UKIP Given A Place On The Leaders' Debates For UK GE

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Smurf

Smurf

Private Member
Joined
May 15, 2003
Shameful decision. Why not likewise for Greens with one MP?

Nats will rightly feel aggrieved too of course...
 
It's events like this that make me doubt the idea of the SNP making much dent in the number of Labour seats returned from Scotland.
 
Smurf said:
Shameful decision. Why not likewise for Greens with one MP?

Nats will rightly feel aggrieved too of course...
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UKIP have much bigger support Tbf, although not one they can properly leverage under FPTP.

Greens are much smaller, in the next tier with libdems etc.
 
egb_hibs said:
UKIP have much bigger support Tbf, although not one they can properly leverage under FPTP.

Greens are much smaller, in the next tier with libdems etc.
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Based on what though? Opinion polls?
 
I'm on record (as it were - hold the presses etc) not buying this BBC bias thing, but jeez they're an odd lot. Obsessed by UKIP in the same way that certain kinds of people are obsessed by Kim Kardashian. Profess not to like her but can't stop talking about her.

Shouldn't they have a sort of 'tier two' debate with everybody who isn't Lib/Lab/Con (plus LibLabCon obv)? Or maybe two of them?
 
Ukip have more support and more members than libdem. Not sure why Libs belong in any first tier that ukip don't ?

And I'm not sure why the beeb should have a role perpetuating a status quo that's already hard enough to break
 
If Ukip are being invited, how come the SNP are not? Given they are now officially the UK's 3rd largest political party.
IF Ukip get any sort of power at the GE, I will be offski tbh. It is something I am already thinking about, this would seal it!
 
egb_hibs said:
Ukip have more support and more members than libdem. Not sure why Libs belong in any first tier that ukip don't ?
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History? Status as a party of government? Number of MPs?

And I'm not sure why the beeb should have a role perpetuating a status quo that's already hard enough to break
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They have a duty to reflect it to a certain extent. Nobody except CallmeDave or Beaker will be PM, so like it or not they need to feature prominently. But maybe just them and then two debates with everyone. Fuck it, get the SSP and the SWP in there as well. Have a proper bunfight.
 
SNP is tricky. Again ukip are much bigger party at UK level, because snp only operate in Scotland. But as the natural party of government in one of UKs constituent countries, with its own parliament, I think they should be included. You can see how they'll get out of it though, by citing scale at UK level.

The real reasoning here is that ukip will split the right and weaken the tories, whereas snp threaten labour. One main role of the bbc is to help labour attain power. That said they may have misread this and ukip will hurt labour badly, but even then it's going to be neutral oversll given damage to the Tories,

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HenryLB said:
History? Status as a party of government? Number of MPs?



They have a duty to reflect it to a certain extent. Nobody except CallmeDave or Beaker will be PM, so like it or not they need to feature prominently. But maybe just them and then two debates with everyone. $#@! it, get the SSP and the SWP in there as well. Have a proper bunfight.
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There's too much reliance on ancient history H. You are of course correct that if there is to be any kind of tiering, then tories and labour are in a different universe than anyone else.

However, after that ukip comes next, and clearly that duopoly isn't an eternal position. Would labour have displaced the liberals has the bbc had the power then which it does now? After all it's existence has turned labour, and incresdingly the Tories, into liberal parties...
 
egb_hibs said:
After all it's existence has turned labour, and incresdingly the Tories, into liberal parties...
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Not sure that's true. Or at least there have been other factors. Will and Grace for example.

I'm joking a bit, but I think people have got more 'liberal' in attitude for reasons other than the BBC telling them to do so.
 
egb_hibs said:
Yes and recent elections, ie by elections and euro elections.
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It should be based on the existing representation in the House of Commons. And it should be based on whoever is a serious player to become Prime Minister. There are other debates for fringe parties and their leaders.

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Is banned said:
If Ukip are being invited, how come the SNP are not? Given they are now officially the UK's 3rd largest political party.
IF Ukip get any sort of power at the GE, I will be offski tbh. It is something I am already thinking about, this would seal it!
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It is ridiculous that UKIP have been invited. They like the Greens have only one MP. However, these Leaders debates are essentially for those parties standing to govern the UK. Therefore, I don't see why the SNP should be invited. There is however a compelling argument that if other fringe parties are invited to any debate on the basis that they may be involved in potential coalition talks then the SNP should be top of the list.
 
Smurf said:
It should be based on the existing representation in the House of Commons. And it should be based on whoever is a serious player to become Prime Minister. There are other debates for fringe parties and their leaders.

It is ridiculous that UKIP have been invited. They like the Greens have only one MP. However, these Leaders debates are essentially for those parties standing to govern the UK. Therefore, I don't see why the SNP should be invited. There is however a compelling argument that if other fringe parties are invited to any debate on the basis that they may be involved in potential coalition talks then the SNP should be top of the list.
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Farage should not be part of any TV debate, simple.

A strong SNP showing in Scotland could destroy any hope the red tories have of getting into power at Westminster. Of course Labliar don't want the SNP in any televised debate, they will lose, they know that, they witnessed it only a couple of months ago.

I do agree on the potential for coalition, although I suspect the SNP know they cannot work with the original tories, they might be able to work with the red ones, given teh leanings of many of the SNP's new members? The biggest fear has to be for a BlueTory/ UKIP Coalition, possibly backed by the Ulster Unionists?
 
[TABLE="class: commonsoverviewtable"]
[TR]
[TD]Party:

Conservative
[/TD]
[TD]Seats:

303
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: alternate"]Labour[/TD]
[TD="class: alternate"]257[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Liberal Democrat[/TD]
[TD]56[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: alternate"]Democratic Unionist[/TD]
[TD="class: alternate"]8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Scottish National[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: alternate"]Sinn Fein[/TD]
[TD="class: alternate"]5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Independent[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: alternate"]Plaid Cymru[/TD]
[TD="class: alternate"]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Social Democratic & Labour Party[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: alternate"]Alliance[/TD]
[TD="class: alternate"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Green[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: alternate"]Respect[/TD]
[TD="class: alternate"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Speaker[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: alternate"]UK Independence Party[/TD]
[TD="class: alternate"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vacant[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

UKIP should be a fair ways back on the list, but nope the BBC (and other media outlets) just seem to love them.

Farage is already trying to cut deals with the Tories, we will support you in government in return for an EU membership referendum.

Look at the damage getting into bed with the Tories did to the Lib Dems especially up here in Scotland, based on that alone UKIP should have bugger all chance up here but I doubt very much the BBC will be pointing this out to anyone.
 
1875 said:
Farage should not be part of any TV debate, simple.

A strong SNP showing in Scotland could destroy any hope the red tories have of getting into power at Westminster. Of course Labliar don't want the SNP in any televised debate, they will lose, they know that, they witnessed it only a couple of months ago.

I do agree on the potential for coalition, although I suspect the SNP know they cannot work with the original tories, they might be able to work with the red ones, given teh leanings of many of the SNP's new members? The biggest fear has to be for a BlueTory/ UKIP Coalition, possibly backed by the Ulster Unionists?
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I agree wholeheartedly on Farage. He has just got his first MP. The way the BBC has promoted him at every opportunity is ridiculous. He's on BBC Question Time almost every month. What other political party leader with such few elected folk has been given such a platform? Well Patrick Harvie of the Scottish Greens the one exception...

The Ed Miliband strategy was a core 35% to get elected. SNP on the rise has fucked that. He really is hopeless.
 
While it isn't to the same extent as the Lib Dems perhaps there has been a hell of a lot of "teaming up against the evil Nats" going on with Labour and the Tories.

From their pally nature during the Independence referendum to the likes of Stirling Council where the two have joined forces to keep the SNP councillors (and Green councillor) out of control.

Of course anyone willing to look knows that "New Labour" has been Red Tory all along but these obvious alliances on specific issues and at council level must give at least some people in Scotland pause for thought if they aren't one of the few Tory voters.
 
No harm in having multiple leaders at the debate - i'm all for farage being there as long as he's not given preferential treatment over others

The argument that there should only be potential prime ministers is (for me) nonsensical. people don't vote for the PM - the vote for an MP to represent their interests at Wastemonster. People have a right to hear (on live TV) them articulate their position and debate that with the other parties. Sure it may be complex to do for the broadcasters but they are not the ones who should be in control of our democracy. I'm told the recent Swedish election had live debates between 8 party leaders, clearly it can be done.
 
HenryLB said:
I'm on record (as it were - hold the presses etc) not buying this BBC bias thing, but jeez they're an odd lot. Obsessed by UKIP in the same way that certain kinds of people are obsessed by Kim Kardashian. Profess not to like her but can't stop talking about her.

Shouldn't they have a sort of 'tier two' debate with everybody who isn't Lib/Lab/Con (plus LibLabCon obv)? Or maybe two of them?
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What do you mean you are not buying BBC bias? It's not an idea, it's a fact.
 
Smurf said:
I agree wholeheartedly on Farage. He has just got his first MP. The way the BBC has promoted him at every opportunity is ridiculous. He's on BBC Question Time almost every month. What other political party leader with such few elected folk has been given such a platform? Well Patrick Harvie of the Scottish Greens the one exception...

The Ed Miliband strategy was a core 35% to get elected. SNP on the rise has $#@!ed that. He really is hopeless.
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The Sun(English version) have trumpeted Farages inclusion as a "good thing", even to the extent of suggesting him being the 'next Prime minister' ...

THE SUN SAYS

TV Showdown

Leadership debates on tv energise voters and provide a compelling insight into those vying to be Prime Minister.

So we're all in favour of them being held next year as they were in 2010.
We believe they should be limited to the three main parties.

The Tories, Labour, and UKIP.

There's not much Lib Dem leader, Nick Clegg, could say that viewers would believe. And current polls show his party to be an irrelevance.
If they survive annihilation next may it will be down to UKIPs rise among Tory and Labour voters back-handing them a few marginals.

We'd love Cameron, Milliband and Farage to battle it out on live tv and we hope they all agree to it.

It might just persuade an apathetic electorate disenchanted with politicians to turn out on polling day.

that has to be a good thing.
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Gunnerhibby said:
The Sun(English version) have trumpeted Farages inclusion as a "good thing", even to the extent of suggesting him being the 'next Prime minister' ...

THE SUN SAYS

TV Showdown

Leadership debates on tv energise voters and provide a compelling insight into those vying to be Prime Minister.

So we're all in favour of them being held next year as they were in 2010.
We believe they should be limited to the three main parties.

The Tories, Labour, and UKIP.

There's not much Lib Dem leader, Nick Clegg, could say that viewers would believe. And current polls show his party to be an irrelevance.
If they survive annihilation next may it will be down to UKIPs rise among Tory and Labour voters back-handing them a few marginals.

We'd love Cameron, Milliband and Farage to battle it out on live tv and we hope they all agree to it.

It might just persuade an apathetic electorate disenchanted with politicians to turn out on polling day.

that has to be a good thing.
-----------------------------------------------------------
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They are entitled to their opinions. The Sun in England*has a mainly working class readership. And their readership votes in the main Tory, Labour and UKIP. They only ever say what will have their readership nodding their head in agreement. Laughable the suggestion Farage could become PM!
 
Smurf said:
They are entitled to their opinions. The Sun in England*has a mainly working class readership. And their readership votes in the main Tory, Labour and UKIP. They only ever say what will have their readership nodding their head in agreement. Laughable the suggestion Farage could become PM!
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He could be deputy
 
southfieldhibby said:
No chance SNP, their demands would be too high for either red or blue to accept.

Tory/DUP/UKIP coalition is my bet.
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And UKIP's wouldn't?!!

I honestly can't see how that coalition is possible. If UKIP are winning seats then it's almost inconceivable that this isn't at the loss of Tory seats. And as in 2010 the Tories didn't win enough seats to form their own government I can't see how the sums would add up to get a majority.

If the Tories win the most seats but don't win enough to get a majority then there's every chance they'll go for minority government confident they'd win another election forced in the autumn...

My money is on a Labour minority government. Labour to win the most seats but the Tories to win the most votes. EVEL will become very interesting in that scenario...
 
Smurf said:
And UKIP's wouldn't?!!

I honestly can't see how that coalition is possible. If UKIP are winning seats then it's almost inconceivable that this isn't at the loss of Tory seats. And as in 2010 the Tories didn't win enough seats to form their own government I can't see how the sums would add up to get a majority.

If the Tories win the most seats but don't win enough to get a majority then there's every chance they'll go for minority government confident they'd win another election forced in the autumn...

My money is on a Labour minority government. Labour to win the most seats but the Tories to win the most votes. EVEL will become very interesting in that scenario...
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Didn't we just see UKIP winning votes not at the expense of the tories? You said yourself, libdem voters went labour, labour voters went ukip,tories stayed tories.UKIP want a referendum on europe, they'll only get one with the tories.
 
southfieldhibby said:
Didn't we just see UKIP winning votes not at the expense of the tories? You said yourself, libdem voters went labour, labour voters went ukip,tories stayed tories.UKIP want a referendum on europe, they'll only get one with the tories.
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Mark in the seat Labour nearly lost to UKIP the Labour vote in terms of percentage held up from 2010.

UKIP are a threat to Labour as working class voters are rightly pissed off with them. However, UKIP take more votes of the Tory party. All the experts now appear to agree that around 70% of UKIP votes come from Tories?
 
HenryLB said:
Not sure that's true. Or at least there have been other factors. Will and Grace for example.

I'm joking a bit, but I think people have got more 'liberal' in attitude for reasons other than the BBC telling them to do so.
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Maybe Henry, although the objective evidence is that voters are deserting both parties in droves. The whole thing is a little self fulfilling as the bbc plays a large part in forming our impressions of people's attitudes, as well as influencing those attitudes.

They are clearly not the only factor, but a significant one. They certainly have greater clout than the 'Murdoch empire' which gives the apparatchiki the vapours for similar reasons.

How public opinion changes is a worthy topic in itself, but for another day.
 
egb_hibs said:
Maybe Henry, although the objective evidence is that voters are deserting both parties in droves. The whole thing is a little self fulfilling as the bbc plays a large part in forming our impressions of people's attitudes, as well as influencing those attitudes.

They are clearly not the only factor, but a significant one. They certainly have greater clout than the 'Murdoch empire' which gives the apparatchiki the vapours for similar reasons.

How public opinion changes is a worthy topic in itself, but for another day.
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Martin is correct here Imho obviously and Natch;)
 
Gunnerhibby said:
that's the scary and more reality version

that or Boris, once he makes his play
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There's a scarier option than that. Boris as Tory PM and Farage as his second in command is way scarier than either one or other being in power. Smurf assured me weeks ago that there was no chance of that happening though :kos:

If it does happen we really will be bitter together.
 
HenryLB said:
I'm prepared to be persuaded if you can give me a solid example.
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How about this latest example?
Wings Over Scotland | In poker we call this a rubdown

"BBC invites Scottish party leaders to general election debate"

Main headline picture shows Tory, Labour and Lib Dem Scotland branch leaders.

As one astute person in the comments points out:
"The leaders of the main Holyrood parties are Alex Salmond, Patrick Harvie, David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg."

The bias was there from day 1.
[video=youtube_share;_TZpu51A_GU]http://youtu.be/_TZpu51A_GU[/video]
 
I'm not sure why, this is very warm genuine man. He's also very bright and without an axe to grind. He's a delight and reeks so strongly of integrity it's amazing. The battering and anxiety provoked from the state broadcaster was palpable. I greatly admire him.
 
It's untrue that I don't accept his findings. I just don't think they scream the kind of bias that you lot are convinced you're on the end of. And I'm sorry Kev, I tried to watch your thing but I struggle with an hour of telly at the best of times.

Amusingly I remember a cowshed discussion about the BBC back in the day with only me and EGB suggesting it wasn't that great. Bit different now!
 
HenryLB said:
It's untrue that I don't accept his findings. I just don't think they scream the kind of bias that you lot are convinced you're on the end of. And I'm sorry Kev, I tried to watch your thing but I struggle with an hour of telly at the best of times. Amusingly I remember a cowshed discussion about the BBC back in the day with only me and EGB suggesting it wasn't that great. Bit different now!
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So you do accept his findings then? That the BBC weren't fair and impartial and that their reporting of the referendum campaign was biased towards one side?
 
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