Chris Cadden, not good enough

[1 Mcnamara]

Since getting out of the Championship, we've finished (including this year) top 6 in 6 out of 9

Whether the manager does it twice in a row or not isn't the argument. It's where we should be. Period.

I'm not arguing with you that we should be top 6 minimum every year. But the fact is we are not. This year we have done it for the 2nd season in a row. At least we are heading in the right direction.
SDG has room for improvement for sure, but history has shown us that we often change managers with a downgrade.
Great managers are not knocking on our door desperate to work in the league and financial restraints we find ourselves in.

 

[Hammi]

I'm not arguing with you that we should be top 6 minimum every year. But the fact is we are not. This year we have done it for the 2nd season in a row. At least we are heading in the right direction.
SDG has room for improvement for sure, but history has shown us that we often change managers with a downgrade.
Great managers are not knocking on our door desperate to work in the league and financial restraints we find ourselves in.

I don't think this season compared to last season is the right direction.

Gone from arguably the best side in the league, to a very average side.
I don't see us picking up many points in the top 6 games. I don't see us playing good football.

I do see us failing to even threaten teams like Livingston though.

 

[Hibs Soldier]

You honestly don't think we should be a top 6 team?
Mental

Evidence proves otherwise. When we get in I'm delighted.

 

[Hammi]

Evidence proves otherwise. When we get in I'm delighted.

6 out of 9 is more regular than not.

I genuinely find that shocking mate. You accept us as a bottom 6 side and too 6 is an achievement.

Who are the 6 sides that are bigger than us?

Celtic, Hunco, Hearts, Aberdeen..?

 

[Hibs Soldier]

6 out of 9 is more regular than not.

I genuinely find that shocking mate. You accept us as a bottom 6 side and too 6 is an achievement.

Who are the 6 sides that are bigger than us?

Celtic, Hunco, Hearts, Aberdeen..?

6 out of 9 is good going for us and tips us towards being that top 6 team as you put it.

Your no getting my point again. I'm no accepting anything. I see what's happening in each season and see how it plays out. Make top six great no questions on the manager. Don't make top 6 and questions on the managers asked.

Apart from Rangers and Celtic id go along with other clubs being in line with each other.

 

[Hammi]

6 out of 9 is good going for us and tips us towards being that top 6 team as you put it.

That's because that's what we should be.

Make top six great no questions on the manager. Don't make top 6 and questions on the managers asked.

Doesn't this reinforce that point?

Apart from Rangers and Celtic id go along with other clubs being in line with each other.

I'm no sure about that though.

Hunco and Celtic are in a category on their own.
Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen are in their own category.
Motherwell, Dundee United and possibly Dundee in theirs.
Then the rest.

There's not a single chance we operate at the same level as a Livingston or Falkirk.

We're a big team up here, we should act like one.

 

[Beagle]

That's because that's what we should be.



Doesn't this reinforce that point?



I'm no sure about that though.

Hunco and Celtic are in a category on their own.
Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen are in their own category.
Motherwell, Dundee United and possibly Dundee in theirs.
Then the rest.

There's not a single chance we operate at the same level as a Livingston or Falkirk.

We're a big team up here, we should act like one.

I understand what you’re getting at however, it’s generally accepted that with yearly fluctuations we are on a par with the Gunts and the Sheep. None of us have been consistent with top 6 finishes in decades. Every other team starts the season trying to be top 6 or avoiding relegation and it’s 11 v 11 on the park and management teams who are pretty much in a level with each other as they’ve attended the same coaching school. Some clubs try a manager from outwith the Scottish managerial merry go round with varying outcomes because nobody can afford a Pep Guardiola so it’s a shot in the dark.

 

[Hammi]

I understand what you’re getting at however, it’s generally accepted that with yearly fluctuations we are on a par with the Gunts and the Sheep. None of us have been consistent with top 6 finishes in decades. Every other team starts the season trying to be top 6 or avoiding relegation and it’s 11 v 11 on the park and management teams who are pretty much in a level with each other as they’ve attended the same coaching school. Some clubs try a manager from outwith the Scottish managerial merry go round with varying outcomes because nobody can afford a Pep Guardiola so it’s a shot in the dark.

And Aberdeen and hearts will argue that anything less than top 6 isn't good enough.
So why shouldn't we?

 

[Beagle]

And Aberdeen and hearts will argue that anything less than top 6 isn't good enough.
So why shouldn't we?

Agreed. I’m just saying that every other club has ambitions to be top 6 and if the likes of us, gunts and sheep aren’t performing to that standard consistently then we don’t deserve it based on financial clout and sizes of fanbase.

 

[Hibs Soldier]

That's because that's what we should be.



Doesn't this reinforce that point?



I'm no sure about that though.

Hunco and Celtic are in a category on their own.
Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen are in their own category.
Motherwell, Dundee United and possibly Dundee in theirs.
Then the rest.

There's not a single chance we operate at the same level as a Livingston or Falkirk.

We're a big team up here, we should act like one.

On the manager thing it's always different. If he doesn't make top 6 with a bad injury list or the board sell our best player and don't replace him he can't be blamed.

I get what your saying stadium and income wise but it rarely makes a difference between most clubs outside the old firm. I mean just look at Aberdeen. Us, Hearts and Dundee United have all been over the place at times.

 

[Hammi]

On the manager thing it's always different. If he doesn't make top 6 with a bad injury list or the board sell our best player and don't replace him he can't be blamed.

I get what your saying stadium and income wise but it rarely makes a difference between most clubs outside the old firm. I mean just look at Aberdeen. Us, Hearts and Dundee United have all been over the place at times.

Hearts and Aberdeen have had the excuse of actual European campaigns playing midweek every week until Christmas in the seasons they struggle. We havebt

Obviously it won't always happen, but I'm rigid in the very minimum expectation being Hibs as a top 6 side.

 

[Hammi]

Agreed. I’m just saying that every other club has ambitions to be top 6 and if the likes of us, gunts and sheep aren’t performing to that standard consistently then we don’t deserve it based on financial clout and sizes of fanbase.

Deserving it is a different conversation. But if we can't collectively agree that's where Hibs should set their minimum target then there's nothing pushing them to be that.

 

[SuperTortolano]

6 out of 9 is more regular than not.

I genuinely find that shocking mate. You accept us as a bottom 6 side and too 6 is an achievement.

Who are the 6 sides that are bigger than us?

Celtic, Hunco, Hearts, Aberdeen..?

I agree that we should be a top 6 team consistently, but in my lifetime we've actually been more of a bottom 6 team. If you look at our finishes over the last 40 years, it's embarrassing. Throw in being relegated 3-4 times and it's even worse.

Top 6 should be the bare minimum, sadly that's not been the case.

 

[Hammi]

I agree that we should be a top 6 team consistently, but in my lifetime we've actually been more of a bottom 6 team. If you look at our finishes over the last 40 years, it's embarrassing. Throw in being relegated 3-4 times and it's even worse.

Top 6 should be the bare minimum, sadly that's not been the case.

This is where I think theres a mix up in how this is being communicated
Maybe on my part.

But under achieving for so long, doesn't mean we shouldn't expect to be better now.
Go back further than that and you've got people who have saw us win proper things.

Just because something hasn't been the standard, doesn't mean it shouldn't be.

 

[SuperTortolano]

This is where I think theres a mix up in how this is being communicated
Maybe on my part.

But under achieving for so long, doesn't mean we shouldn't expect to be better now.
Go back further than that and you've got people who have saw us win proper things.

Just because something hasn't been the standard, doesn't mean it shouldn't be.

100% agree with this. I think the club and unfortunately a large part of our support accept the mediocrity which the club has been for large parts of our history. Especially the last four decades.

If you compare us to that mob across the road, which I hate doing, but they don't stand for the same shit as we do. Most of our fan base is still caught up on the Scottish Cup win from ten years ago and still fawning over our "legends" I'm not saying they are not legends, of course they are, but the level of hype and how highly they are held is a bit much.

That mob have there own legends and won the cup twice, but don't laud those ex players in the same manor as we do. Ex managers like Levein, Naismith and Neilson all binned without the whole "legend" status blinding their judgment. Us on the other hand seem obsessed with bringing ex players back constantly and living in the past. The whole club needs a complete culture change if we want to progress rather than live in the past.

 

[Doc Shrink]

If the Gunts hadn't won the Scottish Cup since 1902 and then persevered.... to win it in 2016.....I'm more than certain that team would be accorded legendary status by the puddle drinkers.
I'm one of them that holds our legends to the utmost heights!
Did the same (and still do) for The Tornadoes.

 

[Hammi]

100% agree with this. I think the club and unfortunately a large part of our support accept the mediocrity which the club has been for large parts of our history. Especially the last four decades.

If you compare us to that mob across the road, which I hate doing, but they don't stand for the same shit as we do. Most of our fan base is still caught up on the Scottish Cup win from ten years ago and still fawning over our "legends" I'm not saying they are not legends, of course they are, but the level of hype and how highly they are held is a bit much.

That mob have there own legends and won the cup twice, but don't laud those ex players in the same manor as we do. Ex managers like Levein, Naismith and Neilson all binned without the whole "legend" status blinding their judgment. Us on the other hand seem obsessed with bringing ex players back constantly and living in the past. The whole club needs a complete culture change if we want to progress rather than live in the past.

I'm good with the love in for the winking side, cause that's my best day out and moment as a Hibee.

Agree with the general point of this though. It's a mentality thing and we are softer than they are.

 

[Zab]

100% agree with this. I think the club and unfortunately a large part of our support accept the mediocrity which the club has been for large parts of our history. Especially the last four decades.

If you compare us to that mob across the road, which I hate doing, but they don't stand for the same shit as we do. Most of our fan base is still caught up on the Scottish Cup win from ten years ago and still fawning over our "legends" I'm not saying they are not legends, of course they are, but the level of hype and how highly they are held is a bit much.

That mob have there own legends and won the cup twice, but don't laud those ex players in the same manor as we do. Ex managers like Levein, Naismith and Neilson all binned without the whole "legend" status blinding their judgment. Us on the other hand seem obsessed with bringing ex players back constantly and living in the past. The whole club needs a complete culture change if we want to progress rather than live in the past.

Don’t get the comparison with Hearts you’re making? They hire and fire ex-players too. They still get a full erection at anything 5-1 or Rudi related.

Hibs have never been sentimental about sacking hero’s/legends - Sauzee, Collins, Mixu, Hughes were all unceremoniously shown the door.

The Gordon’s have sacked every manager that failed to get top six, so they very much do not accept failure to meet that minimum criteria. I’d say that’s a culture change, wasn’t the case under Farmer & Petrie. The Gordon’s certainly are not sentimental.

David Gray has led Hibs to third, and could get fourth. Let’s see where we actually finish, but by any metric that’s hardly grounds for a sacking. Is the football great, are there signs of progress, is he making players better… those are all fair metrics too, and I’d argue the answer to all three is no, but that’s just an opinion. The league position and the progress in the cups are the cold hard facts he’ll be judged on.

As for supporters accepting mediocrity, well, I think that’s frankly incorrect. Hibs fans vote with their feet - attendances and ticket sales suggest we certainly do not accept mediocrity.

 

[Young porty]

And Aberdeen and hearts will argue that anything less than top 6 isn't good enough.
So why shouldn't we?

Yet hearts have been relegated recently and aberdeen have skirted with it a few times. This reminds me of mixus time. Got top six i think twice in a row then punted and fortunes dipped. Every managerial appt is a risk. Be careful what you wish for. The scottish game is at a very low ebb just now imho. Should we get a decent player or manager they are gone in a flash. Bar well for a while and falkirk ocassionally the football this season overrall has been dire. Reminds me of late 70s/early 80s in standard.
Its not just the spl though. The premier league is the poorest its been for a long time.

 

[Hammi]

Yet hearts have been relegated recently and aberdeen have skirted with it a few times. This reminds me of mixus time. Got top six i think twice in a row then punted and fortunes dipped. Every managerial appt is a risk. Be careful what you wish for. The scottish game is at a very low ebb just now imho. Should we get a decent player or manager they are gone in a flash. Bar well for a while and falkirk ocassionally the football this season overrall has been dire. Reminds me of late 70s/early 80s in standard.
Its not just the spl though. The premier league is the poorest its been for a long time.

My argument here isn't about sacking him, it's about our expectations.

Hearts were relegated for financial reasons, hearts came back at the first time of asking absolutely running away with that league.
And if they hadn't been docked those points, Hearts would've finished above us the season we both got relegated.
It took us 3 years to get out of that league, but we won the cup so Stubbs is a hero, and rightly so. But he failed his main objectives.

I've been arguing this league is poor for years. More reason that we should be among the best rather than middle of the road.
On paper what Dave's doing isn't all bad, but next season if we carry on like we are now, we won't be a top 6 side. Never mind challenging for Europe.

I'm the most blindly positive person on this board, I don't think I'm being too harsh in my assesment of what this squad is and what he's doing with them.

 

[Young porty]

The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains.