First minister debate

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We need to persuade the ‘NO’s’ t vote yes through the economy and she is the only one that can do that🤔 Yousefs only plan is to go to war with westminster but until the NO’s are convinced to change that is pointless 🤷‍♂️
 
joethehibby said:
We need to persuade the ‘NO’s’ t vote yes through the economy and she is the only one that can do that🤔 Yousefs only plan is to go to war with westminster but until the NO’s are convinced to change that is pointless 🤷‍♂️
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If Scotland is truly so backwards that we think a religious bigot is the answer then this YES is changing to a NO. What's the point, may as well stick with the bams in Westminster.
 
joethehibby said:
We need to persuade the ‘NO’s’ t vote yes through the economy and she is the only one that can do that🤔 Yousefs only plan is to go to war with westminster but until the NO’s are convinced to change that is pointless 🤷‍♂️
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Forbes will lose more voters than she gains. Yousaf is my choice out of the 3, but he'd have to delegate well.
 
paigntonhibby said:
Is forbes any more of a religious bigot than yousef.
Anybody who takes religion seriously is going to take it into account when voting etc.
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I would have thought, considering the number of times you've attempted to make this point about Yusaf, that you'd have at least listened to what the man has said on the subject of voting based on his religion, then you'd know the answer for yourself. Is there something about him, other than his actual words, that's making you keep coming back to this?
 
I'd prefer Yousaf to the others on the basis that I'd rather have someone useless than someone vicious - what exactly is the purpose of independence if its a wee Tory running the table? - but honestly this debate is a great advert for Scottish Labour.

Unlike Scottish Labour itself, oddly enough
 
Rocky said:
I would have thought, considering the number of times you've attempted to make this point about Yusaf, that you'd have at least listened to what the man has said on the subject of voting based on his religion, then you'd know the answer for yourself. Is there something about him, other than his actual words, that's making you keep coming back to this?
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He missed voting on the gender thingy deliberately.
It disnae matter if its wee frees Muslims, catholics or orange men, if someone allows their religion to rule their lives then its gonnae reflect on the way they vote about things.
What I asked was whats the difference between a wee free voting on their religious principles and a Muslim voting on theirs.
 
FTJT said:
I'd prefer Yousaf to the others on the basis that I'd rather have someone useless than someone vicious - what exactly is the purpose of independence if its a wee Tory running the table? - but honestly this debate is a great advert for Scottish Labour.

Unlike Scottish Labour itself, oddly enough
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If there was independence there probably widnae be a wee tory running the table but tae get independence does it matter who runs the table.
The SNP membership is quite politically diverse so whoever is at the head would not IMO be able to just push through their own ideology.
 
paigntonhibby said:
If there was independence there probably widnae be a wee tory running the table but tae get independence does it matter who runs the table.
The SNP membership is quite politically diverse so whoever is at the head would not IMO be able to just push through their own ideology.
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I think the whole argument for independence is predicated on the idea that the national character of Scotland is liberal, European, open-minded, celebratory rather than tolerant towards minority groups or immigrants, and that safeguarding that is more important than the economy over the medium term.

Telling people that breaking up the union means we can get back to making I have a maggot too terrified to leave the house... doesn't seem like a vote winner, even aside from the moral argument
 
I've just caught up with the debate. I'm surprised by how hard they were going in on each other, Kate came in with the gloves off from the get go during the cross examination. Openly criticising the performance of each other in government positions was an eye opener.

As expected Kate went gung-ho on the economy and Humza did likewise on progressive policies.

For me Kate was reaching out to soft Tory voters just as much as she was to actual SNP voting members. The question for me is how many soft tory voters especially in the NE can she win over vs how many progressive style voters will she lose?

Humza's love for his own voice and his head to toe focus group designed image is going to put a lot of people off him. He'll maintain the progressive vote but I don't see from where he wins more votes for independence. He'll need a strong team behind him. I do give him a round of applause though for immediately and very openly declaring himself a republican, I wasn't expecting that type of answer from him.

One thing is clear is that no one has a f'ing clue what we can do to get independence after the supreme court's ruling.

I do still back Forbes for the benefit of the economy, but the eventual re-alignment of the SNP back to the center / center right under her and it's effects on independence support does concern me.
 
FTJT said:
I think the whole argument for independence is predicated on the idea that the national character of Scotland is liberal, European, open-minded, celebratory rather than tolerant towards minority groups or immigrants, and that safeguarding that is more important than the economy over the medium term.

Telling people that breaking up the union means we can get back to making I have a maggot too terrified to leave the house... doesn't seem like a vote winner, even aside from the moral argument
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A remarkable burst of Scottish exceptionalism there. Research such as the Social Attitudes Survey shows there's a much of a muchness in views across UK. In addition, large parts of England are much more racially mixed than Scotland.
 
Archie said:
A remarkable burst of Scottish exceptionalism there. Research such as the Social Attitudes Survey shows there's a much of a muchness in views across UK. In addition, large parts of England are much more racially mixed than Scotland.
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It's a burst of no such thing. I'm not asserting it, I'm saying it's the spiritual basis of the SNP's argument for independence: that Scotland isn't a Tory country, that social conservatism lacks the grip on the levers of power that sees 50% of attitudes win 70% of seats in England and pushes crooked little weasels like Sunak and Hancock into government and frees them from meaningful public scrutiny, and routinely chaining Scots to the yoke of a government that doesn't represent them and holds them in contempt is avoidable.

Of course there's bigots in Scotland. Of course there'd be a reliable bloc of Wee Frees and Orangemen in an independent Holyrood. But they aren't voting for independence, even if the SNP banned taking communion, so what's the point in a lurch to the right?
 
FTJT said:
It's a burst of no such thing. I'm not asserting it, I'm saying it's the spiritual basis of the SNP's argument for independence: that Scotland isn't a Tory country, that social conservatism lacks the grip on the levers of power that sees 50% of attitudes win 70% of seats in England and pushes crooked little weasels like Sunak and Hancock into government and frees them from meaningful public scrutiny, and routinely chaining Scots to the yoke of a government that doesn't represent them and holds them in contempt is avoidable.

Of course there's bigots in Scotland. Of course there'd be a reliable bloc of Wee Frees and Orangemen in an independent Holyrood. But they aren't voting for independence, even if the SNP banned taking communion, so what's the point in a lurch to the right?
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Thanks. I misunderstood your point. The thing is, I think Scotland is quite socially conservative. It's not that long ago that the SNP were ferociously anti EU, protested the pope's visit and tried to get 'safeguards' into the repeal of our version of section 28. So maybe what you characterise as a move to the right is actually a return to a natural home?
 
Archie said:
So maybe what you characterise as a move to the right is actually a return to a natural home?
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It is, to an extent - but when that was the SNP's policy platform, nae *&*^ voted for them.

The SNP became a party of government by repositioning their fundamental offer as perpetual Labour-hued government with no prospect of Home Counties Tories getting involved. If the members want to go back to cosplaying as William Wallace after a glass of sherry at the Lodge, that's their business, but as far as I can see there's neither a widespread desire to do so, nor any electoral future in it
 
FTJT said:
It is, to an extent - but when that was the SNP's policy platform, nae *&*^ voted for them.

The SNP became a party of government by repositioning their fundamental offer as perpetual Labour-hued government with no prospect of Home Counties Tories getting involved. If the members want to go back to cosplaying as William Wallace after a glass of sherry at the Lodge, that's their business, but as far as I can see there's neither a widespread desire to do so, nor any electoral future in it
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I guess we'll see in the next few weeks.
 
Archie said:
A remarkable burst of Scottish exceptionalism there. Research such as the Social Attitudes Survey shows there's a much of a muchness in views across UK. In addition, large parts of England are much more racially mixed than Scotland.
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Can you share your source please?
 
Archie said:
Thanks. I misunderstood your point. The thing is, I think Scotland is quite socially conservative. It's not that long ago that the SNP were ferociously anti EU, protested the pope's visit and tried to get 'safeguards' into the repeal of our version of section 28. So maybe what you characterise as a move to the right is actually a return to a natural home?
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Not that long ago? What 40 years? Still, that's only about 10% of a generation in yoon speak!
 
When will SNP members realise we will never get another referendum. This isn’t NI WM needs us too much. Regan was the only one with a plan and yes WM might still ignore it but you can appeal to the UN etc and at least there would be a democratic vote. Building support and more conversations is a waste of time when you still have to go cap in hand. SNP have become the party of devolution.
 
moathibby said:
Emoji boy strikes again.You should have been an ancient Egyptian.Hyrogliphs would be right up your street.
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who were you replying to Moaty so that I can see who has me blocked?
 
Rocky said:
Can you share your source please?
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whatscotlandthinks.org

Do Scotland and England & Wales Have Different Views About Immigration? - What Scotland Thinks

Using data from the 2017 British (BSA) and Scottish (SSA) Social Attitudes surveys, this report from Prof John Curtice and Ian Montagu details a systematic comparison of attitudes towards immigration in Scotland with those in England & Wales. It examines the overall prevalence of positive and...
whatscotlandthinks.org whatscotlandthinks.org

Ethnicity
England and Wales. Regional ethnic diversity d,17.0%25%20with%20white%20ethnic%20minorities

Scotland
Scotland: ethnicity 2018 | Statista
 
Archie said:
whatscotlandthinks.org

Do Scotland and England & Wales Have Different Views About Immigration? - What Scotland Thinks

Using data from the 2017 British (BSA) and Scottish (SSA) Social Attitudes surveys, this report from Prof John Curtice and Ian Montagu details a systematic comparison of attitudes towards immigration in Scotland with those in England & Wales. It examines the overall prevalence of positive and...
whatscotlandthinks.org whatscotlandthinks.org

Ethnicity
England and Wales. Regional ethnic diversity d,17.0%25%20with%20white%20ethnic%20minorities

Scotland
Scotland: ethnicity 2018 | Statista
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This is all true Archie, attitudes are similar. But behaviour isn't. So social attitude surveys say that Scots believe similarly but prioritise it far less and it has little impact on voting. The Scottish referendum study showed that there were those who wanted immigration reduced, thought that independence would see it increased but still voted indy. The relative lack of support for parties who are anti immigration also tells that story
 
Archie said:
whatscotlandthinks.org

Do Scotland and England & Wales Have Different Views About Immigration? - What Scotland Thinks

Using data from the 2017 British (BSA) and Scottish (SSA) Social Attitudes surveys, this report from Prof John Curtice and Ian Montagu details a systematic comparison of attitudes towards immigration in Scotland with those in England & Wales. It examines the overall prevalence of positive and...
whatscotlandthinks.org whatscotlandthinks.org

Ethnicity
England and Wales. Regional ethnic diversity d,17.0%25%20with%20white%20ethnic%20minorities

Scotland
Scotland: ethnicity 2018 | Statista
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Thanks, that's interesting although I didn't appreciate that you were talking specifically about immigration. FTJT's comment was a lot broader than that. Nonetheless I do find the results a bit surprising and they don't seem to align with other polls I've seen. It's interesting to see the difference between SNP supporters and the rest, I wonder how much of that is Ms Sturgeon's influence, and how quickly that might slip back if the new leadership takes a different tack.
 
Gareth said:
This is all true Archie, attitudes are similar. But behaviour isn't. So social attitude surveys say that Scots believe similarly but prioritise it far less and it has little impact on voting. The Scottish referendum study showed that there were those who wanted immigration reduced, thought that independence would see it increased but still voted indy. The relative lack of support for parties who are anti immigration also tells that story
Rocky said:
Thanks, that's interesting although I didn't appreciate that you were talking specifically about immigration. FTJT's comment was a lot broader than that. Nonetheless I do find the results a bit surprising and they don't seem to align with other polls I've seen. It's interesting to see the difference between SNP supporters and the rest, I wonder how much of that is Ms Sturgeon's influence, and how quickly that might slip back if the new leadership takes a different tack.
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I highlighted immigration because there's been a lot of discussion in relation to the small boats issue. I'd seen suggestions that Scotland was more pro-immigration and less racist than England. But the social attitudes survey shows broadly similar perspectives. Much more striking is how many parts of England are much more racially diverse than Scotland. I found that surprising, but again I live in Edinburgh and have family I the southside of Glasgow. So my personal experience is probably not typical of Scotland as a whole. I wonder if the constitutional question is so dominant that it crowds out other issues in a way that it doesn't in England?
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joethehibby said:
Haha🤣that could be me 🤔🤪but a canny block🤷‍♂️although a can spell hieroglyphics👍
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I think sometimes Moaty the Moat replies without quoting the person he is replying to. Cheers for clearing that up grumpy joe.
 
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