Smith vs Corbyn

[Kenny]

if you had to pick one...

 

[Greenmachine]

Neither are leaders or potential Prime Ministers in a million years...I'm afraid that if Owen Smith is the best that the Labour Party can offer to challenge the unelectable Jeremy Corbyn then we are seeing a once great political party in it's death throes.

 

[Kenny]

Neither are leaders or potential Prime Ministers in a million years...I'm afraid that if Owen Smith is the best that the Labour Party can offer to challenge the unelectable Jeremy Corbyn then we are seeing a once great political party in it's death throes.

Hate turning thing round to indy but if the only way to defeat the tories at westminister is to pander to tory voters in england then the games a bogey.

I used to think politically scotland and england weren't that different.

I don't think scotland is as socialist as it claims to be but by the same token i now thing england is more right wing than it claims to be.

Either way i think the gap is widening, describing JC as unelectable pretty much sums that up...JC could win seats in scotland if he led scottish labour.

 

[GORDONSMITH7]

Neither are leaders or potential Prime Ministers in a million years...I'm afraid that if Owen Smith is the best that the Labour Party can offer to challenge the unelectable Jeremy Corbyn then we are seeing a once great political party in it's death throes.

I take that you use empirical evidence or are you just repeating what has been said literally thousands upon thousands of times from day one of his election by the Establishment, Tory press, BBC, ITV, right wing Labour MP's, so called soft left Labour MP's,The Guardian, Independent, Kinnock, Broon, Blair, Mandelson, Lord Pishstains, The New Statesman (!), Labourlist etc. If so you are in braw company. Repeat, ad infinitival.......unelectable, unelectable, unelectable, unelectable, you are getting sleepy......zzzz.

BIG G

 

[Brainwrong]

I take that you use empirical evidence or are you just repeating what has been said literally thousands upon thousands of times from day one of his election by the Establishment, Tory press, BBC, ITV, right wing Labour MP's, so called soft left Labour MP's,The Guardian, Independent, Kinnock, Broon, Blair, Mandelson, Lord Pishstains, The New Statesman (!), Labourlist etc. If so you are in braw company. Repeat, ad infinitival.......unelectable, unelectable, unelectable, unelectable, you are getting sleepy......zzzz.

BIG G

Man who got elected ‘definitely unelectable’

 

[Brainwrong]

Fair amount of turbulence.

 

[Kenny]

the brother of ben elton vs the brother of ben kenobi looking at those pictures

Fair amount of turbulence.

 

[GORDONSMITH7]

the brother of ben elton vs the brother of ben kenobi looking at those pictures

Jesus wept, as bad as the posh boys wheeze Private Eye's photo caption comparing Nicola Sturgeon and Wee Jimmy Krankie with the red hats on.

BIG G

 

[Kenny]

Jesus wept, as bad as the posh boys wheeze Private Eye's photo caption comparing Nicola Sturgeon and Wee Jimmy Krankie with the red hats on.

BIG G

never read private eye.

 

[GORDONSMITH7]

never read private eye.

Here we go......

BIG G

 

[Kenny]

Here we go......

BIG G

thanks - there is some humour in that... bit like harry hills one liners on you've been framed.

 

[GORDONSMITH7]

thanks - there is some humour in that... bit like harry hills one liners on you've been framed.

I've never watched You've been framed.

BIG G

 

[egb_hibs]

Fair amount of turbulence.

K, the next general election will not be contested only by middle class university students, and banalities such as this will impress few.

 

[Brainwrong]

K, the next general election will not be contested only by middle class university students, and banalities such as this will impress few.

True but, an enjoyable comparison and a shallow level. It lays out their principles pretty clearly.

I'd like Corbyn to up his game, in the sense that he needs to kick some erchie. But, I cannae see anyone doing it to be honest. We're fucked. Right wing fucked.


Fair amount of turbulence.

 

[egb_hibs]

I take that you use empirical evidence or are you just repeating what has been said literally thousands upon thousands of times from day one of his election by the Establishment, Tory press, BBC, ITV, right wing Labour MP's, so called soft left Labour MP's,The Guardian, Independent, Kinnock, Broon, Blair, Mandelson, Lord Pishstains, The New Statesman (!), Labourlist etc. If so you are in braw company. Repeat, ad infinitival.......unelectable, unelectable, unelectable, unelectable, you are getting sleepy......zzzz.

BIG G

He's possibly going on 'worst ever' views / ratings of Corbyn on the part of the public as opposed to labour activists, historically bad mid term electoral performance etc.

Despite all that I'm with you in not seeing corbs as as unelectable as others do - he is profiting from the same discontent that powered or powers Trump, sanders, Le pen, Syriza etc. However, the people that do believe he is a lost cause - and who are more likely than not to be correct - have plenty to go on.

Why is it that those on the the further left always seem to believe that those with a different opinion are being manipulated? Why do you believe 'the people' are such helpless losers? And if people are so easily persuaded, then why is it so consistently difficult for the left to persuade them?

A small knot of believers convinced everyone else would agree with them with if only they weren't manipulated by devious others - it's doesn't sound particularly grounded in sanity does it? It's also a mentality that has produced so much disaster over the years.

 

[jock3]

See Owen Smith got a vote! Must be a Bouncer!

 

[egb_hibs]

True but, an enjoyable comparison and a shallow level. It lays out their principles pretty clearly.

I'd like Corbyn to up his game, in the sense that he needs to kick some erchie. But, I cannae see anyone doing it to be honest. We're $#@!ed. Right wing $#@!ed.


Fair amount of turbulence.

No it doesn't. Corbs has no problem associating with forces and ideologies responsible for terrible violence and persecution. He's nor so much the peacenik this graphic suggests as opposed to western military action and capability.

What would Corbyn upping his game look like? Right now he looks part of the problem. As for being right wing fucked we're still recovering from the fucking we got from the - In some cases wildly - left wing last labour government, and we will be for years and years to come!

 

[Smurf]

I genuinely laugh when I hear Corbyn supporters deny all the available evidence that he hasn't got a hope in hell's chance of winning a GE. His polling is worse than any opposition leader ever and that's a fact. I think the supporters he has are not in the slightest concerned though. That's not their objective.

 

[gun ainm]

I genuinely laugh when I hear Corbyn supporters deny all the available evidence that he hasn't got a hope in hell's chance of winning a GE. His polling is worse than any opposition leader ever and that's a fact. I think the supporters he has are not in the slightest concerned though. That's not their objective.

I genuinely laugh when i hear the labour right think that they stand a chance in a GE if only they change leader, particularly after being instrumental in dragging the party to a new low in the public consciousness by making y'all look like a bunch of squabbling bitches

 

[GORDONSMITH7]

Oi, amigos egb and Smurf, surprised you didnae get a Bounce column in this report.....


Journalistic Representations of Jeremy Corbyn in the British Press


http://www.lse.ac.uk/media@lse/research/Mainstream-Media-Representations-of-Jeremy-Corbyn.aspx

http://www.lse.ac.uk/media@lse/research/pdf/JeremyCorbyn/Cobyn-Report-FINAL.pdf

Christ this only covered the first couple of months after his election last year. I would like to see data during the height of the Blairite chicken coup and also the disgracefully biased BBC and Sky News.

BIG G

 

[egb_hibs]

Oi, amigos egb and Smurf, surprised you didnae get a Bounce column in this report.....


Journalistic Representations of Jeremy Corbyn in the British Press


http://www.lse.ac.uk/media@lse/research/Mainstream-Media-Representations-of-Jeremy-Corbyn.aspx

http://www.lse.ac.uk/media@lse/research/pdf/JeremyCorbyn/Cobyn-Report-FINAL.pdf

Christ this only covered the first couple of months after his election last year. I would like to see data during the height of the Blairite chicken coup and also the disgracefully biased BBC and Sky News.

BIG G

I have repeatedly agreed with you that he has been on the end of the establishment media giving it their all. It's second only to what was levelled at UKIP. A pretty distant second mind you - corbs will really have made it when both public service broadcasters produce fictional movies depicting the end of civilisation upon him gaining power, and then the media as a whole simply stop covering him when their smears don't work. I remember well your even-handed criticism of that period. :coffee:

Re the report - I'm not doing to read every 'damming' (sic) word in it but it complains a lot about him being associated with terrorism - but I couldn't see anywhere it shows the said associations to be false.

 

[Brainwrong]

No it doesn't. Corbs has no problem associating with forces and ideologies responsible for terrible violence and persecution. He's nor so much the peacenik this graphic suggests as opposed to western military action and capability.

What would Corbyn upping his game look like? Right now he looks part of the problem. As for being right wing fucked we're still recovering from the fucking we got from the - In some cases wildly - left wing last labour government, and we will be for years and years to come!

But the way Corbyn was portrayed as being down with terrorists was shownto be his words torn out of context to suit another's agenda. I'm sure we've discussed this before (not a sarcy comment!).

I don't dispute the Labour Party fucked us. But, I didn't see much left wing about Blair's party. Third way, an aw that.


Fair amount of turbulence.

 

[Kenny]

I genuinely laugh when I hear Corbyn supporters deny all the available evidence that he hasn't got a hope in hell's chance of winning a GE. His polling is worse than any opposition leader ever and that's a fact. I think the supporters he has are not in the slightest concerned though. That's not their objective.

isn't this a wider problem, that generally, it is the politics of personality rather than policies nowadays.

possibly due to disenfranchisement of the electorate? possibly due to lazy journalism? possibly due to death for the print newspaper?

not denying the polling btw

 

[egb_hibs]

But the way Corbyn was portrayed as being down with terrorists was shownto be his words torn out of context to suit another's agenda. I'm sure we've discussed this before (not a sarcy comment!).

we possibly have, but I can't recall anyone persuasively explaining away corber's persistent dalliances with anti western and anti freedom terrorists and despots of communist, fascist and Islamist types. There's nothing 'out of context' about it - his form is as long as your arm. No coincidence the Labour Party has become a fetid swamp of anti semitism and far leftism on his watch.

I don't dispute the Labour Party $#@!ed us. But, I didn't see much left wing about Blair's party. Third way, an aw that.


Fair amount of turbulence.

unless you're joining the kultists for whom pure and true leftism is the sole preserve of whichever tiny sect they're aligned with, then I fail to see how you get to this conclusion. On social matters nu lab were extreme left and with their pals in the media, arts and education, ushered in a US style culture war which has been and will be incalculably damaging. So total was their victory here, so iron does their grip remain on arms of the state like the BBC, that the Tories have had to move towards their position.

Economically, they were about as left as you can be these days; engorging the state with money we didn't have, running a bankstate economy to fund that largesse, shrinking the amount of British people employed in the public sector, and overall leaving us in a smoking ruin. Text book c21 leftism - they may not be Marxists but that's not the same as not being left wing. If you want Marxism these days you'll need to sift among the ashes of Venezuela, the torture chambers of Cuba and Vietnam or the concentration campery of North Korea. You'll not find it in Europe without a time machine.

 

[Jack]

we possibly have, but I can't recall anyone persuasively explaining away corber's persistent dalliances with anti western and anti freedom terrorists and despots of communist, fascist and Islamist types. There's nothing 'out of context' about it - his form is as long as your arm. No coincidence the Labour Party has become a fetid swamp of anti semitism and far leftism on his watch.

unless you're joining the kultists for whom pure and true leftism is the sole preserve of whichever tiny sect they're aligned with, then I fail to see how you get to this conclusion. On social matters nu lab were extreme left and with their pals in the media, arts and education, ushered in a US style culture war which has been and will be incalculably damaging. So total was their victory here, so iron does their grip remain on arms of the state like the BBC, that the Tories have had to move towards their position.

Economically, they were about as left as you can be these days; engorging the state with money we didn't have, running a bankstate economy to fund that largesse, shrinking the amount of British people employed in the public sector, and overall leaving us in a smoking ruin. Text book c21 leftism - they may not be Marxists but that's not the same as not being left wing. If you want Marxism these days you'll need to sift among the ashes of Venezuela, the torture chambers of Cuba and Vietnam or the concentration campery of North Korea. You'll not find it in Europe without a time machine.

You wax lyrical about this type of stuff and how it's pansy in comparison to the stuff UKIP and Farage get.

What you constantly ignore, as do the media, is the consistent sucking up of the Tory party to the likes of the barbaric Saudi regime, and they're still at it; the Tory Party and their love in with and financial backing from those heavily involved with off shore banking fiddles; the Tory Party and their softly softly approach to corporate tax evasion. And there's plenty more!

As a supposed Labour voter, like the Parliamentary Labour Party itself, I'd put it to you you've chosen the wrong fight.

There's no fluff in your navel!

 

[egb_hibs]

You wax lyrical about this type of stuff and how it's pansy in comparison to the stuff UKIP and Farage get.

What you constantly ignore, as do the media, is the consistent sucking up of the Tory party to the likes of the barbaric Saudi regime, and they're still at it; the Tory Party and their love in with and financial backing from those heavily involved with off shore banking fiddles; the Tory Party and their softly softly approach to corporate tax evasion. And there's plenty more!

As a supposed Labour voter, like the Parliamentary Labour Party itself, I'd put it to you you've chosen the wrong fight.

There's no fluff in your navel!

i don't know what you're on about Jack? What has this got to do with the establishments attacks on UKIP and Corbyn?

Comparing the barrel the Saudis have got all western governments over to corbyns enthusiasm for bampot ideologies for their own sake - is a bit odd as well. The only way to get away from that Saudi situation would be to open up alternative energies sources by fracking or securing alternative oil fields in somewhere like Iraq...

Finally, I am not a supposed labour voter, I view them as a shade less horrible than the BNP.

Apart from all that, bang on the money

 

[gun ainm]

a more lighthearted commentary on the Labour leadership by Frankie Boyle

Meanwhile, the Parliamentary Labour Party is trying to replace Jeremy Corbyn after ten months, showing all the patience of Prince waiting for his paracetamol to kick in. We’re told Corbyn is useless, then he manages to put together a more competent cabinet out of his billiards partner, an ex-girlfriend, mirrors, and some masking tape than May did with the entire back catalogue of fee-paying education’s finest. It's weird to see the media cast him as a bully, and it might just be a simple case of projection. At the moment he’s re-enacting a Spanish bullfight. He’s a beige bull staggering around an allotment with a couple of dozen swords sticking out of him, heroically whispering, ‘Who wants a courgette, I’ve got a glut’.

Corbyn hasn't formed a strong opposition, say a parliamentary party who voted for renewing Trident, bombing Syria, and cutting benefits. Really what Labour MPs are selling is a sort of nihilism. They have grown up in a party where their core vote had no option but to vote for them, and where until recently members had little power. So they're going to go into a leadership election asking their members to, essentially, abandon hope. The only time most Labour MP’s are going to try and inspire the working class these days is if they need a new kitchen fitted for a short-notice dinner party.You have to wonder how they'd fare under the same media scrutiny as Corbyn, particularly after a week where the Syrian bombing they voted to get involved in killed 85 civilians and one of the rebel groups it was supposed to support beheaded a child.

In a way Labour are the only party reflecting the mood of the country, by loathing each other. Angela Eagle withdrew from the leadership race. There was nothing about her that suggested leadership – she looks like she’d shriek every time Putin entered a room and has the voice of a Collie locked in a hot car. Owen Smith was head of policy for Pfizer, but despite his best efforts there still aren't enough drugs in the world to make his election seem like a good idea. Smith looks like his most radical policy will be not wearing a tie to the park.

There are a lot of people in Britain who need radical ideas, because the status quo for them is simply not survivable. Even with the full weight of the media behind them, it's going to be very difficult for Labour to persuade such people that things can go on as they are, that there's a non-radical solution. Theresa May might find she has a similar problem managing the expectations of those who voted for Brexit. What we can be sure of is that all this is going to demand a lot of distraction and scapegoating, and personally speaking I can't wait to see which religion, race, class, country, gender, sexuality, human right or raft of drowning children our political class decides to blame next.

 

[HenryLB]

Frankie Boyle is a mind-numbingly tedious man.

 

[gun ainm]

Frankie Boyle is a mind-numbingly tedious man.

he said in a mind-numbingly tedious manner

agree he's not everyone's cuppa tea and but there are some valid point within there

 

[HenryLB]

he said in a mind-numbingly tedious manner

agree he's not everyone's cuppa tea and but there are some valid point within there

Fair enough, it was a rather pointless comment ;)

I can't stand him though. Multimillionaire with his jokes that punch squarely downwards at disabled kids etc. It annoys me that he thinks he's making some kind of critique of celebrity or capitalism or something, but doesn't seem arsed to actually think it through beyond calling Jordan's children spastics.

He's also a master of rage with no actual answers. And if people engage with him and critique his arguments or approach he often retreats into saying "it's just a joke". I do find that tiresome, tbh.

 

[gun ainm]

Fair enough, it was a rather pointless comment ;)

I can't stand him though. Multimillionaire with his jokes that punch squarely downwards at disabled kids etc. It annoys me that he thinks he's making some kind of critique of celebrity or capitalism or something, but doesn't seem arsed to actually think it through beyond calling Jordan's children spastics.

He's also a master of rage with no actual answers. And if people engage with him and critique his arguments or approach he often retreats into saying "it's just a joke". I do find that tiresome, tbh.

I totally agree on the Jordan thing, however I also think he can be funny at times and fwiw i think far to many comedians shy away from the political nowadays. still this isn't a FB thread its a Labour leadership thread and the point he makes on the disenfranchisement of the membership and the hypocrisy of the PLP resonates with me

 

[egb_hibs]

Frankie Boyle is a mind-numbingly tedious man.

He's a prize roaster. It seems there is nothing he won't say to get a pat on the head from the establishment and his whole schtick is typically left misanthrope; full of aching concerns for humanity in the abstract, full of contempt for actual human beings. He's a court jester for the liberal elite and a snide bully.

He's also very funny I think, just as Bernard Manning was; deep unpleasantness and being funny are anything but mutually exclusive. It's pathetic reading his wheedling approval seeking missives to the upper class in the guardian though. Manning was every bit as nasty a piece of work but can't remember him being so craven.

 

[HenryLB]

I totally agree on the Jordan thing, however I also think he can be funny at times and fwiw i think far to many comedians shy away from the political nowadays. still this isn't a FB thread its a Labour leadership thread and the point he makes on the disenfranchisement of the membership and the hypocrisy of the PLP resonates with me

Yeah fair point, it does to me too.

- - - Updated - - -

He's a prize roaster. It seems there is nothing he won't say to get a pat on the head from the establishment and his whole schtick is typically left misanthrope; full of aching concerns for humanity in the abstract, full of contempt for actual human beings. He's a court jester for the liberal elite and a snide bully.

He's also very funny I think, just as Bernard Manning was; deep unpleasantness and being funny are anything but mutually exclusive. It's pathetic reading his wheedling approval seeking missives to the upper class in the guardian though. Manning was every bit as nasty a piece of work but can't remember him being so craven.

I'm not sure he exclusively appeals to the 'upper class'. He had a Sun column, after all, which I think betrays both the directionlessness of his humour - it's just vague, widely palatable snark, really - and his hypocrisy.

Also how the fck did he earn 7 million quid in five years. Anyone would think these comedians were curing cancer instead of making jokes about how difficult it is to get shopping out of the car.

 

[egb_hibs]

Yeah fair point, it does to me too.

- - - Updated - - -



I'm not sure he exclusively appeals to the 'upper class'. He had a Sun column, after all, which I think betrays both the directionless of his humour - it's just vague, widely palatable snark, really - and his hypocrisy.

Also how the fck did he earn 7 million quid in five years. Anyone would think these comedians were curing cancer instead of making jokes about how difficult it is to get shopping out of the car.

indeed; he is the 1% - which is probably why he spends so much time demonising proles who oppose their interest as racist, while deploying the worst possible racist tropes against defenceless disabled children. He really is a speccy prick.

 

[jock3]

Owen Smith has FIVE votes now. So that must be:

Himsel
his maw
his decorator
his dug.....

who else?????

 

[Smurf]

Revolutionary Labour led by Comrade Corbyn now 16% behind the Tories in the latest ICM opinion poll. Quarter of Labour voters last year prefer May over Corbyn.

 

[Jack]

Revolutionary Labour led by Comrade Corbyn now 16% behind the Tories in the latest ICM opinion poll. Quarter of Labour voters last year prefer May over Corbyn.

Without going back through reams of opinion polls and BIG Gs reports on council and by elections it seems to me the two are forever at odds!

Labour keep winning the polls that count, at the election box, while never being ahead in the opinion polls!

Having said that following a stewards inquiry into opinion polls following two dodgy GE and two dodgy referendum predictions who knows?

 

[southfieldhibby]

Revolutionary Labour led by Comrade Corbyn now 16% behind the Tories in the latest ICM opinion poll. Quarter of Labour voters last year prefer May over Corbyn.

I think that says more about them than Corbyn to be fair. She's fucking dreadful,anyone who proclaims to be Labour but prefers her really isn't Labour.

And also, does anyone put any faith in any polling company anymore?

 

[gun ainm]

I think that says more about them than Corbyn to be fair. She's $#@!ing dreadful,anyone who proclaims to be Labour but prefers her really isn't Labour.

And also, does anyone put any faith in any polling company anymore?

agreed - and the poll is proof that England will never deliver a social democratic/socialist government in the current era. I honestly don't see it as a leadership issue although more dynamism and a clear policy platform might help a wee bit. I admire his effort but there's simply not enough support for that brand of politics south of the border. It may be Labour could form the dominant party in a centre left UK wide coalition but really they are a busted flush and the reason why so many of us up here in Scotland have concluded that Indy (or a similar transformative shift in the constitutional arrangement) is the only possible means of progressing toward the progressive. the anti-corbynites who view themselves as labour here could probably find a home in Ruth Davidson's tory and unionist party (sincerely)

 

[emerald green]

I think that says more about them than Corbyn to be fair. She's fucking dreadful,anyone who proclaims to be Labour but prefers her really isn't Labour.

And also, does anyone put any faith in any polling company anymore?

again I find masel thinking spot on! you weed out the piss n wind on political threads.