more than one, and the pace of their dominance is accelerating.

And while there’s no doubt that other leagues have similar problems (Barcelona or Real Madrid for the league, anyone?), those leagues have other measures of success; most notably in European spots, particularly the Champions League. The English Premiership, for example, has had four winners from its last five years, and gets four Champions League spots that have seen qualification from seven different teams; multiple others have been very close. And as the linked report suggests, there’s precious little financial difference between the top teams that compete, where our reality is that Celtic are simply untouchable.

Even on TV, you can get decently competitive fixtures with a range of teams seeing TV time. Scottish coverage almost exclusively covers Celtic, and whoever their whipping boys are for that day. It’s depressing.

Around Europe, teams know that if they execute their game plan and have excellent individual performances, they can beat the big boys. In Scotland, we know that if Celtic choose to turn up then there’s nothing you can do to get a result.

It’s turning Scottish football into something that’s just turning people off.
 
[MENTION=1476]Greenmachine[/MENTION] and [MENTION=9931]Jack[/MENTION]

It’s turning Scottish football into something that’s just turning people off.

How do you explain the significant increase in attendances at various clubs across the country?

Hibs, the Gunts, Aberdeen, Dunfermline, St Mirren?
 
How do you explain the significant increase in attendances at various clubs across the country?

Hibs, the Gunts, Aberdeen, Dunfermline, St Mirren?
Other averages are down.

We're pretty much where we were prior to Rangers being liquidated, with crowds largely static or within the margin of error.
 
Other averages are down.

We're pretty much where we were prior to Rangers being liquidated, with crowds largely static or within the margin of error.

Would be interesting to know the average premier league attendance for each season (excluding the bigot brothers) over the last 10 years. The raw data appears to be on wikipedia but I don't have time/can't be arsed to work it out just now.
 
Other averages are down.

We're pretty much where we were prior to Rangers being liquidated, with crowds largely static or within the margin of error.

Which averages are down?

Crowds are static at which clubs? Who is up, who is down, is there something we can see since say the season the Huns went bust?
 
[MENTION=10313]Zellviren[/MENTION]. I agree with you to an extent. It is a wee bit soul destroying that celtc are so far ahead and our national team is pish.

But even before the upturn in attendances for some clubs and I believe ours are at their highest average since the 1950s, Scotland had the highest proportion to population attending live football in Europe.

Around Europe, even with their dominant clubs, their 'minnows' do reasonably well in Europe making up the league sections before the big boys fight it out in the knockout stages.

I doubt there's been a more embarrassing time for Scottish clubs in Europe or our national team on the international front.

Aye it's depressing at that level but Hibs are doing well on and off the pitch and in the stands.

If NL hangs about I'll take your ambition for our club and raise you Europe at least every other year and at least one run in the Euro league in the next 4 years ... and a shit load of Hampden appearances :-)
 
Which averages are down?

Crowds are static at which clubs? Who is up, who is down, is there something we can see since say the season the Huns went bust?

I tend to use statbunker, as it’s a pretty clean interface that’s easy to use.

Home attendance Scottish Premiership 17/18

The problem, of course, is that it’s notoriously difficult to make any kind of assessment. We could look at season 14-15, for example, and conclude that the numbers were bad; but three of Scotland’s best four supported clubs were in the Championship. Other problems are laden with individual club problems (Hibs are a prime example – relegated, Scottish Cup win, back in the Premiership). If you want to check where attendances are really going, you need to look over each club individually… And that takes more time than I can put in today. :(

[MENTION=9931]Jack[/MENTION]

I’m with you, bud, honestly. But you’re also making one of my points for me, in that even “minnow” teams from other European leagues do well in Europe and are at least in their respective competitions post-Yuletide. We’re nowhere near that despite, as you correctly point out, being fanatical about our football. Our through-the-gate numbers are exceptional, which shows just how strong football in Scotland could be if it had a decent organisation heading it up.
 
Celtc are guaranteed to win the league every season. No better and no worse than when it was Celtc or the Huns guaranteed to win the league each season as it was before the Huns died. We are the the joint third club in Scotland but when last did we go into a season with any realistic hope of winning the league? 1974/1975?
 
Celtc are guaranteed to win the league every season. No better and no worse than when it was Celtc or the Huns guaranteed to win the league each season as it was before the Huns died. We are the the joint third club in Scotland but when last did we go into a season with any realistic hope of winning the league? 1974/1975?

That's the way I see it too.

When the Huns started greetin' about the Smellies and the 'one horse race' when they were out of the top division, they just couldn't see that it mattered not a fcuk to many fans of other clubs. Whether it was a one horse race or a two horse race was hardly a game changer to the rest of us.

I'm happy enough to see Hibs win, any game. A Cup is nice (THAT Cup was brilliant!) and a jaunt to Copenhagen or the like is excellent.

I'm quite happy to see us knocked out early doors in Euro competitions; can't afford to go to a lot of games and I'd hate to miss out!
:077:
 
Would it be if wisnae for the ****s that hate each other?
Surprisingly, yes - we wouldn't be absolute top, I don't think, but we're still pretty much there.

Take our top Edinburgh clubs, for example. Hibs (17,826) and Hearts (20,764) have an average attendance of 19,295 every week. Edinburgh's population is 507,170 which, when divided into the average number of football supporters, means that one out of every 26 people get themselves to Easter Road or Tynecastle. In north London, Arsenal (59,364) and Tottenham (70,331 at Wembley) have an average of 64,848 every match, in a city population of 8,787,892. This divides into one supporter in every 136th person.

It's a 4% in Edinburgh to 1% in London comparison.

Now, we understand that there are a HUGE number of variables in those numbers - obviously there are. But as a quick and dirty comparison, it gives you a rough idea of where we're at without bothering to use the Glasgow two. If you use the same numerology principles, it's almost 5% (rounding up from 4.5%) of weegies that go to one of the piggeries each week.

Scottish fans are fanatical.

The snag is that it's hard to drum up sponsorship or TV money when you're offering a product that amounts to "Who are Celtic Going to Beat Up Today?"

[An interesting note, not directly related, is that given the paucity of success Hibs and Hearts have had, their supports are remarkably resilient when compared to Celtic or "Rangers" (whose respective supports collapse when they're poor). This is especially true, given that most other Scottish teams draw their support much more regionally than do the evil twins.]
 
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Surprisingly, yes - we wouldn't be absolute top, I don't think, but we're still pretty much there.

Take our top Edinburgh clubs, for example. Hibs (17,826) and Hearts (20,764) have an average attendance of 19,295 every week. Edinburgh's population is 507,170 which, when divided into the average number of football supporters, means that one out of every 26 people get themselves to Easter Road or Tynecastle. In north London, Arsenal (59,364) and Tottenham (70,331 at Wembley) have an average of 64,848 every match, in a city population of 8,787,892. This divides into one supporter in every 136th person.

It's a 4% in Edinburgh to 1% in London comparison.

Now, we understand that there are a HUGE number of variables in those numbers - obviously there are. But as a quick and dirty comparison, it gives you a rough idea of where we're at without bothering to use the Glasgow two. If you use the same numerology principles, it's almost 5% (rounding up from 4.5%) of weegies that go to one of the piggeries each week.

Scottish fans are fanatical.

The snag is that it's hard to drum up sponsorship or TV money when you're offering a product that amounts to "Who are Celtic Going to Beat Up Today?"

[An interesting note, not directly related, is that given the paucity of success Hibs and Hearts have had, their supports are remarkably resilient when compared to Celtic or "Rangers" (whose respective supports collapse when they're poor). This is especially true, given that most other Scottish teams draw their support much more regionally than do the evil twins.]

I would suggest on Hibs and the Gunts, for every Edinburgh based fan that attends, there is one from either East/ West or Midlothian attending too. Would that not skew your figures a bit?
 
Surprisingly, yes - we wouldn't be absolute top, I don't think, but we're still pretty much there.

Take our top Edinburgh clubs, for example. Hibs (17,826) and Hearts (20,764) have an average attendance of 19,295 every week. Edinburgh's population is 507,170 which, when divided into the average number of football supporters, means that one out of every 26 people get themselves to Easter Road or Tynecastle. In north London, Arsenal (59,364) and Tottenham (70,331 at Wembley) have an average of 64,848 every match, in a city population of 8,787,892. This divides into one supporter in every 136th person.

It's a 4% in Edinburgh to 1% in London comparison.

Now, we understand that there are a HUGE number of variables in those numbers - obviously there are. But as a quick and dirty comparison, it gives you a rough idea of where we're at without bothering to use the Glasgow two. If you use the same numerology principles, it's almost 5% (rounding up from 4.5%) of weegies that go to one of the piggeries each week.

Scottish fans are fanatical.

The snag is that it's hard to drum up sponsorship or TV money when you're offering a product that amounts to "Who are Celtic Going to Beat Up Today?"

[An interesting note, not directly related, is that given the paucity of success Hibs and Hearts have had, their supports are remarkably resilient when compared to Celtic or "Rangers" (whose respective supports collapse when they're poor). This is especially true, given that most other Scottish teams draw their support much more regionally than do the evil twins.]

Don't think you should be using their murrayfield attendances to get an average. It's inflated hugely by visiting sheep and bigots.
 
Surprisingly, yes - we wouldn't be absolute top, I don't think, but we're still pretty much there.

Take our top Edinburgh clubs, for example. Hibs (17,826) and Hearts (20,764) have an average attendance of 19,295 every week. Edinburgh's population is 507,170 which, when divided into the average number of football supporters, means that one out of every 26 people get themselves to Easter Road or Tynecastle. In north London, Arsenal (59,364) and Tottenham (70,331 at Wembley) have an average of 64,848 every match, in a city population of 8,787,892. This divides into one supporter in every 136th person.

It's a 4% in Edinburgh to 1% in London comparison.

Now, we understand that there are a HUGE number of variables in those numbers - obviously there are. But as a quick and dirty comparison, it gives you a rough idea of where we're at without bothering to use the Glasgow two. If you use the same numerology principles, it's almost 5% (rounding up from 4.5%) of weegies that go to one of the piggeries each week.

Scottish fans are fanatical.

The snag is that it's hard to drum up sponsorship or TV money when you're offering a product that amounts to "Who are Celtic Going to Beat Up Today?"

[An interesting note, not directly related, is that given the paucity of success Hibs and Hearts have had, their supports are remarkably resilient when compared to Celtic or "Rangers" (whose respective supports collapse when they're poor). This is especially true, given that most other Scottish teams draw their support much more regionally than do the evil twins.]

It's difficult to give much credence to your comparison if you use London and only use 2 of it's many clubs to calculate your figures. Manchester on the other hand has 2 big clubs with an average attendance of 64,126 against a population of around 2.55M. Their per capita attendance is 1 in 39.76 which still makes your point but is easier to compare. All in my humble opinion of course :thumbgrin

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Don't think you should be using their murrayfield attendances to get an average. It's inflated hugely by visiting sheep and bigots.

Fair point from the blue fella.
 
Surprisingly, yes - we wouldn't be absolute top, I don't think, but we're still pretty much there.

Take our top Edinburgh clubs, for example. Hibs (17,826) and Hearts (20,764) have an average attendance of 19,295 every week. Edinburgh's population is 507,170 which, when divided into the average number of football supporters, means that one out of every 26 people get themselves to Easter Road or Tynecastle. In north London, Arsenal (59,364) and Tottenham (70,331 at Wembley) have an average of 64,848 every match, in a city population of 8,787,892. This divides into one supporter in every 136th person.

It's a 4% in Edinburgh to 1% in London comparison.

Now, we understand that there are a HUGE number of variables in those numbers - obviously there are. But as a quick and dirty comparison, it gives you a rough idea of where we're at without bothering to use the Glasgow two. If you use the same numerology principles, it's almost 5% (rounding up from 4.5%) of weegies that go to one of the piggeries each week.

Scottish fans are fanatical.

The snag is that it's hard to drum up sponsorship or TV money when you're offering a product that amounts to "Who are Celtic Going to Beat Up Today?"

[An interesting note, not directly related, is that given the paucity of success Hibs and Hearts have had, their supports are remarkably resilient when compared to Celtic or "Rangers" (whose respective supports collapse when they're poor). This is especially true, given that most other Scottish teams draw their support much more regionally than do the evil twins.]

You’d need to use the population of North London for that to work, or include Chelsea, West Ham, Crystal Palace, QPR, Brentford & Charlton.
 
You’d need to use the population of North London for that to work, or include Chelsea, West Ham, Crystal Palace, QPR, Brentford & Charlton.

And our old foes Millwall along with Fulham and the 3-5000 home games of FC Wimbledon.
 
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You ask any fan and they'll want Celtic and Rangers gone. Ask them and they want out also.

Imagine how pish it must be being a Celtic fan. Apart from Europe they have nothing to enjoy. Can't tell me they get the same feeling other fans get when winning a trophy.
 
The Scottish game's a bogey.

Only if you hold that winning the league is important. If you put that to the side, the rest of the league is actually quite competitive. Every team is taking points off each other.

It must be quite unfulfilling being a Celtc supporter. What enjoyment is there in something so predictable ? How do you get passionate about something as humdrum as winning the title for the umpteenth time ? Don't you just shrug your shoulder and go "ho hum" ?
 
You ask any fan and they'll want Celtic and Rangers gone. Ask them and they want out also.

Imagine how pish it must be being a Celtic fan. Apart from Europe they have nothing to enjoy. Can't tell me they get the same feeling other fans get when winning a trophy.

Only if you hold that winning the league is important. If you put that to the side, the rest of the league is actually quite competitive. Every team is taking points off each other.

It must be quite unfulfilling being a Celtc supporter. What enjoyment is there in something so predictable ? How do you get passionate about something as humdrum as winning the title for the umpteenth time ? Don't you just shrug your shoulder and go "ho hum" ?

I have Thellick supporting pals who enjoy victory just as much as the rest of us.
 
Guys, guys, guys – I KNOW the comparative numbers I posted could be off for any number of good, valid reasons that you’ve posted. There were merely put there as a very quick example of just how well Scottish support stands up, considering how poor the standard and pricing is. You could very easily get more accurate numbers by making the amendments you suggest. :)

It must be quite unfulfilling being a Celtc supporter.
After losing to them 3-0 in the Scottish Cup final, my sister candidly remarked:

“Losing to Hearts was worse, but at least it mattered to them”.

Rarely has a more lucid point been made on the subject.