Scottish Independence Referendum (Part 2)

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Should Scotland be an independent country?

  • Yes

    Votes: 67 78.8%

  • No

    Votes: 14 16.5%

  • Undecided

    Votes: 4 4.7%
  • Total voters
    85
Jack

Jack

Private Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2007
Here we go again!

Yesterday Nicola Sturgeon fired the starting pistol on the second independence referendum with what she called a "refreshed" case for independence.

But we all know it will be the same arguments as before. The yes side will paint a positive picture of what an independent Scotland could look like. The no side will argue Scotland is a bleak and dire place only held together by a benevolent Westminster.

Have you changed your vote since last time? Why?

I'm still YES. As an Englishman you can take that in a few ways, for example; You sweaty Jocks can fuck off and leave this green and peaceful land 😆 or, that I've lived in Scotland virtually all of my life and see an independent Scotland, free from Westminster and its inbred corruption, as an opportunity to build a fairer society for all.

And before BIG G nips in with his You only want this so that when we rejoin the EU you can go on your fag runs again - to right, I'll be on the first plane 😉 But really who the hell would want to be part of this ever increasing fascist clusterfuck known as the UK if given the choice? Its an embarrassment to us all.

Voters are allowed to change their vote at any time.
 
It won’t be utopia and will take time to benefit from but we are hitched to a hard right almost fascist like Tory Gov and their buffoon puppet in charge. They are taking us down a path we didn’t vote for or want to go down. For the sake of future generations we must make this happen!
 
For as long as here is a Tory government at Westminster I very much doubt there will be another referendum.
The only chance of there ever being another one is if Labour win a GE in 2024 and go into coalition with the SNP...even then it's a long shot.
 
Greenmachine said:
For as long as here is a Tory government at Westminster I very much doubt there will be another referendum.
The only chance of there ever being another one is if Labour win a GE in 2024 and go into coalition with the SNP...even then it's a long shot.
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Hopefully your wrong , Sturgeon seems to think it will happen 🤞
 
joethehibby said:
Hopefully your wrong , Sturgeon seems to think it will happen 🤞
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She can think and say what she likes...ultimately she is just playing to her party membership, most of whom joined after 2014 and are putting her under massive pressure to hold another vote next year. She can't do that though without Westminster allowing it or passing a Section 30 agreement which would transfer the power from Westminster to the Scottish Government to hold another referendum. Neither of which any Tory government will ever do.
 
Greenmachine said:
She can think and say what she likes...ultimately she is just playing to her party membership, most of whom joined after 2014 and are putting her under massive pressure to hold another vote next year. She can't do that though without Westminster allowing it or passing a Section 30 agreement which would transfer the power from Westminster to the Scottish Government to hold another referendum. Neither of which any Tory government will ever do.
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I agree with you about the torys denying the opportunity of a democratic vote but I think the courts will force it through, if not the UK courts the international ones. Then we'll get our vote.
 
Jack said:
I agree with you about the torys denying the opportunity of a democratic vote but I think the courts will force it through, if not the UK courts the international ones. Then we'll get our vote.
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Agree. Some court somewhere will rule Scotland can't be held prisoner in a union.
 
Jack said:
Yesterday Nicola Sturgeon fired the starting pistol on the second independence referendum
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She's fired that starting gun a good few times now and the race never even got started let alone finished.

I'm not going to get my hopes up too much at the moment as I just don't see the current SNP leadership having independence anywhere near the top of their list of priorities. This has all the hallmarks of saying something to keep the majority of their membership onside.

Here's hoping I'm wrong.
 
Archie said:
Really?
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I appreciate this tory government plays fast and loose with national and international law but yes, really.
The right of a people to self-determination is a cardinal principle in modern international law (commonly regarded as a jus cogens rule), binding, as such, on the United Nations as authoritative interpretation of the Charter's norms. It states that peoples, based on respect for the principle of equal rights and fair equality of opportunity, have the right to freely choose their sovereignty and international political status with no interference.
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I remember reading Joanna Cherry (who has views on on different legal routes to independence) saying she received lots of correspondence setting out the claim of right, approaches to UN etc. and dismissing them. I'll try and find the reference. I suspect the UK would simply say people voted against independence in 2014 so case closed. Appreciate Catalonia isn't quite the same, but there was no traction there. Also, many UN members have constitutions that say the state is indivisible. How does that sit with the above?
 
Archie said:
I remember reading Joanna Cherry (who has views on on different legal routes to independence) saying she received lots of correspondence setting out the claim of right, approaches to UN etc. and dismissing them. I'll try and find the reference. I suspect the UK would simply say people voted against independence in 2014 so case closed. Appreciate Catalonia isn't quite the same, but there was no traction there. Also, many UN members have constitutions that say the state is indivisible. How does that sit with the above?
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That will be for the legal profession to decide.

I appreciate folk don't want independence for all sorts of reasons but I can't understand why people who are supposedly pro democracy won't allow a democratic referendum to take place.
 
Lets do it people. Lets vote for the country we want. We wont get it right all the times. Some times we will get it wrong. We will have the power to control our economy and borders and joing the international community on equal terms.

We can voye any shite scottish government out which arent performing.

Its not about being run by the SNP. They can be voted out. Their could be a Scottish Labour Government, a Scottish Conservative Government, or any other hue...not tied to any other government.

Lets stop fannying about Scotland!
 
I think there are a number of different issues in your post:
- within current constitutional arrangements does Scotland have a right to secede?
- would the UN have any locus here?
- is it legitimate for states to allow or refuse parts of the state to secede
- Is there a legitimate argument to restrict constitutional votes on the grounds of how convulsive they are?
- if there is a 'right' to self determination does that apply to any area?

I'm asking the question because there seemed to be a fair bit of certainty here on the legal position.
 
Greenmachine said:
For as long as here is a Tory government at Westminster I very much doubt there will be another referendum.
The only chance of there ever being another one is if Labour win a GE in 2024 and go into coalition with the SNP...even then it's a long shot.
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Surely the 2024 GE can be used as a defacto referendum? Make it clear it’s about one issue only in Scotland and if more than 50% vote for the SNP or greens that’s the mandate to negotiate separation.
 
Canon Hannan said:
Surely the 2024 GE can be used as a defacto referendum? Make it clear it’s about one issue only in Scotland and if more than 50% vote for the SNP or greens that’s the mandate to negotiate separation.
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Tories wont agree to anything . Just go ahead with ref . Feck em
 
There’s an even easier solution to maintain the union. Change the way it works. Scotland and Wales call the shots, hold the purse strings, and England does what it’s fucking told. By us. Surely the unionists would be on side with that? No?
Thought not.
 
The current SNP is culpable of mind-boggling economic incompetence. Imagine the state of the country if they didn't have Westminster to reign them in...A Labour-run UK government is the best option. Forget the independence pie in the sky it would be a disaster
 
Thomo0762 said:
The current SNP is culpable of mind-boggling economic incompetence. Imagine the state of the country if they didn't have Westminster to reign them in...A Labour-run UK government is the best option. Forget the independence pie in the sky it would be a disaster
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No goin to happen though is it 🤷‍♂️
 
Jack said:
That will be for the legal profession to decide.

I appreciate folk don't want independence for all sorts of reasons but I can't understand why people who are supposedly pro democracy won't allow a democratic referendum to take place.
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We've had one though Jack....
What happens if a small vote for independence next time...will the No voters question that for years and demand yet another vote ?
When will it end ?
IMO referendums are a disaster and solve nothing.
 
Greenmachine said:
We've had one though Jack....
What happens if a small vote for independence next time...will the No voters question that for years and demand yet another vote ?
When will it end ?
IMO referendums are a disaster and solve nothing.
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50% +1 is a win and that's democracy.

If down the line a party or parties came to power on the back of an election pledge to rejoin the UK then we'd have to have a referendum.

I've not known this happening before. Do you know if its happened?
 
Thomo0762 said:
The current SNP is culpable of mind-boggling economic incompetence. Imagine the state of the country if they didn't have Westminster to reign them in...A Labour-run UK government is the best option. Forget the independence pie in the sky it would be a disaster
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Nonsense.
 
Thomo0762 said:
The current SNP is culpable of mind-boggling economic incompetence. Imagine the state of the country if they didn't have Westminster to reign them in...A Labour-run UK government is the best option. Forget the independence pie in the sky it would be a disaster
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Are you seriously saying scotland couldn’t govern itself better than the self-serving halfwits in westminster , be it tory or labour 🤷‍♂️
 
Thomo0762 said:
What is? The mind-boggling economic incompetence of the fact we need a Labour government?
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The incompetence of Labour. They will never win another election in my opinion.*



* Although they probably would in an independent Scotland ironically.

Ohh and how can any rational person refer to "SNP is culpable of mind-boggling economic incompetence" then compliment Westminster's ability to 'reign them in", when Westminster is ruled by the buffoon and his corrupt cronies.
 
Thomo0762 said:
It won't if everyone up here keeps voting for the SNP as a Tory
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Thomo0762 said:
The current SNP is culpable of mind-boggling economic incompetence. Imagine the state of the country if they didn't have Westminster to reign them in...A Labour-run UK government is the best option. Forget the independence pie in the sky it would be a disaster
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Mind boggling economic incompetence you mean like Brexit! We could have a Labour Government in Scotland not a pie in the sky one in WM and with just 59 MPs out of 650 we make little difference.
 
I really can't get excited about politics at all. It's pretty much like voting for the lesser evil. Everyone of them has their own agenda. Westminster completely corrupt and the SNP are harley doing an amazing job for Scotland.

That said I do believe Scotland can and should be an independent nation. The timing at the moment probably isn't the best for this I acknowledge. In the longterm though I believe this is the right thing for the country.
 
Thomo0762 said:
The current SNP is culpable of mind-boggling economic incompetence. Imagine the state of the country if they didn't have Westminster to reign them in...A Labour-run UK government is the best option. Forget the independence pie in the sky it would be a disaster
Click to expand...
You’ve fallen into the unionist trap of conflating independence with SNP-rule
 
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