Castro is deid

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greencol said:
EGB will be along shortly with one rather long, definitive answer.:rollfloor
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Heh. He was a vicious dictator whose regime has clung to power even as totalitarianism receded elsewhere. He will no doubt be eulogised by some who danced on thatcher's grave, declaring her wicked. Such is the mentlaness of the totalitarian mindset.

Anyway, hopefully Cuba will now be delivered from under the jackboot's heel.
 
egb_hibs said:
Heh. He was a vicious dictator whose regime has clung to power even as totalitarianism receded elsewhere. He will no doubt be eulogised by some who danced on thatcher's grave, declaring her wicked. Such is the mentlaness of the totalitarian mindset.

Anyway, hopefully Cuba will now be delivered from under the jackboot's heel.
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That will rule out dealing with Trump then....
 
Twitter full of Trots telling us it's a sad day for the working class...
 
I've just had totake time out from dancing on Thatchers grave so I could say what a sad day for the working class
 
gun ainm said:
Neither hero or villain but all in all Fidel was a good guy I reckon

RIP

@Piltonstany - here's a decent summary http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2016/11/cloneofcloneoffidel-castro-context-2014331257121-161126054211145.html
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I'm not one for dancing on graves, but it has to be said that such a generous assessment casts views of other political figures in a queer old light. It is immensely unlikely that Trump or the most deranged of his followers will get near the crimes of the Fidelistas. It begs questions as to what the real source of outrage or lack of it may be. I'm old fashioned enough to believe a despot is a despot, whatever colours they fly.
 
Talking of dancing on Thatcher's grave I think papers released under the 30 year rule deserve another thread. Watch this space.

Cuban history is complex, however Castro should be remembered for:

- standing up against and taking down, the corrupt Batista regime in 1959
- delivering huge benefits to the Cuban people of a planned economy
- particular advances in medicine and health care
- providing military assistance to fighting corrupt regimes around the globe
- standing up against US Imperialism; in particular the disastrous Bay of Pigs invasion

A full political analysis of Castro's government is too lengthy for on here however in short:
- there were elements of Marxism - GOOD
- there was a little too much Stalinism at the expense of Leninism Not so good
- Precious little Trotskyism BAD

We should take a little time to compare Cuba against other nearby countries which took a different direction and spiralled into dictatorship, drugs and torture.
 
Cuba did spiral into dictatorship, torture and murder. Dunno about drugs but they've been happy to bring in some much needed cash by opening up to sex tourism.

Lenin and Trotsky killed millions and established the templates and methods for Stalin, Hitler and the rest. Still it's Margaret Thatcher who is the wicked one isn't it? And we all know who the looneys are... :wink:
 
egb_hibs said:
I'm not one for dancing on graves, but it has to be said that such a generous assessment casts views of other political figures in a queer old light. It is immensely unlikely that Trump or the most deranged of his followers will get near the crimes of the Fidelistas. It begs questions as to what the real source of outrage or lack of it may be. I'm old fashioned enough to believe a despot is a despot, whatever colours they fly.
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an i'm old enough to account for circumstance before offering comparisons
 
gun ainm said:
an i'm old enough to account for circumstance before offering comparisons
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What circumstantial difference causes you to think more than half a century of dictatorship, thousands murdered and millions oppressed, might not be as bad as stopping spending money the country didn't have on loss making state industries?
 
egb_hibs said:
Cuba did spiral into dictatorship, torture and murder. Dunno about drugs but they've been happy to bring in some much needed cash by opening up to sex tourism.

Lenin and Trotsky killed millions and established the templates and methods for Stalin, Hitler and the rest. Still it's Margaret Thatcher who is the wicked one isn't it? And we all know who the looneys are... :wink:
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I think if you'd stuck to the discussion of Castro it might have been more helpful in debating his pros and cons.

In addition to what [MENTION=13759]jock3[/MENTION] said I understand the education and particularly the university system was excellent.

I suppose though like leaders of all hues he looked after his own. If you were on his side all fine and dandy, buck against the system it will fuck you over.
 
Jack said:
I think if you'd stuck to the discussion of Castro it might have been more helpful in debating his pros and cons.
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I have. I merely note the odd attitude to those cons by placing it in context.

In addition to what [MENTION=13759]jock3[/MENTION] said I understand the education and particularly the university system was excellent.

I suppose though like leaders of all hues he looked after his own. If you were on his side all fine and dandy, buck against the system it will $#@! you over.
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He wasn't like leaders of all hues though is he? He's like authoritarian dictators of all hues.

Its always meh when the limited achievements of the Cuban education system are quoted as some kind of mitigating factor; high levels of literacy but access only to what the state wants you to read? A slightly underwhelming achievement.

Castro's contemporary in the horrible Latin Jefe stakes, Pinochet, handed over a chile to democracy which became the richest and safest country in South America with a life expectancy and literary rate pretty much in line with cuba's. Castro never let go his dictatorship and presided over poverty of every kind, taught people to be literate and threw them in dungeons if they said the wrong thing.

Nobody special pleads for the former and they really ought not to be for the latter; that they do is testament to the dominance of the the left in the universities and media, its innate authoritarianism, and thus which 'narratives' prevail.
 
egb_hibs said:
What circumstantial difference causes you to think more than half a century of dictatorship, thousands murdered and millions oppressed, might not be as bad as stopping spending money the country didn't have on loss making state industries?
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be interested to see you reference 1000s of murders

all i am saying is you cant compare the record of Castro with Thatcher without taking into account the starting position when each came to power. you think the Callaghan governement and the Batista regime are broadly equivalent? You think Labour donors tried to assassinate Thatcher 100s of times and funded an invasion? :lookaround:

JF Kennedy described the Batista regime (later) as "one of the most bloody and repressive dictatorships in the long history of Latin American repression", during his 7 years an estimated 20,000 Cubans had been killed by the regime.
 
gun ainm said:
be interested to see you reference 1000s of murders

all i am saying is you cant compare the record of Castro with Thatcher without taking into account the starting position when each came to power. you think the Callaghan governement and the Batista regime are broadly equivalent? You think Labour donors tried to assassinate Thatcher 100s of times and funded an invasion? :lookaround:

JF Kennedy described the Batista regime (later) as "one of the most bloody and repressive dictatorships in the long history of Latin American repression", during his 7 years an estimated 20,000 Cubans had been killed by the regime.
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I provided a link to an archive which has so far recorded thousands murdered by the regime. Estimates elsewhere have its killing many times more.

The Batista regime was overthrown in 1959 fella. It hardly justifies 57 years of dictatorship since. From the early days of the regime, revolutionaries who had been motivated by getting rid of Batista and restoring democracy, protested the replacement of one dictatorship with another. They were killed for trying to stop that.

I take your point about assassination attempts and am not condoning some
flavours of opposition to Castro but then I don't see Franco, Pinochet or whatever as mitigated by the forces on the other side in those cases, and I don't see the case for the defence being persuasive here either.
 
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egb_hibs said:
I provided a link to an archive which has so far recorded thousands murdered by the regime. Estimates elsewhere have its killing many times more.

The Batista regime was overthrown in 1959 fella. It hardly justifies 57 years of dictatorship since. From the early days of the regime, revolutionaries who had been motivated by getting rid of Batista and restoring democracy, protested the replacement of one dictatorship with another. They were killed for trying to stop that.

I take your point about assassination attempts and am not condoning some
flavours of opposition to Castro but then I don't see Franco, Pinochet or whatever as mitigated by the forces on the other side in those cases, and I don't see the case for the defence being persuasive here either.
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did you? specifically when you say murder I assume you mean deaths outside of the civil war and later the justice system? I've never seen any suggestion there were death squads such as those seen elsewhere in central and south America. Out of interest would you also say the allies murdered those condemned at Nuremberg?

Dont get me wrong i wish the Cuban revolution had trod a different path on human rights but there were real achievements (some mentioned above) in the context of the economic blockade which were remarkable in delivering a high standard of living in Cuba - and by that i don't mean VCRs or Rolexs = i mean low infant mortality, full bellies and good education. Would i rather have lived as an 'ordinary person' in Havana or Port au Prince? no contest. context.
 
gun ainm said:
did you? specifically when you say murder I assume you mean deaths outside of the civil war and later the justice system? I've never seen any suggestion there were death squads such as those seen elsewhere in central and south America. Out of interest would you also say the allies murdered those condemned at Nuremberg?
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a look at the archive or indeed some time spent on google would help clarify things. The comparison to Nuremberg is spectacularly inappropriate, but nor am I talking about purges of opponents which are better compared to say, Franco's purges. I am talking about a climate of state violence and murder which includes everything from the extra judicial killing of normal (i.e. non political) prisoners to the deliberate drowning of small children whose families were trying to escape his island prison. All points in between of course, and while we we'll never know the true tally - who knows what we'll find once the jackboot lifts. Amnesty reports of thousands of freedom campaigners jailed each year. At least things have eased up for gay people - who used to face the same fate - since sex tourism has become such an earner for the state.
Dont get me wrong i wish the Cuban revolution had trod a different path on human rights but there were real achievements (some mentioned above) in the context of the economic blockade which were remarkable in delivering a high standard of living in Cuba - and by that i don't mean VCRs or Rolexs = i mean low infant mortality, full bellies and good education. Would i rather have lived as an 'ordinary person' in Havana or Port au Prince? no contest. context.
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well let's remember the travails of Port au Prince are rooted in the original Latin American revolution - they rarely go well. The achievements of the Cuban revolution as far as I can tell amount to literacy rates and life expectancy that are the regional higher end. But they are not remarkable - not even by Cuba's own pre revolutionary trajectory - and others haven't had to run a prison society to achieve it.

As for American blockades - why would you respond otherwise to a Cold War ally of the soviets on your doorstep? Would you expect a nazi outpost to be a trading partner?

The fall of the wall has seen a rapid rise in Latin American prosperity as other countries have escaped the deadening cycle of soviet allies on one side and evil right wing bassas on the other, who survived through realpolitik indulgence of their bulwarks against the former.

Perhaps the worst part of Castro's regime is his refusal to lift the jackboot even during this quarter century plus. Perhaps more than anything else this illustartes the reactionary nature of the regime and it's power at all costs raison d'être.

Ps funny you should mention rolexes given Castro and Che's penchant for them - Fidel used to wear more than one at the same time.
 
gun ainm said:
did you? specifically when you say murder I assume you mean deaths outside of the civil war and later the justice system? I've never seen any suggestion there were death squads such as those seen elsewhere in central and south America. Out of interest would you also say the allies murdered those condemned at Nuremberg?
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So as long as there's some sort of trial it's okay to put gay people in prison?
 
[MENTION=325]gun ainm[/MENTION]

As well as the Cuba archive, amnesty international and human rights watch are worth consulting. Here's the wiki entry on human rights in Cuba which provides a jumping off point for institutional racism, the - now substantially alleviated - persecution of gays, torture, violent suppression of human rights protests etc

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Cuba

Cuba is the only country in the Americas still to make lists of the most repressive regimes - an achievement of a sort, I suppose.
 
Jack said:
Dr Denise Baden battles with the establishment view of Fidel Castro at the BBC - YouTube

Just leave this here for a moment.
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That's quite an ironic title for a lefty academic given a platform for a pretty nauseating exhibition of fellow travelling - and by mainstream media who have fallen somewhat short of treating Fidel as they have Trump, never mind other dictators.

A 'father figure' indeed - that's straight to the heart of the mentality of your average admirer of despotism, right enough.

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This plummy auteur of 'Fidel the musical' and her dismissal of the Cuban ladies in white, who protest for human rights and their family members languishing in Fidel's dungeons for doing likewise - in the face of violence by police and gangs of state sponsored thugs, and getting jailed themselves - is as good a distillation of the callous amorality of bourgeois leftism as one is likely to find.
 
egb_hibs said:
[MENTION=325]gun ainm[/MENTION]

As well as the Cuba archive, amnesty international and human rights watch are worth consulting. Here's the wiki entry on human rights in Cuba which provides a jumping off point for institutional racism, the - now substantially alleviated - persecution of gays, torture, violent suppression of human rights protests etc

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Cuba

Cuba is the only country in the Americas still to make lists of the most repressive regimes - an achievement of a sort, I suppose.
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nothing in there on thousands of murders which was your specific allegation - According to Amnesty International, death sentences from 1959–87 numbered 237 of which all but 21 were actually carried out. Wiki goes on to say that the vast majority of those executed following the 1959 revolution were policemen, politicians and informers of the Batista regime accused of crimes such as torture and murder, and their public trials and executions had widespread popular support among the Cuban population. Scholars generally agree that those executed were probably guilty as accused, but that the trials did not follow due process.

we're not arguing about the restrictions on liberty, use of torture, homophobia etc - I'd agree with you that they have a poor record. worth noting that Cuba have had a moratorium on the death penalty for 15 years while many other 'fee' countries continue to use it. sure change has been slow but post 1989 there has been change. torture was and is used by all hues of government - there's a famous torture camp on Cuba but its not run by the Cubans.
 
Kenny said:
yeah torture on cuban soil is horrific...

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/guantana...181w_jxfK6wEFFeagVnw7iCDcCr4njjy50BoCPYnw_wcB

think the UK had more to do with this than Fidel though?
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My favourite twitter exchange on that point

15170748_10154190051632252_7849567321558083657_n.jpg
 
gun ainm said:
nothing in there on thousands of murders which was your specific allegation - According to Amnesty International, death sentences from 1959–87 numbered 237 of which all but 21 were actually carried out. Wiki goes on to say that the vast majority of those executed following the 1959 revolution were policemen, politicians and informers of the Batista regime accused of crimes such as torture and murder, and their public trials and executions had widespread popular support among the Cuban population. Scholars generally agree that those executed were probably guilty as accused, but that the trials did not follow due process.

we're not arguing about the restrictions on liberty, use of torture, homophobia etc - I'd agree with you that they have a poor record. worth noting that Cuba have had a moratorium on the death penalty for 15 years while many other 'fee' countries continue to use it. sure change has been slow but post 1989 there has been change. torture was and is used by all hues of government - there's a famous torture camp on Cuba but its not run by the Cubans.
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The Cuba archive lists over a thousands extrajudicial killings - what term would you prefer to murder ? They don't need a death penalty with the number of extrajudicial killings and frequent accidents that occur.

Thousands of Executions are on top and these are low ball figures. Other sources estimate between 10k and 100k.we'll never know until the boot is lifted , if at all.

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Ps enemies of the revolution, even in early days include guys like this who turned against replacing one dictator with another

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Alexander_Morgan
 
egb_hibs said:
The Cuba archive lists over a thousands extrajudicial killings - what term would you prefer to murder ? They don't need a death penalty with the number of extrajudicial killings and frequent accidents that occur.

Thousands of Executions are on top and these are low ball figures. Other sources estimate between 10k and 100k.we'll never know until the boot is lifted , if at all.

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Ps enemies of the revolution, even in early days include guys like this who turned against replacing one dictator with another

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Alexander_Morgan
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I haven't looked at the archive and have no idea about its accuracy/bias - wikipedia doesn't have anything on murders though despite you referencing it above. Mr Morgan was seemingly tried and executed for his role in an attempted overthrow of the regime his wife admitting that 'she and her husband had begun running guns to anti-Castro guerrillas because he was opposed to Castro's pro-Soviet leaning'. You know i am against the death penalty in all circumstances but in the context of a civil war here they were plotting to overthrow (and presumably execute) Castro, this seems sadly unremarkable.
 
gun ainm said:
I haven't looked at the archive and have no idea about its accuracy/bias - wikipedia doesn't have anything on murders though despite you referencing it above. Mr Morgan was seemingly tried and executed for his role in an attempted overthrow of the regime his wife admitting that 'she and her husband had begun running guns to anti-Castro guerrillas because he was opposed to Castro's pro-Soviet leaning'. You know i am against the death penalty in all circumstances but in the context of a civil war here they were plotting to overthrow (and presumably execute) Castro, this seems sadly unremarkable.
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I referenced Wikipedia as an intro to many facets of the Cuban situation. The Cuba archive records the deaths of known individuals which is the most solid info on that subject when a totalitarian regime is obviously not going to share information. I have thus quoted it as the evidenced source versus much higher estimates from various observers.

The likes of Morgan were found guilty of trying to stop another dictatorship - the endeavour they thought they were engaged in to begin with. Whatever trappings were put around this does not elevate such actions above similar purges carried out by (for example) Franco. I'm not sure how this in anyway mitigates the regime. For the avoidance of doubt I am not equating Fidel with a Hitler or Stalin, simply pointing out your assessment is somewhat benign versus other leaders and regimes.
 
egb_hibs said:
I referenced Wikipedia as an intro to many facets of the Cuban situation. The Cuba archive records the deaths of known individuals which is the most solid info on that subject when a totalitarian regime is obviously not going to share information. I have thus quoted it as the evidenced source versus much higher estimates from various observers.

The likes of Morgan were found guilty of trying to stop another dictatorship - the endeavour they thought they were engaged in to begin with. Whatever trappings were put around this does not elevate such actions above similar purges carried out by (for example) Franco. I'm not sure how this in anyway mitigates the regime. For the avoidance of doubt I am not equating Fidel with a Hitler or Stalin, simply pointing out your assessment is somewhat benign versus other leaders and regimes.
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I'd have to look back at Francos use of the death penalty and extra judicial killing to offer much of a comment on the equivalence. My memory is a bit hazy but I recall thinking Franco was significantly more zealous and prone to summary executions but yip I'd be broadly content to agree that both left a lot to be desired in that context. The context is important to providing a full picture however - Franco overthrew a democratic govt and implemented the 'white terror' see LINK while Castro overthrew a despotic mafia state that was killing 10's of thousands of Cubans and executed (mainly) its former henchmen.

At the end of the Spanish Civil War the executions of the “enemies of the state” continued (some 50,000 people),[175][176] including the extrajudicial (death squad) executions of members of the Spanish maquis (anti–Francoist guerrillas) and their supporters (los enlaces, “the links”);Thousands of men and women were imprisoned after the civil war in Francoist concentration camps, approximately 367,000 to 500,000 prisoners in 50 camps or prisons.

I dont think there's an equivalence with Cuba there?
 
gun ainm said:
I'd have to look back at Francos use of the death penalty and extra judicial killing to offer much of a comment on the equivalence. My memory is a bit hazy but I recall thinking Franco was significantly more zealous and prone to summary executions but yip I'd be broadly content to agree that both left a lot to be desired in that context. The context is important to providing a full picture however - Franco overthrew a democratic govt and implemented the 'white terror' see LINK while Castro overthrew a despotic mafia state that was killing 10's of thousands of Cubans and executed (mainly) its former henchmen.

At the end of the Spanish Civil War the executions of the “enemies of the state” continued (some 50,000 people),[175][176] including the extrajudicial (death squad) executions of members of the Spanish maquis (anti–Francoist guerrillas) and their supporters (los enlaces, “the links”);Thousands of men and women were imprisoned after the civil war in Francoist concentration camps, approximately 367,000 to 500,000 prisoners in 50 camps or prisons.

I dont think there's an equivalence with Cuba there?
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I agree Franco was on a bigger scale - but then that war was on a bigger scale. The point of comparison was in purging ideological foes (who in many cases were not simple defenders of democracy) in aftermath of a conflict.

In this and then a long period of oppressive rule with lower level lethality, they occupy a similar bracket in my view - and one worth assessing with extreme prejudice even if it's not on a par with the soviets or nazis of the world.

Anyway that's pretty much the whole of my point; Fidel is not one of modern history's mega monsters but he was nevertheless a pretty horrible dictator who seems to be assessed pretty sympathetically compared to democratic politicians never mind his peers.

The whole of my point - and there's not much more to it than that, so I'll duck out now. I take no pleasure in his death and I hope Cuba can move on, and not either fall into the hands of some of the shadier factions represented in the exile community.

It is however worth looking into if lack of coverage has suggested to you that Fidel didn't have his own dungeons and torture chambers and unexplained deaths on a Cuban scale.
 
@egb_hibs your central accusation is that us 'lefties' have a blindspot re Fidel's record on liberty, homophobia and torture/capital punishment (for example)? Not so sure that the case (and I feel I have made my own views clear). In the coverage I have seen the hyperbole and hypocrisy has certainly been from the right. Noticeably absent is the failure to critique 'our side's' record - maybe I missed it but there was very little of this 'examination' when King Abdullah passed away last year? I do remember the flag over Westminster (and all govt buildings) was flown half mast, and Cameron, Hollande and Obama were tripping over themselves to attend the funeral - a diplomatic gesture to mark the passing of another world leader? were flags similarly shifted 4 days ago? who's the UK sending to Castro's wake? in my view we are too quick to condemn as tyrannical those that disagree with 'us' or don't suit 'our interests' and too lax when those same tyrannical instincts are revealed closer to home (metaphorically). the world could do with more nuance and objectivity.

I presume I don't need to compare the human rights records of Cuba and Saudi? where would you have rather lived the last few decades?
 
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