TRUMP IS A See you next Tuesday

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One thing we haven't much referenced is just how bad Maduro's mob were. The situation is fraught with danger but no wonder the people are delighted.

Tens of thousands of death squad murders - often from racism or targeting the poor, imprisonment, torture, disappearances, suppression of freedoms and the press, a quarter of the population fled. Venezuela really was a real deal socialist dystopia under Maduro.

Let's hope it works out for them. And i also wonder what we would do if the same happened in, say, Austria.
 
egb_hibs said:
I'm not sure that's the idea. I suspect the idea is they all sit in their patch and leave each other alone. Whether that works out is another matter.

Well quite. The far right were raging about this in advance so its only going to turn up the heat.
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'far right' blah blah blah :coffee1:

seriously though I think the America First side of MAGA arent nazis they're generally anti-war Christian nationalists and Rand Paul libertarians and some of their critique of neo-liberalism and corruption in politics is bang on - they have their looneys but I'd be more wary of the tech right and the country-club republicans,,,,
 
Archie said:
Imagine an SNP candidate got elected then said that they thought independence was a terrible idea. They wouldn't be following the party line
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The party line being 'don't speak the quiet part out loud'?
 
gun ainm said:
'far right' blah blah blah :coffee1:

seriously though I think the America First side of MAGA arent nazis they're generally anti-war Christian nationalists and Rand Paul libertarians and some of their critique of neo-liberalism and corruption in politics is bang on - they have their looneys but I'd be more wary of the tech right and the country-club republicans,,,,
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Sorry but I think Candace Owens, Nick Fuentes, increasingly Tucker Carlson, are far right goons.

Tbh I'd kind of forgotten about the libertarians. They seem somewhat outmoded by events and especially events on the right. To the extent they exist id have thought a very high overlap with the tech bros you worry about?
 
egb_hibs said:
One thing we haven't much referenced is just how bad Maduro's mob were. The situation is fraught with danger but no wonder the people are delighted.

Tens of thousands of death squad murders - often from racism or targeting the poor, imprisonment, torture, disappearances, suppression of freedoms and the press, a quarter of the population fled. Venezuela really was a real deal socialist dystopia under Maduro.

Let's hope it works out for them. And i also wonder what we would do if the same happened in, say, Austria.
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Amnesty sums it up pretty well - even if you might frown upon their inclusion of some liberal convictions - like I said no tears lost. there are plenty other countries with really bad governments mind you. If there's a moral case against Maduro thats one thing but i'm not convened its that relevant to what happened today
Protests following the announcement of the results of the presidential election in July were violently repressed with excessive use of force and possible extrajudicial executions. Thousands of arbitrary arrests were carried out against political opponents, human rights defenders and journalists; hundreds of children were among those detained. Detainees including women and children were allegedly tortured. Detention conditions continued to deteriorate. Impunity prevailed for human rights violations. The ICC authorized the resumption of the investigation into alleged crimes against humanity. Journalists remained at risk of arbitrary detention and harassment and the government continued its attempts to obstruct independent media. Human rights NGOs were threatened with closure and human rights defenders remained at significant risk. By the end of the year more than 7.89 million Venezuelans had fled the country. Oil spills at El Palito refinery in Carabobo state severely impacted marine fauna. High levels of poverty persisted and people lacked access to adequate food, water and healthcare. Violence against women persisted and abortion remained criminalized. There was no progress in ensuring the rights of LGBTI people. Illegal mining and violence threatened Indigenous Peoples’ rights in the Orinoco Mining Arc area. OHCHR staff were expelled from the country. The mandate of the UN Fact-Finding Mission on Venezuela was renewed.
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gun ainm said:
Amnesty sums it up pretty well - even if you might frown upon their inclusion of some liberal convictions - like I said no tears lost. there are plenty other countries with really bad governments mind you. If there's a moral case against Maduro thats one thing but i'm not convened its that relevant to what happened today
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I expect its lots of things R. But I think we perhaps agree that first among them is America showing its teeth.
 
egb_hibs said:
Sorry but I think Candace Owens, Nick Fuentes, increasingly Tucker Carlson, are far right goons.

Tbh I'd kind of forgotten about the libertarians. They seem somewhat outmoded by events and especially events on the right. To the extent they exist id have thought a very high overlap with the tech bros you worry about
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Feuntes has fallen out with Carlson - appreciate its hard to keep up.

the libertarians havent gone away - I'd say Joe Rogan is fundamentally of that ilk and Dave Smith (another prominent podcaster) practically worships Ron Paul 9who is now more of a behind the scenes guy but still very influential. iirc pols show ~ 20% of americans (and growing) hold socially liberal, economically conservative views (which equates to libertarian tradition in US) - theres plenty to agree with (and disagree with) in there - but its worth pointing out that i think the christian nationalists and the libertarians are buddies and may well become the dominant coalition within republican circles
 
Fuentes is all in on the weird incel culture and yeah a bit of an odd guy.......

Rogan is now just a conspiracy theorist type, anti everything that the last person he had on is spaffing on about. But the whole Rogansphere and alternative types in the US are really pushing Christianity, well the type that accepts Russel Brand types. Good money in that there evangelical "christianity".
 
egb_hibs said:
An old forum fave. There was once a time when some held a candle for la revolucion. Others were more sceptical
:coffee1:
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at the start there was genuine hope, you'd likely argue this end was inevitable perhaps but something needed to be done about the country pre-chavez - it was basically run by privileged elites with the majority in poverty and indigenous people effectively excluded - a fuck you approach to running a country. There were not deep roots in the early reforms and the price of oil tanking and american sanctions didnt help him either. ultimately the economy of the country has always been fucked up, Chavez for all his failures at least tried - i hope for the people's sake that whatever comes next finds a sustainable model that brings greater prosperity to the people of that country - its been an elusive goal for much of South America for generations. The opposition is likely as corrupt, incompetent, bankrupt, out of touch and free of ideas or vision as Maduro - I doubt Trump is going to focus on anything other that creating a different kind of nightmare
 
gun ainm said:
Feuntes has fallen out with Carlson - appreciate its hard to keep up.

the libertarians havent gone away - I'd say Joe Rogan is fundamentally of that ilk and Dave Smith (another prominent podcaster) practically worships Ron Paul 9who is now more of a behind the scenes guy but still very influential. iirc pols show ~ 20% of americans (and growing) hold socially liberal, economically conservative views (which equates to libertarian tradition in US) - theres plenty to agree with (and disagree with) in there - but its worth pointing out that i think the christian nationalists and the libertarians are buddies and may well become the dominant coalition within republican circles
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I have a fundamental objection to this Christian Nationalism business.

You can be a Christian and a patriot, indeed I'd argue everyone should be patriotic. You can probably also be a Christian and a nationalist though its a bit of a needle to thread: maximal nationalism is idolatry.

But Christianity cannot be nationalist and it cannot be a proxy for race which i fear some are trying to make it, just as their mirrors have done with Islam.

I dont really follow Joe Rogan so can't comment but libertarianism seems bound to globalism as far as I can see, and that's a busted flush. Perhaps the Yanks think they can avoid that given their continental scale, but they've historically been the champions of mass migration etc.

I struggle to see how a coalition between these two groups, at least as I understand them, is tenable. Sounds like incompatible groups flung together by a common enemy. Thats happened before but its not stable.
 
Strategically the correct decision. Swinney has condemned but who cares what that no mark thinks.
 
egb_hibs said:
But Christianity cannot be nationalist and it cannot be a proxy for race which i fear some are trying to make it, just as their mirrors have done with Islam.
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i wonder - having watched a fair amount of carlson, owens, kirk, smith etc i dont think this is about race other than their perception (right or wrong ) that white people have been discriminated against via DEI, Carlson in particular is at pains to call out racism regularly. You might be right though it could all be an act
egb_hibs said:
I dont really follow Joe Rogan so can't comment but libertarianism seems bound to globalism as far as I can see, and that's a busted flush. Perhaps the Yanks think they can avoid that given their continental scale, but they've historically been the champions of mass migration etc.

I struggle to see how a coalition between these two groups, at least as I understand them, is tenable. Sounds like incompatible groups flung together by a common enemy. Thats happened before but its not stable.
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i dont think thats the case (tied to globalism) but i'd have to do more reading on it quick google suggests Paul 'advocates for a coherent and fair legal immigration system with the same rules and waiting periods for all countries, while opposing proposals that would drastically increase the total number of legal immigrants.' and greater border security/enforcement etc
 
gun ainm said:
i wonder - having watched a fair amount of carlson, owens, kirk, smith etc i dont think this is about race other than their perception (right or wrong ) that white people have been discriminated against via DEI, Carlson in particular is at pains to call out racism regularly. You might be right though it could all be an act
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Well I think everyone bar those behind it are worried about woke racism including DEI, and rightly so. But Owens and Fuentes are full of nazi bs and Carlson is walking a very fine line.

1000009976.jpg

I think Kirk was a very different animal and there is a school of thought that his his death has empowered the bams on either side who weren't interested in his approach of trying to reach across the divide. Owens was once his sidekick but is now busy trampling on his grave, while Fuentes was his bitter foe.

Not sure who Smith is? Who is that ?

gun ainm said:
i dont think thats the case (tied to globalism) but i'd have to do more reading on it quick google suggests Paul 'advocates for a coherent and fair legal immigration system with the same rules and waiting periods for all countries, while opposing proposals that would drastically increase the total number of legal immigrants.' and greater border security/enforcement etc
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You may well be right. Im thinking of right wing sorts from Ayn Rand to the Koch Brothers.

That said i suppose those really wedded to globalism will have shifted to the Democrats long ago.

Edit - but then again. These guys are whst comes to mind in terms of libertarian think thank stuff, and lo...


Open borders is a (capitalist) extreme right position, which has made its adoption on the left so strange, which in turn has been central to the merger of the centre left and global capitalism to create the establishment order of our time.
 
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gun ainm said:
at the start there was genuine hope, you'd likely argue this end was inevitable perhaps but something needed to be done about the country pre-chavez - it was basically run by privileged elites with the majority in poverty and indigenous people effectively excluded - a fuck you approach to running a country. There were not deep roots in the early reforms and the price of oil tanking and american sanctions didnt help him either. ultimately the economy of the country has always been fucked up, Chavez for all his failures at least tried - i hope for the people's sake that whatever comes next finds a sustainable model that brings greater prosperity to the people of that country - its been an elusive goal for much of South America for generations. The opposition is likely as corrupt, incompetent, bankrupt, out of touch and free of ideas or vision as Maduro - I doubt Trump is going to focus on anything other that creating a different kind of nightmare
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Sure. But socialism of the full on sort is always much worse than anything it responds to, and there really isn't an excuse for not knowing that by now.

While Maduro may be worse, Chavez is responsible for turning Venezuela into an oppressive authoritarian and hyper violent state. It always happens because it must happen - the formula guarantees it.
 
This is quite something

"We're going to have our very large United States oil companies, the biggest anywhere in the world, go in, spend billions of dollars, fix the badly broken infrastructure, the oil infrastructure, and start making money for the country."

"Under our new national security strategy, American dominance in the Western Hemisphere will never be questioned again."

"not anymore, all the way back dated to the Monroe Doctrine and the Monroe Doctrine is a big deal, but we've superseded by a lot by a real lot. They now call it the Donroe document. I don't know, it's, Monroe Doctrine. We sort of forgot about it. It was very important, but we forgot about it. We don't forget about it anymore."

"We're going to run the country until such time as we can do a safe, proper and judicious transition."

I don't even think this is for America it's for the political donors, fuck knows what happens if when the Venezuelans start fighting back, how the fuck do they run the country in those circumstances
,
 
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gun ainm said:
This is quite something

"We're going to have our very large United States oil companies, the biggest anywhere in the world, go in, spend billions of dollars, fix the badly broken infrastructure, the oil infrastructure, and start making money for the country."

"Under our new national security strategy, American dominance in the Western Hemisphere will never be questioned again."

"not anymore, all the way back dated to the Monroe Doctrine and the Monroe Doctrine is a big deal, but we've superseded by a lot by a real lot. They now call it the Donroe document. I don't know, it's, Monroe Doctrine. We sort of forgot about it. It was very important, but we forgot about it. We don't forget about it anymore."

"We're going to run the country until such time as we can do a safe, proper and judicious transition."

I don't even think this is for America it's for the political donors, fuck knows what happens if when the Venezuelans start fighting back, how the fuck do they run the country in those circumstances
,
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It is wild indeed, but im not sure on the last bit. People tend to assume 'oil wars' are about lining pockets but I think they are about power and security before they are about that.

We have seen what an effective weapon of war control over oil and gas has been during the Ukraine war. Other resources from advanced semi conductor manufacturing to water may in time fall into the same bracket.

I don't doubt that folk will get rich but there are much easier ways to do that. China and Russia are big into Venezuelan oil and I think that's more likely to be a factor here.

Ironically by apparently playing up to / trolling people's view of oil wars I suspect the Donald is glossing motives as much as being candid about them.
 
Ps the Monroe doctrine reference seems to point right at the regional hegemons thesis.

As I've noted many times, a lot of people wanted america out of things that weren't their business and it looks like they are going to get their wish.
 
egb_hibs said:
It is wild indeed, but im not sure on the last bit. People tend to assume 'oil wars' are about lining pockets but I think they are about power and security before they are about that.

We have seen what an effective weapon of war control over oil and gas has been during the Ukraine war. Other resources from advanced semi conductor manufacturing to water may in time fall into the same bracket.

I don't doubt that folk will get rich but there are much easier ways to do that. China and Russia are big into Venezuelan oil and I think that's more likely to be a factor here.

Ironically by apparently playing up to / trolling people's view of oil wars I suspect the Donald is glossing motives as much as being candid about them.
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power and security for whom? I sincerely doubt the average American will be better off (nor the average Venezuelan for that matter either)
 
egb_hibs said:
Ps the Monroe doctrine reference seems to point right at the regional hegemons thesis.

As I've noted many times, a lot of people wanted america out of things that weren't their business and it looks like they are going to get their wish.
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Donroe now god knows if it'll be coherent

many of those people were in central and south america - No hay suerte, hijos de puta
 
gun ainm said:
power and security for whom? I sincerely doubt the average American will be better off (nor the average Venezuelan for that matter either)
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For the US as a whole. Look at the hit the entire UK population and all businesses and government institutions have taken due to energy costs. There are arguments that the entire economic decline of the West including the vast offshoring that is certaintly part of it, can be traced backs to opec shenanigans in the early 70s. Before my time and I don't have an opinion, but the fact it's a thesis goes to the point.

Russias ability to fight the Ukraine war is entirely intertwined with oil and gas. Control over resources is probably the oldest and most prevalent cause of war throughout history.
 
hibbybilly said:
Why would anybody think we were involved? We know your a Trump arse licking cvnt and theres nae way the fat orange rapist even thought tae involve any other cvnt far less the UK.
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It's just about deflection to say something but say fuck all.
 
Smurf said:
It's just about deflection to say something but say fuck all.
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I like you would like to see a PM lead not react but I think the wider point here is Starmer is reflecting the reality of the situation on the ground at the moment - we are a near vassal state of the US - for various reasons but not least their likely retreat to the western hemisphere we need to cast off our dependency. I'm not sure any current UK or Scottish politician is recognising that - its a major problem
 
Now I've no dog in this fight!

But since when can you just rock up in a country...and kidnap the President?
With absolutely no Judicial process.

Imagine Russia did that with Zelensky.

Not the first time US has done it either.


No coincidence that Venezuela have the largest resource of oil around too.
No Federal Bank.
Usarry is banned.
Banned sex changes
Banned pornography
banned abortion
And several other coincidences.

Plus it really puts a boot into China.

This is 100% not about drugs!
 
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gun ainm said:
This is quite something

"We're going to have our very large United States oil companies, the biggest anywhere in the world, go in, spend billions of dollars, fix the badly broken infrastructure, the oil infrastructure, and start making money for the country."

"Under our new national security strategy, American dominance in the Western Hemisphere will never be questioned again."

"not anymore, all the way back dated to the Monroe Doctrine and the Monroe Doctrine is a big deal, but we've superseded by a lot by a real lot. They now call it the Donroe document. I don't know, it's, Monroe Doctrine. We sort of forgot about it. It was very important, but we forgot about it. We don't forget about it anymore."

"We're going to run the country until such time as we can do a safe, proper and judicious transition."

I don't even think this is for America it's for the political donors, fuck knows what happens if when the Venezuelans start fighting back, how the fuck do they run the country in those circumstances
,
Click to expand...
19884.png
 
Ryan69 said:
Now I've no dog in this fight!

But since when can you just rock up in a country...and kidnap the President?
With absolutely no Judicial process.

Imagine Russia did that with Zelensky.

Not the first time US has done it either.


No coincidence that Venezuela have the largest resource of oil around too.
No Federal Bank.
Usarry is banned.
Banned sex changes
Banned pornography
banned abortion
And several other coincidences.

Plus it really puts a boot into China.

This is 100% not about drugs!
Click to expand...
Well Russia has tried to assassinate Zelensky many times.
 
Archie said:
Well Russia has tried to assassinate Zelensky many times.
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If Russia wanted to assassinate the head puppet...he would be long gone.

Where's your evidence on this?

Zelensky is rarely in Ukraine for a start.
 
Ryan69 said:
If Russia wanted to assassinate the head puppet...he would be long gone.

Where's your evidence on this?

Zelensky is rarely in Ukraine for a start.
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www.independent.co.uk

Airstrikes and sleeper agents: how Putin has repeatedly tried to killed Zelensky

Ukrainian President has reportedly survived dozens of assassination attempts - Kyiv’s security service says they have foiled at least three
www.independent.co.uk www.independent.co.uk


www.bbc.co.uk

Russian plot to kill Zelensky foiled, Kyiv says

Two Ukrainian security officials are held over a Russian plot to assassinate the president, Ukraine says.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk


I look forward to you reciprocating on the evidence front.
 
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Columbia will be next.
 
Beagle said:
Greenland will be relieved.
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No for long, its winter there, they widnae be able tae find the President on account of he will still have his winter coat on. Wait till summer, Columbia's first.;))
 
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