Israel

Lets ignore the thousands who have been killed and maimed by the IDF and Mossad since 1848,the apartheid state akin to South Africa and the way the far right treat Black Jews who have seeked right of return from places like Ethiopia who are treated like shit by the white zionists.Not to mention the way the LGBTQ+ community are treated in Israel-please don't give me Eurovision winners I'm talking about the ordinary LGBTQ community.


All young Israelis serve time in the IDF and will be harrasing shooting and maiming the Palestinian populace in due time.


You just plucked a percentage out of the air without actually knowing it to be fact.


“All young Israelis serve time in the IDF and will be harrasing shooting and maiming the Palestinian populace in due time.”


That’s what one of the worst statements I’ve ever read on this forum and that’s saying something.

You truly are an imbecile.
 
“All young Israelis serve time in the IDF and will be harrasing shooting and maiming the Palestinian populace in due time.”


That’s what one of the worst statements I’ve ever read on this forum and that’s saying something.

You truly are an imbecile.
Thing is when you look at the statistics what he said isn't that unrealistic

You might have different views so be it the imbecile comment is uncalled for

Screenshot_20231009_220619_X.jpg
 
That'd be great, feels a long way off being feasible though. Not sure there's ever been a good outcome from partition so I get your point in theory, but it's hard to see how Palestine and Israel can come together in a new state?
South Africa not perfect but surviving.The United States of America after a civil war in the 1860's who knows even a united ireland.
 
“All young Israelis serve time in the IDF and will be harrasing shooting and maiming the Palestinian populace in due time.”


That’s what one of the worst statements I’ve ever read on this forum and that’s saying something.

You truly are an imbecile.
I take no lessons from a person who has never read a book.
 
Thing is when you look at the statistics what he said isn't that unrealistic

You might have different views so be it the imbecile comment is uncalled for

View attachment 12203

So everyone in Israel deserves to be murderer because they have national service?

You *&*^ have lost the plot.

And you take umbrage at the word imbecile

Have a lemon curd wi yersel.

By that ridiculous logic I could say that everyone in Gaza should be murdered cos they are going to be terrorizing Israelis sooner or later.
Fuck me.
 
Last edited:
I have stayed out of this, but it looks like a Celgers/ Rantic argument here, folk have taken their sides. Both sides are killing innocents for fuck sake.
With you in that. I can't support either side in the way Hamas attacked civilians and the random bombing of Israel on Gaza. Sunak publicly backing Israel is not going to go down well with large swathes of the UK population and might be a test of how well multi-Culturism is going to stand or not.
 
Last edited:
South Africa not perfect but surviving.The United States of America after a civil war in the 1860's who knows even a united ireland.
Mmm. More direct comparators would be countries across the Middle East from which Jews and Christians have been substantially purged for 100 years or more.

You put a lot of stock in books or documents on political theory Moaty. All banter aside, I know you are not one, so I would recommend you to approach with scepticism any commentator proposing what you have described here, because they likely are an anti semite.

It’s a rhetorical tactic used to put Israel on the back foot because the scenario sounds oh so reasonable but would lead to the Jews being wiped or forced out. As such writers well know. Well if they don’t, they are so detached from reality they aren’t worth reading anyway.
 
Thing is when you look at the statistics what he said isn't that unrealistic

You might have different views so be it the imbecile comment is uncalled for

View attachment 12203
It’s appalling and Israel is brutal in some of its actions. At the same time they are facing the likes of Hamas who launch rockets and then take cover within human shields, not only knowing, but I strongly suspect wanting the indiscriminate killing that results from Israeli bombing.

It’s not quite the same as systematically butchering kids at a dance then parading their corpses. That’s not to say I doubt that Israeli troops have intentionally murdered people btw
 
With you in that. I can't support either side in the way Hamas attacked civilians and the random bombing of Israel. Sunac publicly backing Israel is not going to go down well with large swathes of the UK population and might be a test of how well multi-Culturism is going to stand or not.
That’s an interesting point. Forget the rights or wrongs of this situation - or even this situation itself. It’s quite likely that Britain’s foreign policy is, if not now then at some point, going to have to take into account Britain’s internal peace. That might be for good or ill but it’s uncharted waters.

It’s the same across Europe and one reason the Jews still need Israel. It might not be safe for them in Europe in a few decades time. It already isn’t in parts of France.
 
Or not.

The next big issue in a world of selfish *&*^ would be where do the ships go.
So many conflicts in the world that nobody appears interested in finding peaceful solutions for so we are going to see a lot of people on the move.

Remember when we used to hear of peace initiatives....
 
Israel advising people to leave but there's no way to, complete siege conditions, water and other supplies turned off, bombs raining down, hell on earth. Bibi promising this is just the start.

Link to here, Humza Yousef's in-laws from Dundee trapped in Gaza currently in middle of visit to sick relative

2 million people there, under blockade in an area approximately 140 square miles. This is deranged.

Edit: for context City of Edinburgh is 500,000 in an area of 100 square miles
 
“All young Israelis serve time in the IDF and will be harrasing shooting and maiming the Palestinian populace in due time.”


That’s what one of the worst statements I’ve ever read on this forum and that’s saying something.

You truly are an imbecile.

I couldn't believe what I was reading....

Sadly though so many are so on one side with this. There appears no sensible pragmatic way through it. Folk there and all over the world are so entrenched in their positions.

Who the fuck in the world is calling for international action and dialogue to find a solution?
 
So many conflicts in the world that nobody appears interested in finding peaceful solutions for so we are going to see a lot of people on the move.

Remember when we used to hear of peace initiatives....
I don’t think people are disinterested - I don’t think there are solutions, is the problem.

Bill Clinton tried hard to broker a solution for this one, only for Arafat to pull the rug despite Israeli concessions - well, according to the Israelis and Clinton anyway, the Palestinian delegation blame the Israelis in turn.

Israel won’t accept anything that leaves them insecure, Palestinian factions won’t accept anything other than (at minimum) a return of territory Israel has occupied since a chunk of the Arab world invaded it.

Israelis wouldn’t want to live under an Islamic regime, and who can blame them. Palestinians wouldn’t want to live under a westernish secular regime, and who can blame them.

There is no fix anytime soon I fear, other than a two state solution where both sides compromise. I seem to recall reading years ago that Israel was exposed to its water supply being cut off (as they despicably use as a weapon themselves) and to high ground being used to launch aerial assaults. These days they get a lot of their water from desalination of the sea, so hopefully tech can address that concern and they have more room to compromise. But it will never happen if the Palestinians don’t meet them in the middle. Getting both sides to do that is …difficult.
 
I couldn't believe what I was reading....

Sadly though so many are so on one side with this. There appears no sensible pragmatic way through it. Folk there and all over the world are so entrenched in their positions.

Who the fuck in the world is calling for international action and dialogue to find a solution?
agreed.
as stated, I once knew folks on both sides. I take no pleasure in any of it.
but some of the statements from the leftie lunatics on here make me mad.
they talk of human rights and atrocities, then condone them when its their side that commit them.
total lunacy, I'm about to block some folks on here for the first time ever.

I'm praying for the innocents on both sides.
 
I couldn't believe what I was reading....

Sadly though so many are so on one side with this. There appears no sensible pragmatic way through it. Folk there and all over the world are so entrenched in their positions.

That’s the mental thing. As I noted above, Christians are persecuted in many countries with some shared attributes. So are others like gay people. But if British Christians started calling for a crusade to sort it out, or gay people demanded something similar, folk would think they were wingnuts, and with good reason.

In europe itself we have Turkey occupying northern Cyprus for decades, its inhabitants long purged. If the guy serving gyros started calling for a crusade to sort it out, we’d think him a wingnut, and with good reason.

And yet you’ve got peely Wally Scottish folk hailing intifadas on so on, and it’s quite the thing - and not at all the same thing as sympathising with Palestinians and criticising Israel.

There is something unique about this situation for which I have never encountered a satisfactory explanation. It’s mysterious.
 
agreed.
as stated, I once knew folks on both sides. I take no pleasure in any of it.
but some of the statements from the leftie lunatics on here make me mad.
they talk of human rights and atrocities, then condone them when its their side that commit them.
total lunacy, I'm about to block some folks on here for the first time ever.

I'm praying for the innocents on both sides.
It’s the sharp end of identity politics.
 
One thing that maybe doesn't help is that on both sides we have the hard-core voted by the people. Hamas by the Palestinians and Netanyahu leading a bizzare administration of some fruits. There's no pragmatism on either side. I don't think any side wants compromise or a peaceful outcome. Though surely the ordinary civilians on both sides feel differently. It's maybe the only hope?
 
The root cause of this violence is the occupation and blockade, Hamas are a symptom, malignant as they are.

The world cannot sit back and watch this, the UN should intervene perhaps in a similar way to Kosovo.

Then towards a 2 state solution based on 67 borders

Not holding my breath 😢
 
Last edited:
One thing that maybe doesn't help is that on both sides we have the hard-core voted by the people. Hamas by the Palestinians and Netanyahu leading a bizzare administration of some fruits. There's no pragmatism on either side. I don't think any side wants compromise or a peaceful outcome. Though surely the ordinary civilians on both sides feel differently. It's maybe the only hope?
That’s what happens though. Militancy begets militancy - the rise of Trump in the US in response to the excesses of the other side is a less bloody example.

The current slaughter being waged by Israel is the point of the slaughter by Hamas. They will hope it mobilises a general uprising and drags in other Arabs countries. Meanwhile, Israel’s ultra nationalists will use it as a pretext to advance their own unpleasant agendas.

It’s a well established tactic of ideological radicals and in asymmetric warfare.

The centre does not hold.
 
The root cause of this violence is the occupation and blockade, Hamas are a symptom, malignant as they are.

The world cannot sit back and watch this, the UN should intervene perhaps in a similar way to Kosovo.

Then towards a 2 state solution based on 68 borders

Not holding my breath 😢
And the occupation is a symptom of the threats facing Israel, manifested in the war during which they seized the territory to begin with. Round and round it goes. It’s frustrating, but misleading oversimplification is not going to help a solution be reached.
 
Interesting interview.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.
 
And the occupation is a symptom of the threats facing Israel, manifested in the war during which they seized the territory to begin with. Round and round it goes. It’s frustrating, but misleading oversimplification is not going to help a solution be reached.

do you think there can be a solution while the occupation persists? are you perhaps suggesting the occupation is justified?

should we support a UN Kosovo style intervention if it could be delivered?
 
Last edited:
So everyone in Israel deserves to be murderer because they have national service?

You *&*^ have lost the plot.

And you take umbrage at the word imbecile

Have a lemon curd wi yersel.

By that ridiculous logic I could say that everyone in Gaza should be murdered cos they are going to be terrorizing Israelis sooner or later.
Fuck me.
That's not what I said though was it

I said when you look at the statistics you can see why someone may think that

The rest I'm not even bothering to reply to
 
do you think there can be a solution while the occupation persists? are you perhaps suggesting the occupation is justified?

should we support a UN Kosovo style intervention if it could be delivered?
What do you mean by justifying ? I’m just saying what I understand to be the blockers. It certainly doesn’t justify Israeli conduct and it doesn’t justify the settlers.

I don’t know if there can be a solution with or without the occupation, and I doubt the Israelis are going to trust the UN, and understandably so, so that would be difficult in itself.
 
I confidently predict that in 20 years time a thread exactly as this one will be occurring on a future forum.

Once climate changes really hit the region you can add fighting over water to the list of things to fight over.

But I suppose if you look at the pre 1945 history between France and Germany and they haven't had a war for how many decades and it would be unthinkable now unlike in 1945-6. So maybe humanity is capable of occasionally not being utterly shit. But less religion in that case and starting from one side being utterly destroyed and the other side deciding to be constructive...... *Looks at the Middle east*.... Nah, not likely because religion (Sunni and Shiite Muslims ie Iran and Saudi Arabia and Israeli hardliners in government) and decades of tit for tat hatred and violence.

My next prediction is that Netenyahu is going to respond very badly and Hamas are going to get what they are after which is to pull the Islamic world into further confrontation with Israel. Iran will be happy. Ultra nationalists all over the region will be delighted. They can get on with killing the civilians of both sides! What fun they shall have.

And the left virtue signal in safe US and Western cities and offer no practical solutions.
 
@jetsam1 you hit on an awkward truth. Historically wars are usually resolved through demolition of one side forcing peace. People are reluctant to do that these days for very good reason, but it’s one reason the US could never win in Vietnam or Afghanistan etc. There are other reasons but that’s one.
 
@jetsam1 you hit on an awkward truth. Historically wars are usually resolved through demolition of one side forcing peace. People are reluctant to do that these days for very good reason, but it’s one reason the US could never win in Vietnam or Afghanistan etc. There are other reasons but that’s one.
And the challenge here is to get to a workable compromise and lasting peace well before the genocide. I am under few illusions that either side would take that as an acceptable option. I worry about who is backing Hamas as this attack is outside of the normal expectations.

I did try to read the Robert Fisk book (still on the bookshelf) "The War for Civilisation" and I cannot really give a review as like when I have read about the early Russian Revolution it is just simply too depressing even for me!
 
Wars and other conflicts (and crime now I come to think of it) are about ‘I want what you have’. That is usually basically about economics and in the west has largely been resolved by trade. Internally to the west it has been about grossly unequal allocation of resources - uprisings and revolutions resulting. That has largely been resolved by redistribution, although is drifting dangerously in the wrong direction once more.

But sometimes it’s not economic and is about land for the land itself, or about who gets to dictate the social order, or whatever.

This one is one of those and more difficult, because the Israeli’s want somewhere they feel safe which given the historical treatment of Jews is understandable and certainly not something they will be persuaded on. The Palestinians want the return of their ancestral home, which again is understandable and not something they are going to be persuaded on. Then the Israelis will point to it being their own ancestral home originally taken at the point of a sword by the antecedents (rather than ancestors) of the Palestinians.

It’s not as simple as religion though it’s a factor, especially given some of the dynamics within the Islamic world that Davy set out, but which I sometimes feel people don’t wish to understand, feeling on safer ground with generic ‘religion’.

But Netanyahu is an atheist - or at least declared himself to be before a political career which probably requires some more circumspection - the PLO were secularist etc. The idea that people can just intermix, interchangeably is a dubious one, and strictly a western one. Even in the west we have a ‘culture war’ because intolerant forces wish society to be remade as they see fit - that’s their ‘want’.

Now I believe they do constitute a religion of a kind - their worldview being based on faith articles and doctrine that comes from them - but most others don’t, believing religion to be Theistic, perhaps overlooking large swathes of eastern religion.

That point aside, internal cohesion is getting harder to maintain as people no longer share the same worldview. All of that happens in the west without people killing each other - though it is getting increasingly oppressive and dangerous - because the means exist to contain it.

Where those means don’t exist, results are predictable. Anyone who sighs ‘oh humanity’ needs to ask themselves if they would happily live under sharia, or communism, or a Christian order, or whatever else. If not, then there’s your problem. It’s not abstract humanity it’s you - well either that or it’s a reasonable position that is difficult to resolve. This is what diversity really means - and it’s almost the opposite of what the label is used to mean; uniformity and conformity to one world outlook which unthinkingly assumes itself to be the default (just as Islam does, incidentally).

No system is neutral and unless you have a shared consensus, you are going to have difficulties. It’s only going to get worse in the west and it’s hard to see how it gets resolved in any of the world’s hotspots.
 
It’s appalling and Israel is brutal in some of its actions. At the same time they are facing the likes of Hamas who launch rockets and then take cover within human shields, not only knowing, but I strongly suspect wanting the indiscriminate killing that results from Israeli bombing.

It’s not quite the same as systematically butchering kids at a dance then parading their corpses. That’s not to say I doubt that Israeli troops have intentionally murdered
They are continually bombing gaza
That's innocent people , a million of them children. They are not using humans as sheilds. Children are dying
They have cut off food and water to 2 million people

Not quite the same ? What hamas done at the weekend was rightly condemned but fuck me this is disgusting.
Nothing justifies this in any way shape or form
 
They are continually bombing gaza
That's innocent people , a million of them children. They are not using humans as sheilds. Children are dying
They have cut off food and water to 2 million people

Not quite the same ? What hamas done at the weekend was rightly condemned but fuck me this is disgusting.
Nothing justifies this in any way shape or form
It is disgusting. But Hamas do embed themselves in the population to produce this result. It doesn’t excuse the Israelis but it’s what Hamas want and they know how to get it.