TRUMP IS A See you next Tuesday

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egb_hibs said:
His Greenland moves are outrageous but fuck all we can do about it when we have all the military chops of a wet lettuce.
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How many 'chops' required to make him think twice? And chopped to the max Britain would still do fuck all.
 
aggie said:
Totally understandable then.
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You can see the dilemma - do you let your family be collateral damage or do you spare them that but sully the process? It shows yet again that many of the supposed bulwarks of the US system appear to be little more that gentlemans agreements. I mean effectively selling pardons without apparent threat? Nobody thinks that what the pardon system was for, but where are the protections to stop it being abused.
 
Bangkokhibby said:
How many 'chops' required to make him think twice? And chopped to the max Britain would still do fuck all.
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Militarily, but look at what Canada is doing in relation to China around tariffs. Trump may well force countries into relationships of necessity.
 
Politician helps their family and friends shock Archie. The pardoning of folk over there is maybe the equivalent of getting put on the honours list over here.
 
EH17 Jimmy said:
Politician helps their family and friends shock Archie. The pardoning of folk over there is maybe the equivalent of getting put on the honours list over here.
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I can't agree Jimmy. Biden did what he did because he knew the full weight of the justice system would be thrown at them. For ordinary people this would be emotionally devastating and financially ruinous. And he was right. I don't see it as the same as the honours system here. There was the cash for honours scandal under Blair, but no charges were brought. But that was about seats in the House of Lords - a legislative chamber. Most honours are actually to people who have actually given something. I don't mean the knighthoods, but the awards for charitable and other works. That's a good thing surely?
 
I've no problem with workers recieving plaudits for their work or folk doing charitable work. My sister got an award at Buckingham Palace for her work she done yonks ago.

Politicians shouldn't get anything as a reward because they have been well looked after.

Biden set a standard though did he not by pardoning his family? And if folk accepted that he was justified in what he done then they can't wail when someone they hate does the same.
 
Bangkokhibby said:
How many 'chops' required to make him think twice? And chopped to the max Britain would still do fuck all.
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Trump's given rationale is that Denmark cannot defend Greenland, which is becoming increasingly strategic important, from the Russians or Chinese. By extension nor can Europe defend Denmark and Greenland from them or from him.

Now he has other motives as well, no doubt, but his given rationale is in itself true.

If Europe was militarily capable, this argument would be sunk. While, as you imply, he would have military superiority anyway, he would also be looking at a Ukraine style quagmire to take Greenland from Europe.

I think engaging in such a war with Europe simply to pockle resources - ie without the defence rationale - would be too hard a sell even for him.

At the end of the day, who knows, but at minimum Europe's neglect of its responsibilities has given him a pretext.
 
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egb_hibs said:
Trump's given rationale is that Denmark cannot defend Greenland, which is becoming increasingly strategic important, from the Russians or Chinese. By extension nor can Europe defend Denmark and Greenland from them or from him.

Now he has other motives as well, no doubt, but his given rationale is in itself true.

If Europe was militarily capable, this argument would be sunk. While, as you imply, he would have military superiority anyway, he would also be looking at a Ukraine style quagmire to take Greenland from Europe.

I think engaging in such a war with Europe simply to pockle resources - ie without the defence rationale - would be too hard a sell even for him.

At the end of the day, who knows, but at minimum Europe's neglect of its responsibilities has given him a pretext.
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So your "we" in the wet lettuce analogy is Europe? Not Britain.
 
EH17 Jimmy said:
I've no problem with workers recieving plaudits for their work or folk doing charitable work. My sister got an award at Buckingham Palace for her work she done yonks ago.

Politicians shouldn't get anything as a reward because they have been well looked after.

Biden set a standard though did he not by pardoning his family? And if folk accepted that he was justified in what he done then they can't wail when someone they hate does the same.
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It certainly gives the Trump supporters an angle. He was doing it to protect family members who were just ordinary people. He knew Trump would weaponise the Justice department against them and he was right. Trump appears to be doing it for money, favours and rewarding associates.

For me the issue is less about Trump's venality but rather a system that allows him to do it. Clinton made some dodgy pardons, but not at the industrial scale of Trump.

The other issue is that the independence of the Department of Justice and FBI has been compromised. You don't need to have preemptive pardons in a normally functioning system. I know Trump apologists will say 'what about his prosecutions'. If they really think it's the same thing they are beyond help.

Finally, I agree with you about politicians awarding themselves gongs. I'd add civil servants to that. And of course replace the House of Lords!
 
Bangkokhibby said:
So your "we" in the wet lettuce analogy is Europe? Not Britain.
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Both. All the major European powers have failed in this regard, resulting in collective failure. The point applies at both levels, but yes the kind of collective capability the Americans are urging Europe to build, would be required to stand against America, Russia or China.

Britain needs to do it's bit within Europe, but also stand on its own two feet. All kinds of things are possible. For example a reawakened Germany might decide it is European leader against the US on one hand and China / Russia on the other. What then, if we have not got our own shit together?

And if that seems unlikely, a few short years ago people thought the Russian threat was over, never mind a threat from the US not being a consideration. The latter is understandable, the former always daft, but defence needs to be equipped for all scenarios. We have neglected our own - as US administrations have been telling us since the 1960s, together with the warning it wouldn't go on forever.
 
Ps @Bangkokhibby consider Israel. Some of our more eccentric colleagues believe that wily Jews control American decisions. A more prosaic reality is that it is militarily capable, ready and willing.

America thus doesn't have to worry about protecting Saudi Arabia and it's interests in the region, it can simply give support to Israel. Israel is taken seriously because it is serious. We aren't because we are not.
 
Archie said:
A sober assessment of the Greenland issue:

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"We share to some extent his concerns. There is definitely a new security situation in the Arctic and the high north.”

So what do they propose to do about it, never mind the threat Trump is himself now posing?

Sober is not the same as inaction until it's too late, which is the European way.

Trump's actions appear pretty clearly to be driven by an intent to be regional hegemon in the western hemisphere, and to control it's security but also very much it's resources.

So Greenland's thawing loot is clearly a priority but also Chinese and Russian designs on the same. It is also an important location for dominance of war in space (oh, mankind) which is one of the main front lines - cyber warfare being another - in terms of contemporary military planning.

It's ironic that those most loudly horrified by Trump's imperial designs are often also least willing to counter them. One assumes that you are not among this number Archie, but Europe's leaders don't seem to share your resolve.

Lenin's timeless question stands, as it always does: what is to be done?

Europe's strategy appears to be to hang on and hope for normality to return. I think that is misguided.
 
Archie said:
It certainly gives the Trump supporters an angle. He was doing it to protect family members who were just ordinary people. He knew Trump would weaponise the Justice department against them and he was right. Trump appears to be doing it for money, favours and rewarding associates.

For me the issue is less about Trump's venality but rather a system that allows him to do it. Clinton made some dodgy pardons, but not at the industrial scale of Trump.

The other issue is that the independence of the Department of Justice and FBI has been compromised. You don't need to have preemptive pardons in a normally functioning system. I know Trump apologists will say 'what about his prosecutions'. If they really think it's the same thing they are beyond help.

Finally, I agree with you about politicians awarding themselves gongs. I'd add civil servants to that. And of course replace the House of Lords!
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The same old tune Archie. Delete or minimise the original weaponisation of agencies, dress it up with a rhetorical bow that casts aspersions on more even handed assessments, and job done: reality replaced by a more pleasing narrative once again.

Back on planet earth, Trump has indeed upped the ante, but those agencies have not yet intervened to help him win an election. His mobilisation of lawfare meanwhile, is not so much something a prescient Biden foresaw and wisely responded to, but the inevitable response to Biden's regime instigating it against Trump.

It also long predates Biden as an approach, and all of this is born of deep resentments at harassment that is now being (sadly, if predictably) avenged. Here is discussion of the regime targeting dissidents back in 2013.

egb_hibs

Post in thread 'Watergate 2?'

Gareth I was referring to the IRS harassment of individuals and groups associated with conservatism and / or dissent against Obama regime. This includes documents leaked to obamas campaign team used to attack Romneys team, audits of dissenters, blocking of charitable status for conservative groups

I should have been more specific as it has the expected low level of coverage from our own MSM, but here is a been report i found - sorry its a mobile link

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-22549339

Of all the political weapons being deployed by Trump, I am not aware of one that was not wielded first by the Democrats, he has escalated rather than originated. The naked financial corruption is more novel.

The rot in America goes deep, and it's foundation stones are cultural warring the Democrats initiated and blind partisanship that has too many people interested in scoring points for their 'side' along with obfuscating it's own role. Some of us are more interested in that rot in and of itself, and the corrosive influences behind it. Alas, we are clearly losing to tribalism. Losing in the UK too.
 
The ducks opinion that paracetamol is bad for you has been blown out the water by people who know what they’re talking about . Trump really is a massive liberty 🛎️ end of a man 🤡
 
joethehibby said:
The ducks opinion that paracetamol is bad for you has been blown out the water by people who know what they’re talking about . Trump really is a massive liberty 🛎️ end of a man 🤡
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He knows how to keep himself on the front pages Joe.
 
egb_hibs said:
Trump's given rationale is that Denmark cannot defend Greenland, which is becoming increasingly strategic important, from the Russians or Chinese. By extension nor can Europe defend Denmark and Greenland from them or from him.

Now he has other motives as well, no doubt, but his given rationale is in itself true.

If Europe was militarily capable, this argument would be sunk. While, as you imply, he would have military superiority anyway, he would also be looking at a Ukraine style quagmire to take Greenland from Europe.

I think engaging in such a war with Europe simply to pockle resources - ie without the defence rationale - would be too hard a sell even for him.

At the end of the day, who knows, but at minimum Europe's neglect of its responsibilities has given him a pretext.
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The Americans have an agreement with Denmark and Greenland to be able to do whatever they want militarily in Greenland. They used to have several bases there and I think about 20,000 troops but withdrew, as did the Danes, as the Arctic was downgraded as a low military zone. They can still rely on this agreement but are using defence as a pretext for an imperial land grab. I really don't think you can legitimately batter Europe on this one. For me it is the desperate actions of a soon to be be lame duck President trying to carve out a place in history.
 
baggageandfibs said:
The Americans have an agreement with Denmark and Greenland to be able to do whatever they want militarily in Greenland. They used to have several bases there and I think about 20,000 troops but withdrew, as did the Danes, as the Arctic was downgraded as a low military zone. They can still rely on this agreement but are using defence as a pretext for an imperial land grab. I really don't think you can legitimately batter Europe on this one. For me it is the desperate actions of a soon to be be lame duck President trying to carve out a place in history.
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The fact is, as is being demonstrated before our eyes, international law is a polite fiction maintained by the militarily capable while it suits them: and no further.

Alone among world centres of power, this seems to have escaped Europe's attention. Which of course is because it suited us, as we lived high on the hog at the expense of the US taxpayer.

Europe is absolutely to blame for it's impotence. I agree that Trump's motives are not simply about his pretext of security, he wants the US to control the western hemisphere. But that's beside the point when it comes to Europe's culpabliity: we have left ourselves at the mercy of everyone else, whatever their whims may be.

Lame duck or not, if Trump takes or buys Greenland, it is unlikely that successors will give it back. It's also very unlikely that the toothpaste goes back in the tube on the US calling time on European freeloading. Trump has done the dirty work there but they have been warning us since the Kennedy era.

Ps I should really say western Europe. Central and eastern Europe are not nearly so starry eyed, but they are also didn't have the money historically (though these days some are on the road to being more prosperous than us)
 
Europe is not impotent though. Taking Greenland would backfire spectacularly on the US economy and no doubt necessitate their ejection from bases in mainland Europe (UK will sit on the fence no doubt). Of course we would all suffer but Europe still has cards to play.
 
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baggageandfibs said:
The Americans have an agreement with Denmark and Greenland to be able to do whatever they want militarily in Greenland. They used to have several bases there and I think about 20,000 troops but withdrew, as did the Danes, as the Arctic was downgraded as a low military zone. They can still rely on this agreement but are using defence as a pretext for an imperial land grab. I really don't think you can legitimately batter Europe on this one. For me it is the desperate actions of a soon to be be lame duck President trying to carve out a place in history.
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Denmark is part of NATO which covers Greenland. There is an extant military deal with the US that pretty much allows the US to do what it wants. It's not a military objective.

Everything is in the framing: 'Greenland is a security issue' - ignores everything in place to address that; Venezuela is a drugs issue - except it isn't; 'Renee Good hospitalised the ICE agent' - except she didn't; 'the boats we are sinking are trafficking drugs' - no evidence provided and the first set of survivors were repatriated - maybe why the second set were executed.

And so it goes on. Does anyone really believe anything the US Government says now? Anyone? Really?
 
baggageandfibs said:
Europe is not impotent though. Taking Greenland would backfire spectacularly on the US economy and no doubt necessitate their ejection from bases in mainland Europe (UK will sit on the fence no doubt). Of course we would all suffer but Europe still has cards to play.
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But it would shatter NATO - who benefits from that?
 
baggageandfibs said:
Europe is not impotent though. Taking Greenland would backfire spectacularly on the US economy and no doubt necessitate their ejection from bases in mainland Europe (UK will sit on the fence no doubt). Of course we would all suffer but Europe still has cards to play.
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I doubt we will be ejecting the US military while we have the defensive capability of a troop of brownies. Not least as they may decide they don't want to go.
 
Archie said:
But it would shatter NATO - who benefits from that?
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It would be the US that does that. Stealing Greenland de facto would result in the end of NATO. It would also surely result in the ejection of US military infrastructure. At least that’s what all the talking heads I’ve seen suggest
 
The US doesn't need Europe as Europe needs the US and people need to wake up to that.

We have spent decades eroding the civilisational bonds that linked us to the US more than it is bound to other regions. We are rapidly declining in economic significance and irrelevant militarily.

This year will mark 15 years since Obama announced the US was pivoting away from a sclerotic Europe and towards Asia. In its own way, the Trump regime represents continuity with this. America, under both Republican and Democratic presidents has warned us time and again that they wouldn't be funding our granny flat forever.

A fortress America will do just fine without Europe and NATO. Bar some spats over balances of trade and points of global convergence - like literal geographical convergence - in the polar region, it needn't often even cross paths with China, Russia, India and other places that matter. Each can sit in their corner with little dispute around borders and spheres of influence: America most of all, as the Russians, Chinese and Indians still sit close to each other. This is a return of historical norms. Only the US made it different for a while and it threw it all away through globalisation and the progressive war on itself.

If this sounds frightening, it's because it is frightening, or should be. But we won't take it seriously. And as before, the people who rage loudest about Trump are apt to take it least seriously of all.

We will be stuck raging about fat orange ogres instead of understanding what they are doing, waiting in hope for normal service to resume, or engaging in conspiracy theories about Trumpski being a KGB asset, which apart from anything else is completely irrelevant.

The bonds between the US and Europe are substantially gone. We are of fading relevance as a power. The US is no longer capable of policing the world against comparable powers and does not want to. They aren't assisting Putin they are pursuing their own interests, and despite of our endlessly inflated view of ourselves, we just aren't that important. If we continue to replace ourselves we will become an active liability and they may in due course drop us entirely.

While there may be some moderation of positions under a successor government, genies are unlikely to go back in bottles, and at any rate we can't rely on it. Europe needs to take its destiny in its own hands or cross our fingers and hope for the best.
 
egb_hibs said:
The US doesn't need Europe as Europe needs the US and people need to wake up to that.

We have spent decades eroding the civilisational bonds that linked us to the US more than it is bound to other regions. We are rapidly declining in economic significance and irrelevant militarily.

This year will mark 15 years since Obama announced the US was pivoting away from a sclerotic Europe and towards Asia. In its own way, the Trump regime represents continuity with this. America, under both Republican and Democratic presidents has warned us time and again that they wouldn't be funding our granny flat forever.

A fortress America will do just fine without Europe and NATO. Bar some spats over balances of trade and points of global convergence - like literal geographical convergence - in the polar region, it needn't often even cross paths with China, Russia, India and other places that matter. Each can sit in their corner with little dispute around borders and spheres of influence: America most of all, as the Russians, Chinese and Indians still sit close to each other. This is a return of historical norms. Only the US made it different for a while and it threw it all away through globalisation and the progressive war on itself.

If this sounds frightening, it's because it is frightening, or should be. But we won't take it seriously. And as before, the people who rage loudest about Trump are apt to take it least seriously of all.

We will be stuck raging about fat orange ogres instead of understanding what they are doing, waiting in hope for normal service to resume, or engaging in conspiracy theories about Trumpski being a KGB asset, which apart from anything else is completely irrelevant.

The bonds between the US and Europe are substantially gone. We are of fading relevance as a power. The US is no longer capable of policing the world against comparable powers and does not want to. They aren't assisting Putin they are pursuing their own interests, and despite of our endlessly inflated view of ourselves, we just aren't that important. If we continue to replace ourselves we will become an active liability and they may in due course drop us entirely.

While there may be some moderation of positions under a successor government, genies are unlikely to go back in bottles, and at any rate we can't rely on it. Europe needs to take its destiny in its own hands or cross our fingers and hope for the best.
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I think you underestimate the financial repercussions for the US if this were to happen. The EU and perhaps others would liquidate US treasuries and tank the dollar. High chance this would result in the end of the dollars role as global reserve currency. Would be catastrophic for the US economy
 
Separated out from all the verbiage, can anyone answer this question:

Why would America care about Europe as it now is, more than any other distant and random corner of the globe?
 
baggageandfibs said:
I think you underestimate the financial repercussions for the US if this were to happen. The EU and perhaps others would liquidate US treasuries and tank the dollar. High chance this would result in the end of the dollars role as global reserve currency. Would be catastrophic for the US economy
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And where would that leave Europe, if we could pull it off as you describe?

The US would pick themselves up, and take the gains. Some in the Trump regime actively do not want to be the global reserve currency as it pumps their labour force. They are pursuing autarky it seems to me, and have the resources and scale to do it, once they have dominion over the western hemisphere.

Europe meanwhile, would be on its own. And in somewhat of a tight spot, wouldn't you say?

Russia would become free to go on manoeuveres, Turkey also. Power relations with the Arab world would flip as former Caliphate territories would become defenceless and with huge friendly populations already within their borders.

It would be a laugh a minute old chap.
 
egb_hibs said:
And where would that leave Europe, if we could pull it off as you describe?

The US would pick themselves up, and take the gains. Some in the Trump regime actively do not want to be the global reserve currency as it pumps their labour force. They are pursuing autarky it seems to me, and have the resources and scale to do it, once they have dominion over the western hemisphere.

Europe meanwhile, would be on its own. And in somewhat of a tight spot, wouldn't you say?

Russia would become free to go on manoeuveres, Turkey also. Power relations with the Arab world would flip as former Caliphate territories would become defenceless and with huge friendly populations already within their borders.

It would be a laugh a minute old chap.
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It would be total chaos, undoubtedly. I have no idea how it would pan out, none of us do. Alliances are changing in real time though, Canada just signed a new trade deal with China, I suspect that would be the direction of travel.

Yes, some in the US would ditch the reserve currency but it confers huge financial benefits overall. Even then I’m sure they would prefer gradual change over a sudden shock to the markets.
 
baggageandfibs said:
It would be total chaos, undoubtedly. I have no idea how it would pan out, none of us do. Alliances are changing in real time though, Canada just signed a new trade deal with China, I suspect that would be the direction of travel.
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Signing a trade deal with China would do what? China and India already have europe bent over. Theyre about to break ground on a super embassy / colonial outpost which the spooks fret means they can intercept much of our comms. We wouldn't allow that if we werent already a bitch.

If Europe would rather be Chinese or Russian vassals, I'm not sure it's much of a step forward, and cheap electric cars aren't protecting out borders anyway.

baggageandfibs said:
Yes, some in the US would ditch the reserve currency but it confers huge financial benefits overall. Even then I’m sure they would prefer gradual change over a sudden shock to the markets.
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No doubt. Though that would also suit the shock troops intent on reinventing the world.

But the long and short of it is it would hurt an economically stagnant and militarily defenceless Europe waaaaay more.

Surely you agree with the principle that Europe should be more self sufficient?
 
egb_hibs said:
Signing a trade deal with China would do what? China and India already have europe bent over. Theyre about to break ground on a super embassy / colonial outpost which the spooks fret means they can intercept much of our comms. We wouldn't allow that if we werent already a bitch.

If Europe would rather be Chinese or Russian vassals, I'm not sure it's much of a step forward, and cheap electric cars aren't protecting out borders anyway.


No doubt. Though that would also suit the shock troops intent on reinventing the world.

But the long and short of it is it would hurt an economically stagnant and militarily defenceless Europe waaaaay more.

Surely you agree with the principle that Europe should be more self sufficient?
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Yes, it would be mutually assured destruction of the economic kind. I am a socialist and would rather we spent on welfare and wellbeing than weapons. Do I think Europe should be more self-suficient? Honestly? I don't know. Globalisation is problematic, undoubtedly, but trade is also the greatest conduit to peace known to man, so I'm not sure isolationist responses are the answer. I don't adhere to to an overarching grand narrative that informs my position on this, just trying to make sense of what seems to me like some very dangerous manoeuvres that would not have happened under another President.
 
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