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Kenny

Kenny

Private Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2003
been and gone, letter delivered...tick tock

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welcome to the future...


FWIW radge farage has said he will leave the country and live elsewhere if it doesn't work out.
 
Smurf said:
Britain/Scotland out of this corrupt bureaucratic nonsense will be great news.
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So we can concentrate on our own petty minded corruption and bureaucracy, but without the various good bits the eu provided. Welcome to 20 years of Tory unchecked tory asset stripping.
 
Has anyone managed to explain how Britain being out of a union is good and yet Scotland wanting to take the same path is bad? No? Thought not.....
 
And folk who think we're leaving behind corruption are fooling themselves, we just do it on a different scale in The UK. Pension missold, Libor, PPI, insider trading, banks money laundering.
 
southfieldhibby said:
So we can concentrate on our own petty minded corruption and bureaucracy, but without the various good bits the eu provided. Welcome to 20 years of Tory unchecked tory asset stripping.
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I've got faith that most of what was UK law that became part of EU law will become UK law again.
 
Pounds & ounces?

This should be fun .

for anyone brought up with the metric system.....:rollfloor
 
southfieldhibby said:
So we can concentrate on our own petty minded corruption and bureaucracy, but without the various good bits the eu provided. Welcome to 20 years of Tory unchecked tory asset stripping.
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What EU bits are better than UK bits? I can't say I've studied this but for example, the much vaunted workers rights are often more generous in the UK than stipulated by EU
 
southfieldhibby said:
Sure it will Kenny. The Tories will be keen to protect workers rights, environmental targets etc. Sure it will.
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I'm no lover of the Tories but to caricature them all as Liam Fox right wing ideologues is IMO daft. There's many in the Tory party aware that to win elections they can't reverse everything progressive on the statue book. And indeed they've been in certain areas progressive themselves...

- - - Updated - - -

Beagle said:
Has anyone managed to explain how Britain being out of a union is good and yet Scotland wanting to take the same path is bad? No? Thought not.....
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Well that's an interesting point...

So says me who has always been bemused at the utter desperation to quit the UK for 'Independence' only to get into further political union in the EU....
 
Smurf said:
Well that's an interesting point...

So says me who has always been bemused at the utter desperation to quit the UK for 'Independence' only to get into further political union in the EU....
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EGB and others have mentioned this apparent paradox before and there's a good article in The Economist related to the point: http://www.economist.com/blogs/buttonwood/2017/03/playing-stalemate?fsrc=scn/tw/te/bl/ed/

It's a tricky line which ends up with politicians tripping over themselves through the use of soundbites and certain arguments. Most Tories and Unionists and some Scottish independence campaigners are doing it on a daily basis just now and the media seem unable to highlight it. The situations are quite different though and a case can be made for coming out of the UK and staying in EU as well as the opposite without necessarily contradicting oneself.
 
egb_hibs said:
What EU bits are better than UK bits? I can't say I've studied this but for example, the much vaunted workers rights are often more generous in the UK than stipulated by EU
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I guess it's having certain rules enshrined into each countries legal framework that appeals to me, especially given my work. Free movement of people, EHIC and open skies specifically. The open skies one it could be argued will be easily transferred, but up until that's made clear, that's a significant concern of mine. The EHIC scheme won't be replaced, we could also find ourselves having to apply for e-visas to go to France or Spain, much like we do with Turkey just now. Not ideal. EU261/2004, the much vaunted compo for delays ( which I'm sure some pro brexit pals have used) will be scrapped.

Consumer protection, mobile phone roaming charges also a benefit to current membership.

But I'd take a punt that it's not what we have now in comparison to the Eu, but what will happen once a fairly right wing tory govt do once they have actually taken back control to stuff like holiday pay, maximum working week, equal pay, maternity leave...
 
1875 said:
Kenny's original link in his post?
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I'd imagine the sample was UK wide? With a good percentage of the west coast of Scotland still celebrating a man in a white horse from three hundred years ago I don't think we can give anyone lectures on idiotic outdated thoughts and beliefs.
 
hibadelic said:
EGB and others have mentioned this apparent paradox before and there's a good article in The Economist related to the point: http://www.economist.com/blogs/buttonwood/2017/03/playing-stalemate?fsrc=scn/tw/te/bl/ed/

It's a tricky line which ends up with politicians tripping over themselves through the use of soundbites and certain arguments. Most Tories and Unionists and some Scottish independence campaigners are doing it on a daily basis just now and the media seem unable to highlight it. The situations are quite different though and a case can be made for coming out of the UK and staying in EU as well as the opposite without necessarily contradicting oneself.
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You can make a case - indeed I voted yes / remain myself.

My bemusement has more been specifically directed at those dismissing project fear in respect of Indy and cheerleading it in the context of brexit. That is totally incoherent.

The same economic sources point to the same risks in both cases (bar a few Scots motivated by preference for yes). And that's because the same risks exist in both cases, indeed more so for Indy.

People who were dismissing the idea of Scottish companies moving south chasing their export market, and denouncing those influenced by the threat as shitebags are not infrequently in a right lather over the same - though less significant - dynamics in respect of the European marketplace.

This is just wibble and I can't find an explanation for it other than failure to understand the issues or simple partisan bias forming opinions in each case. Neither is a solid basis for decision-making.

More broadly there is the whole question of burning desire to escape one overarching and unrepresentative government and legislature while clinging to another. But while amusing when it turns into tangled rhetoric of the kind you mention I don't think this is actually contradictory - as I say, I'm a subscriber myself.

Some of the rhetoric goes all confused because so much of all of these things is founded in nonsense. Those trying to conflate Indy with some kind of socialism get caught with the fact that the EU is a neoliberal construct until the English proles have the balls to reject it and suddenly everyone rushes to the skirts of the 1% . Meanwhile we sanctimoniously decry a Westminster which props up our statist economy while denouncing the taxpayers who fund it and are being squeezed by a globalism we are shielded from... staying firmly on our high horses complaining cuts that are indivisible from the same process. Loady pish.
 
egb_hibs said:
You can make a case - indeed I voted yes / remain myself.

My bemusement has more been specifically directed at those dismissing project fear in respect of Indy and cheerleading it in the context of brexit. That is totally incoherent.
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to an extent I agree with this - more prevalent of late is the counter position adopted by the Brexiteer right - that milk and honey will flow in a UK outside of the EU (essentially the argument being about control) whereas Scotland would plunge into a economic black hole were it to be so foolish as to leave the union. During indyref1 the position was different as we'd both likely have remained within the single market - that should have acted as a cushion to any economic fallout had their been a yes vote. Brexit has the potential to change things wholly and no-one is capable of making any predictions on economic outcomes at this stage.

The same economic sources point to the same risks in both cases (bar a few Scots motivated by preference for yes). And that's because the same risks exist in both cases, indeed more so for Indy.
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disagree that indy has 'more serious' potential economic impacts. why do you think it does?

Some of the rhetoric goes all confused because so much of all of these things is founded in nonsense. Those trying to conflate Indy with some kind of socialism get caught with the fact that the EU is a neoliberal construct until the English proles have the balls to reject it and suddenly everyone rushes to the skirts of the 1% . Meanwhile we sanctimoniously decry a Westminster which props up our statist economy while denouncing the taxpayers who fund it and are being squeezed by a globalism we are shielded from... staying firmly on our high horses complaining cuts that are indivisible from the same process. Loady pish.
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think you're oversimplifying it M, indy is conflated not with socialist utopia but instead with the notion that there exists a distinct gradient of social values between England and Scotland. That is evidenced by consistently different voting patterns. The key point is not that the English and Welsh voted to leave it is that we voted (by a massive margin) to stay (along with Norn Iron). people had a whole;e raft of reasons for voting the way they did and to characterise the desire for democracy as Scottish petulance from a position of privilege is both lazy and unfair
 
gun ainm said:
to an extent I agree with this - more prevalent of late is the counter position adopted by the Brexiteer right - that milk and honey will flow in a UK outside of the EU (essentially the argument being about control) whereas Scotland would plunge into a economic black hole were it to be so foolish as to leave the union. During indyref1 the position was different as we'd both likely have remained within the single market - that should have acted as a cushion to any economic fallout had their been a yes vote. Brexit has the potential to change things wholly and no-one is capable of making any predictions on economic outcomes at this stage.
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agreed, it's the flip side of the same coin - although I think remainers are more likely to argue Indy will be a black hole.

disagree that indy has 'more serious' potential economic impacts. why do you think it does?
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england is a more important export market for Scotland than Europe is for the EU. Even wings over Scotland (or one of these sites) was discussing this recently.


think you're oversimplifying it M, indy is conflated not with socialist utopia but instead with the notion that there exists a distinct gradient of social values between England and Scotland. That is evidenced by consistently different voting patterns. The key point is not that the English and Welsh voted to leave it is that we voted (by a massive margin) to stay (along with Norn Iron). people had a whole;e raft of reasons for voting the way they did and to characterise the desire for democracy as Scottish petulance from a position of privilege is both lazy and unfair
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I'm not characterising it that way; I am contrasting some of the more confused aspects of the Indy broad church, when it comes to subjects like the EU.

As an aside to what do you attribute different attitudes in Scotland?
 
southfieldhibby said:
I guess it's having certain rules enshrined into each countries legal framework that appeals to me, especially given my work. Free movement of people, EHIC and open skies specifically. The open skies one it could be argued will be easily transferred, but up until that's made clear, that's a significant concern of mine. The EHIC scheme won't be replaced, we could also find ourselves having to apply for e-visas to go to France or Spain, much like we do with Turkey just now. Not ideal. EU261/2004, the much vaunted compo for delays ( which I'm sure some pro brexit pals have used) will be scrapped.
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thats an interesting notion of workers rights - it's of rather more benefit to capitalism.
Consumer protection, mobile phone roaming charges also a benefit to current membership.
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these are somewhat marginal things though

But I'd take a punt that it's not what we have now in comparison to the Eu, but what will happen once a fairly right wing tory govt do once they have actually taken back control to stuff like holiday pay, maximum working week, equal pay, maternity leave...
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so why haven't they long pared back workers rights to those stipulated by the EU?
 
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