Are the SNP now actively trying to thwart independence ?

Forums New posts
egb_hibs said:
I didn’t say the SNP were fascist I said their behaviour was fascistic - ie it resembles fascist authoritarianism and injection of the state into places it doesn’t belong. That’s insufficient to make them a fascist party but it’s not a good look.

And I argued that Pinochet and Franco aren’t fascists because they are, respectively, authoritarian liberal and conservative. Fascism is progressive and radical and preoccupied with building the new society and the new man. Couldn’t be further from Franco in particular and the SNP like all progressive parties share more common ground.

As an aside , was listening to a podcast about Mosley recently, which just underscores some of this. I hadn’t realised that Nye Bevan supported his proposal to emulate Mussolini’s corporate state, or that he only lost 1.2m to 1m when he put it to the Labour movement.
Click to expand...
Ah ok, so fascist is solely Mussolini's regime but fascistic can be applied to anything that any state does that you view being in an area where they don't belong. That clears that up then
 
Gareth said:
Ah ok, so fascist is solely Mussolini's regime but fascistic can be applied to anything that any state does that you view being in an area where they don't belong. That clears that up then
Click to expand...
It wasn’t me that turned it into an ever elastic term old chap.

I’ve explained my usage - swap for communistic or socialistic if you prefer, it’s much the same thing.
 
egb_hibs said:
It wasn’t me that turned it into an ever elastic term old chap.

I’ve explained my usage - swap for communistic or socialistic if you prefer, it’s much the same thing.
Click to expand...
you've certainly stretched it much more than many
 
Gareth said:
you've certainly stretched it much more than many
Click to expand...
I really don’t think I have; the state as the arbiter of all, including in the personal and familial space is definingly fascist. The SNP have earned the description in respect of this specific behaviour, more than many who have been labelled with the f word - which usually means ‘stuff I don’t like’

“Everything in the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state” - it was the formula of the inventor.

Are the snp a fascist party? Of course not. Is their behaviour and mindset exhibiting fascistic characteristics in this case? Yes, yes it is.
 
egb_hibs said:
I really don’t think I have; the state as the arbiter of all, including in the personal and familial space is definingly fascist. The SNP have earned the description in respect of this specific behaviour, more than many who have been labelled with the f word - which usually means ‘stuff I don’t like’

“Everything in the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state” - it was the formula of the inventor.

Are the snp a fascist party? Of course not. Is their behaviour and mindset exhibiting fascistic characteristics in this case? Yes, yes it is.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure the SNP have done that any more than other Governments on this island at different times, and I think you are also mixing Government and State up a bit too much here
 
Gareth said:
I'm not sure the SNP have done that any more than other Governments on this island at different times, and I think you are also mixing Government and State up a bit too much here
Click to expand...
Any other party or government on this island that does likewise, is likewise. I think the SNP are apt to conflate government and state, among other things they are increasingly confused about.
 
No
Gareth said:
I'm not sure the SNP have done that any more than other Governments on this island at different times, and I think you are also mixing Government and State up a bit too much here
Click to expand...
No other country in the uk is supposedly more desperate for indy than Scotland ( supposedly ) Anything that disadvantages that is a major error IMO
 
joethehibby said:
If the number of people affected is miniscule, why do it 🤷‍♂️Is it not the SNP’s strategy of getting westminster to show disregard for the scottish governments laws and making it out to be unacceptable for them to do that . Has westminster ever blocked SENSIBLE legislation . It’s like what can we bring in to make THEM block it, crazy . The SNP’s current administration in conjunction with the MAD greens will only succeed in taking us further and further away from independence . IMO .
I am only one person who will not now be voting for them after 57 years, I have no doubt there will be many more 😩
Click to expand...
Apologies for interrupting a decent debate between @Gareth anx @egb_hibs but this is a momentous time for me.
Only two beers and three margaritas and at last I’m nodding at @joethehibby post.
I’ve nodded off before, but I’m in total agreement.
Going out shortly for scran and alcohol but fairly hopeful I still agree with Joe on my return. 😎
 
Doc Shrink said:
Apologies for interrupting a decent debate between @Gareth anx @egb_hibs but this is a momentous time for me.
Only two beers and three margaritas and at last I’m nodding at @joethehibby post.
I’ve nodded off before, but I’m in total agreement.
Going out shortly for scran and alcohol but fairly hopeful I still agree with Joe on my return. 😎
Click to expand...
You must be hungry going out for food after a couple of drinks and three pizzas. Respeck!
 
egb_hibs said:
Any other party or government on this island that does likewise, is likewise. I think the SNP are apt to conflate government and state, among other things they are increasingly confused about.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure if, for example, the Tories gave police enormous powers to interfere in the lives of people by criminalising all sorts of behaviours, and people called it fascistic, you'd be quick to criticise the terminology.
 
joethehibby said:
No

No other country in the uk is supposedly more desperate for indy than Scotland ( supposedly ) Anything that disadvantages that is a major error IMO
Click to expand...
That may or may not be the case, my point was about labelling it fascistic, which seems pretty hyperbolic to me
 
sockyboy said:
I'm normally loathe to take on any SNP bad stories from the telegraph but they really have just set themselves up as a target with this nonsense. You would have thought with the negative fall out from the gender reform bill proposal, they would have avoided this hugely controversial subject, but no, they're straight back on to it. They must know they're driving voters away and as a consequence making independence as far away as ever. I just don't get it. I voted SNP the last 2 elections, purely because I want independence but I'm back to Labour again. I had my doubts about them when Sturgeon left and couldn't see her being replaced but didn't expect the pantomime we've got now.
Click to expand...

I would rather not vote than vote for the red tories in the current Labour party.

Doc Shrink said:
Apologies for interrupting a decent debate between @Gareth anx @egb_hibs but this is a momentous time for me.
Only two beers and three margaritas and at last I’m nodding at @joethehibby post.
I’ve nodded off before, but I’m in total agreement.
Going out shortly for scran and alcohol but fairly hopeful I still agree with Joe on my return. 😎
Click to expand...

One word. Pampers.
 
Gareth said:
I'm pretty sure if, for example, the Tories gave police enormous powers to interfere in the lives of people by criminalising all sorts of behaviours, and people called it fascistic, you'd be quick to criticise the terminology.
Click to expand...
If it was as mental as potentially criminalising parents trying to keep their kids out of the hands of those ushering them towards life changing surgery, then I certainly would not be criticising anyone using that language.
 
joethehibby said:
I don’t believe they are fascistic, if they are serious about indepedence then incompetent would be a better word .
Click to expand...
I don’t believe they are generally. I believe they are behaving that way in this specific context, which Gareth seems to be taking issue with it. It’s no coincidence they’re doing so on an extremist policy which will not command popular support. It’s the way of the woke as it were.
 
egb_hibs said:
If it was as mental as potentially criminalising parents trying to keep their kids out of the hands of those ushering them towards life changing surgery, then I certainly would not be criticising anyone using that language.
Click to expand...
I think the likelihood is that unless it went against one of your political perspectives you'd keep shtoom. Banning protests, attacking an independent judiciary, voter suppression etc all seem every bit as much of a threat to me
 
egb_hibs said:
I don’t believe they are generally. I believe they are behaving that way in this specific context, which Gareth seems to be taking issue with it. It’s no coincidence they’re doing so on an extremist policy which will not command popular support. It’s the way of the woke as it were.
Click to expand...
You're obsessed by this thing called woke, a term that means whatever the person using it wants it to mean, i.e. nothing
 
Gareth said:
You're obsessed by this thing called woke, a term that means whatever the person using it wants it to mean, i.e. nothing
Click to expand...
No it doesn’t mean nothing, though I agree woke is a shit label - it’s just the radical left, same as it ever was; what’s new is that it’s set of a kind of religious mania in a far wider constituency this time around. And that’s happened because of how far gone our culture already is. You don’t seem to notice stuff though Gareth, or certain types of stuff. I’ve been thinking about your ‘nothing to see here’ on the universities as the rancid mess at Harvard unravels.

Now I dare say wherever you are it’s nowhere near the dystopian mess that the Ivy League are in, but being a smart guy and in the sector I would assume you couldn’t fail to be concerned at what the direction setters are up to, but apparently not.

There is no more important issue. Maybe you’ll finally smell the coffee when some authentic fascists take control somewhere, or some western countries ends up balkanised, or at the chaos that ensues if the American cop definitively puts down his nightstick. All potential terminal points that might well result if the boss class kulturkampf is not brought to heel; carving up vulnerable kids is ugly but in the end peripheral.

Try looking forward rather than backward. The times are a changing and theyre changing pretty darn fast. And politics is miles downstream of culture, as it always has been.
 
Last edited:
egb_hibs said:
No it doesn’t mean nothing, though I agree woke is a shit label - it’s just the radical left, same as it ever was. You don’t seem to notice stuff though Gareth, or certain types of stuff. I’ve been thinking about your ‘nothing to see here’ on the universities as the rancid mess at Harvard unravels.

Now I dare say wherever you are it’s nowhere near the dystopian mess that the Ivy League are in, but being a smart guy and in the sector I would assume you couldn’t fail to be concerned at what the direction setters are up to, but apparently not.

There is no more important issue. Maybe you’ll finally smell the coffee when some authentic fascists take control somewhere, or some western countries ends up balkanised, or at the chaos that ensues if the American cop definitively puts down his nightstick. All potential terminal points that might well result if the boss class kulturkampf is not brought to heel; carving up vulnerable kids is ugly but in the end peripheral.

Try looking forward rather than backward. The times are a changing and theyre changing pretty darn fast. And politics is miles downstream of culture, as it always has been.
Click to expand...
Off to bed but a final reply.
I notice lost of stuff thanks. I notice that a large proportion of people being no platformed are from the left and are being 'banned by the right, and are met with deafening silence by the real culture warriors of the right.
And while you obsess with Ivy League, you are silent about the right wing control of many other American Universities, many established by radical right religious doctrine. Not a problem though apparently, not being indoctrinated though apparently.
Unfortunately some authentic fascists are taking control of a number of countries, Italy a worrying example of such. You probably choose to ignore them or they'll fall into your selective idea of not fascist and not fascistic, while the things you don't like are likely included.
Now I've said nothing about the article you mentioned so have not yet got a view, though I'd take any Telegraph report with a pinch of salt. Your other recent Telegraph post about excess deaths for example. Did they ever write about the huge number of excess deaths caused by austerity. course not. but chance to attack one of the few remaining collectivist institutions and they're all in. That divergence aside, my issue isn't about being pro or anti this policy, its lazy notions of it representing a fascistic tendency
 
Gareth said:
Off to bed but a final reply.
I notice lost of stuff thanks. I notice that a large proportion of people being no platformed are from the left and are being 'banned by the right, and are met with deafening silence by the real culture warriors of the right.
Click to expand...
Get outta here. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen and it’s wrong when it does, but this is the mole hill next to mountains.

Gareth said:
And while you obsess with Ivy League, you are silent about the right wing control of many other American Universities, many established by radical right religious doctrine. Not a problem though apparently, not being indoctrinated though apparently.
Click to expand...
Go on, which obscure Montanan institute are we talking about here? Again, this is a pimple by comparison.

Gareth said:
Unfortunately some authentic fascists are taking control of a number of countries, Italy a worrying example of such. You probably choose to ignore them or they'll fall into your selective idea of not fascist and not fascistic, while the things you don't like are likely included.
Click to expand...
Get outta here again. Italy, and the many others are charting the course I’ve been predicting all along. But if you think Georgia fckn Meloni is a problem you ain’t seen nothing yet. People were ridiculing me for doing so 15 years ago or more, forgive me if I’ve little patience for you suggesting I’m ignoring something I long forecast. What I’m saying here is she is not the end, she is a very very thin end of a beginning. That said, I’d be interested in anything you can point me to where Meloni has done something more extreme or fascistic than the SNP is doing here, which you claim I’m over hyping.

Gareth said:
Now I've said nothing about the article you mentioned so have not yet got a view, though I'd take any Telegraph report with a pinch of salt. Your other recent Telegraph post about excess deaths for example. Did they ever write about the huge number of excess deaths caused by austerity. course not. but chance to attack one of the few remaining collectivist institutions and they're all in. That divergence aside, my issue isn't about being pro or anti this policy, its lazy notions of it representing a fascistic tendency
Click to expand...
I went on to post the Scottish governments own words. Stick with that if you prefer. As for the telegraph focussing on the disastrous record of our healthcare service, why the hell shouldn’t it ?

you’re blatantly just sifting on ideological preference and you are making yourself blind.
 
Last edited:
Gareth said:
I might. Cornell West was also prevented from getting tenure at Harvard, as have many other lefty academics.
Click to expand...
“Is Harvard a place for a free Black man like myself whose Christian faith and witness put equal value on Palestinian and Jewish babies – like all babies – and reject all occupations as immoral?” Cornell West

You’re seriously suggesting this as a counter to Harvard being a nest of anti Christian and anti semitic fruit loops ?
 
This is the problem discussing things with you EGB. You accuse people of doing the very things you do incessantly. Looking at things through my own 'ideological preference'. Yes I do, and I've always been honest about that. Like most people I have beliefs and world views that shape how I see most issues. But I've always been clear what are my views and what there is evidence for. But the idea that you don't is absolutely laughable. You see every problem of the world being due to some element of leftism. Even the problems of neoliberal capitalism seem to be the fault of those against it. And you, who have been flirting with far right replacement theory, as the non ideological one, gives a break.
I'll try to briefly comment on each of your comments above, but you do make me lose the will with the way you 'debate' at times.
Cancelations and no platforming. this is a pretty good piece, hope its openly accessible. Amia Srinivasan · Cancelled: Can I speak freely?
I've said before that the only clear no platforming I've come across at my place was a Palestinian critic of Israel. This isn't to say no platforming isn't happening, just that its over-hyped and wilfully ignores it when its done by the right.
Uni indoctrination. I don't have any figures to support this, but I'd guess that the hundreds, perhaps more, 'independent' and religiously established universities in the US teach far more students that Ivy League ones so they are pretty big pimples, and if the point is indoctrination then they clearly matter. And even in the Ivy League, Presidents who are on the left are rare (they tend to be white middle aged men who would think of themselves as being centrist), and right wing billionaire donors are setting about trying to change anything they disagree with as a requirement to get the dosh.
EGB as Nostradamus. I'm not sure your point here. Yes you have been predicting the collapse of civilisation for almost 20-years, so has David Icke. But that's nothing to do with the point being made about people with real fascistic ideas getting into government.
The SNP proposals. As I said, I haven't read about them. I'm simply wary about labelling something fascistic. Something you also used to be.
Cornell West. You pointed to the apparent removal of an academic due to their views on biology. I haven't listened to the podcast but am simply making the point that there is a very real filter that stops people getting jobs in the first place. This tends to act against those on the left, though I'd imagine it also prevents openly racist academics from getting jobs. I know little about Harvard, and care little about it either to be honest. I might guess though that your descriptions of it are a tad hyperbolic given form.
 
Looking at the original posts on the legislation, I do wonder if the pushback is about more than the subject of legislation? I don't mean to suggest that isn't important, but I think that there are other issues that make this potentially very unpopular.

The first question is what is it trying to address? I think most of us have images of gay people being held against their will or going through exorcism type religious acts to drive out 'gayness'. I don't think anyone would support that. But holding people against their will and assaulting them is already illegal. So why do we need this legislation? I don't think it's clear.

I suppose it's possible that a religious person who felt they were gay might want to go through such processes. I think that would be sad, but would conversion therapy by choice also be illegal?

Secondly, it should be clear what the legislation means. If the law sets a speed limit at 30mph then it's clear that you will break the law if you exceed that. But is the proposed legislation clear on when a person would be within or break the law? Much of the commentary suggests that it isn't?

Linked to this is confusion about terms such as gender identity. The Scottish Government minister leading says that there are many gender identities, including none. I'm struggling to understand that and at the very least it is a contested position. So again the police, prosecution and courts will have to apply legislation with little shared understanding of what it means.

Is the proposed legislation even handed? It appears that it would be an offence to carry out activities designed to stop someone transitioning, but activities designed to encourage transition would not be caught by the legislation. Is that fair? Some gay groups have argued that the pro trans approach is anti gay conversion therapy. Is it reasonable that only some conversion therapy is covered?

Is the proposed legislation proportionate? It certainly appears that the proposed offences and penalties are harsh, including jail time. I saw one blogger posting an example that an 11 year old boy could say he wanted to go to school in a dress and make up and if the parents say no they could be reported and prosecuted. I don't know if that's true, but if it is then there is unlikely to be public support. I did see the Minister quoted as saying parents would only be prosecuted if there was 'harm'. What does that mean?

So there are legislative proposals which appear to me to be: unnecessary; confusing; not even handed; disproportionate; unclear and lacking buy in from the wider public. Some posting on here have suggested it will affect very few people. So I guess the question is why is the Scottish Government doing this?
 
@Gareth

My Nostradamus act - it’s got everything to do with anything I say on the topic. Because I haven’t been doom mongering about the climate, or an asteroid strike, or killer AI wiping us out. My theme has been specific - that an amok progressive elite are destroying society and will spawn a horrendous backlash. That is now in train, and the gyre is tightening, the centre failing to hold.

Academic bias - good luck in finding figures to support your thesis, because study after survey finds academia (like the media) is overwhelmingly stocked by progressives, that diversity of outlook is disappearing, and that this is abetted by a fair old chunk of discrimination in hiring. I’m quite sure old school Marxists might fall victim to this as well btw - when I’m talking about the left I’m not talking about the steam age stuff you sometimes seem to be alluding to. I’m quite sure someone with Bernie Sanders views wouldn’t be welcome at Harvard either.

SNP proposals - I ask again; name me something more extreme that has come from Georgia Meloni who you have said is an authentic fascist. I don’t think she is by the way - it’s AfD (especially), Le Pen’s mob and others yet to come that are scarey. There’s talk of banning the AfD now ffs - just as people are trying to exclude Trump. Fiddling while it burns.

I don’t see every problems of the world as being down to leftism but I do see most of our current and existential social problems as being down to leftism and globalism. And as before I don’t mean fossilised forms irrelevant outside our backwater. And I see coming problems resulting from the far right they have empowered. So; left; liberal; far right. Not quite as narrow as you imply - though I’ve noted before that you seem to skim over some of my targets as if I’ve tacked them on when they are absolutely central.

Meanwhile there is a complete assymmetry between our positions, because the influences I talk of are, factually, those with the whip hand and overwhelming dominance in terms of the direction society takes. Your alleged examples in the other direction are at the very margins, and sometimes don’t even make sense - you cite ‘religious universities’ for instance, as if (for example) Catholic universities in the US aren’t as woke as they fckn come.

I’m sure there’ll be the odd evangelical college in shitsville North Dakota that doesn’t dance to the prevailing tune, but these are indeed pimples. The Ivy League determines the future of the US political and business and cultural leadership. Harvards wealth exceeds the GDP of over 100 countries. it’s not the same thing.
 
Last edited:
Ok, my last go.

You can’t argue that you don’t see the left as the cause of all problems, apologies for grammar. Even the likes of Trump and the emergence of the populist far right you characterise in simplistic ways as a reaction to the ‘the left’ or ‘liberalism’ rather than as political agents on their own terms. So a ‘progressive elite’ is destroying society, and they are defined by you solely in terms of their social liberalism. They can be the most bullying horrendous money making capitalist organisations running sweat shops and new dark satanic mills, but that doesn’t matter, they are progressive because you define them as such.

I didn’t say anything about whether academia was ‘stocked by progressives’, so you’re arguing with yourself there. As it happens I think there is likely a slight left liberal bias in academia, more in some subjects and schools than others. But I certainly think that the neoliberal university is run by free market radicals, who might now think it better to be nice to gay people, but simultaneously erode the terms and conditions of low paid members of staff. So, not progressive in my definition.

Re Meloni, she’s not done much yet, she seems to have realised that spouting fascistic policy is easier than doing it. That said, she also flirts with the great replacement theory.
But the SNP haven’t done this thing yet either.


Re US Universities, I think the Ivy League, like Oxbridge, is deeply problematic and a negative influence on society. I think the right to rule that these institutions imbue, and perform, is an affront to any notion of democracy. But I’m not sure that means that they are all bastions of leftism as you imply, and as I said the reliance on billionaire right wing donors is increasing. If they really were bastions of leftism those who have been born to rule would likely have had a more leftish hue. And the point about other universities, as I think you know, is that many were formed with a specific aim of providing a very narrow education, often based on religious texts. You seem very relaxed with that type of indoctrination. It’s those indoctrinating on positions you oppose that’s gets your ire.
Anyway, got marking to do in between attempting to destroy society
 
Gareth said:
Ok, my last go.

You can’t argue that you don’t see the left as the cause of all problems, apologies for grammar. Even the likes of Trump and the emergence of the populist far right you characterise in simplistic ways as a reaction to the ‘the left’ or ‘liberalism’ rather than as political agents on their own terms. So a ‘progressive elite’ is destroying society, and they are defined by you solely in terms of their social liberalism. They can be the most bullying horrendous money making capitalist organisations running sweat shops and new dark satanic mills, but that doesn’t matter, they are progressive because you define them as such.
Click to expand...
But the rise of Trump et al is a result of these forces. Now of course they have their own agency and are every bit as bad as those progressives; but it's the latter that brought us to this pass, and the latter who are the establishment and hold the power. We are however moving at a pace towards the stage where the counter revolution will become as bad as the revolution. That's inevitable because it very definitely is in character and sooner or later its going to have sufficient influence to make that felt.

As for 'social liberalism' remember that what we are talking about here is completely illiberal; racist, totalitarian, rejecting of reality and seemingly intent on pitting all against all (and substantially succeeding). We're not just talking of the stupidity that is making welfare states unviable and which trashes the less affluent, we're talking about really malign and bad actors.

I'm not sure what dark satanic mills you have in mind, and I'm not sure the point you are making. But why would exploitative work conditions be an impediment to progressives? The whole identity politics project is inseparable from that.

Gareth said:
I didn’t say anything about whether academia was ‘stocked by progressives’, so you’re arguing with yourself there. As it happens I think there is likely a slight left liberal bias in academia, more in some subjects and schools than others. But I certainly think that the neoliberal university is run by free market radicals, who might now think it better to be nice to gay people, but simultaneously erode the terms and conditions of low paid members of staff. So, not progressive in my definition.
Click to expand...
The facts are the industry is overwhelmingly dominated by progressives; attitude survey after survey demonstrates this. Again I'm not sure what you are arguing poor working conditions are to do with this? As above, part of the whole point of identity politics is that it enables that. And the idea that tenured progressive academics might be a bit venal is perhaps the least shocking idea ever voiced.

its a different topic but American academia is swimming in money as it doesn't have the constraints ours does. How much debt do we want kids saddled with for often pointless degrees to enrich our own bloated industry ?

Gareth said:
Re Meloni, she’s not done much yet, she seems to have realised that spouting fascistic policy is easier than doing it. That said, she also flirts with the great replacement theory.
But the SNP haven’t done this thing yet either.
Click to expand...
OK Meloni is an 'authentic fascist' even though she hasn't don't anything, but I'm out of line for describing snp's actual actions. OK.

What has Meloni 'spouted' that is more extreme than the SNP here ?

Gareth said:
Re US Universities, I think the Ivy League, like Oxbridge, is deeply problematic and a negative influence on society. I think the right to rule that these institutions imbue, and perform, is an affront to any notion of democracy. But I’m not sure that means that they are all bastions of leftism as you imply, and as I said the reliance on billionaire right wing donors is increasing. If they really were bastions of leftism those who have been born to rule would likely have had a more leftish hue
Click to expand...
What? Those who rule do overwhelmingly have a leftish hue. Just not a pre ww2 one.

Gareth said:
. And the point about other universities, as I think you know, is that many were formed with a specific aim of providing a very narrow education, often based on religious texts. You seem very relaxed with that type of indoctrination. It’s those indoctrinating on positions you oppose that’s gets your ire.
Anyway, got marking to do in between attempting to destroy society
Click to expand...
I'm genuinely not sure what you mean. Are you talking about the present day? What universities do you mean and what influence do they have? I'm talking about the ones that produce the politicians and the business leaders and the arts an media influencers. Im talking about the demographics of academia as it has been found to be by, well, academics. Who are you referring to ? If you are talking about universities of 200 years ago then I'm sorry, but why?
 
Last edited:
Archie said:
www.politico.eu

Outcry over neo-fascist salute engulfs Italy’s Meloni

Police probe reports of mass fascist salutes during a Rome memorial attended by members of Giorgia Meloni’s ruling party.
www.politico.eu www.politico.eu
Click to expand...
Thanks Archie. But what has Meloni done or said?

Don't get me wrong, she is on the face of it part of the drift in European politics I'm never done talking about. But I'm unaware of anything she has done or said so far that a) lives up to her billing and b) is as extreme as the SNP actions I was reacting to.

I'm quite happy to label the brothers of Italy fascistic. It's Gareth who is complaining about use of the term to describe this snp initiative while being happy to apply it to Meloni. So again, what has she done or said that is more extreme than the SNP in this case.
 
Ah jesus, just when I thought I was out etc
Your first paragraph is the key one. Things the left do that are bad = bad left. Things the right do that are bad = natural response to bad left, and yet you cling to the idea that your somehow balanced, or don't blame the left for everything.
The point about the dark satanic mills is that you fall for the crap that thoroughly exploitative people and corporations can be put in the progressive box if they say something inclusive about sexuality. Its reductive nonsense.
I've only seen one attitude survey on the politics of academics and it showed a skew left, but not a massive one. Interestingly though the ones that get national attention are mostly right wing. And the point about pay and conditions is about who runs these institutions, not who works in them. So again, an institution forcing down the wages and conditions of mostly non academic staff to you is in the progressive box because they espouse some social liberalism.
Meloni is attempting to variably encourage pro-creation but only for those 'true Italian'. The SNP do some batshit things, but fascistic they are not.
And really EGB, to argue that those who rule have a leftish hue in the UK or the US really is nonsense. The Democrats are almost wholly neoliberals and the Republicans have been taken over by neoliberals with a mix of neoconservatism. Sunak is a lefty, and Bojo before him. Outside of party politics big business is anti-union, anti most state welfare etc. Just because they now say something non discriminatory about race does not make them left.
No doubt you'll come back with some other verbose articulations that I'll be tempted to respond to, but I'll do my best to refrain
 
Gareth
I love reading the posts the forum big hitters post.
Is there any chance you could space the writing out a wee bit?

Nae probs if you can't but i find it easier to read if spaced a bit more.

Cheers
 
Gareth said:
Ah jesus, just when I thought I was out etc
Your first paragraph is the key one. Things the left do that are bad = bad left. Things the right do that are bad = natural response to bad left, and yet you cling to the idea that your somehow balanced, or don't blame the left for everything.
The point about the dark satanic mills is that you fall for the crap that thoroughly exploitative people and corporations can be put in the progressive box if they say something inclusive about sexuality. Its reductive nonsense.
I've only seen one attitude survey on the politics of academics and it showed a skew left, but not a massive one. Interestingly though the ones that get national attention are mostly right wing. And the point about pay and conditions is about who runs these institutions, not who works in them. So again, an institution forcing down the wages and conditions of mostly non academic staff to you is in the progressive box because they espouse some social liberalism.
Meloni is attempting to variably encourage pro-creation but only for those 'true Italian'. The SNP do some batshit things, but fascistic they are not.
And really EGB, to argue that those who rule have a leftish hue in the UK or the US really is nonsense. The Democrats are almost wholly neoliberals and the Republicans have been taken over by neoliberals with a mix of neoconservatism. Sunak is a lefty, and Bojo before him. Outside of party politics big business is anti-union, anti most state welfare etc. Just because they now say something non discriminatory about race does not make them left.
No doubt you'll come back with some other verbose articulations that I'll be tempted to respond to, but I'll do my best to refrain
Click to expand...
I didn't know whether to like the whole post or just laugh at the last bit 😅
 
EH17 Jimmy said:
Gareth
I love reading the posts the forum big hitters post.
Is there any chance you could space the writing out a wee bit?

Nae probs if you can't but i find it easier to read if spaced a bit more.

Cheers
Click to expand...
Sorry Jimmy, I'll do so in future, was maybe kidding myself that by keeping it all squeezed up I wasn't writing as much.
Not sure about the big hitter moniker mind
 
Gareth said:
Ah jesus, just when I thought I was out etc
Your first paragraph is the key one. Things the left do that are bad = bad left. Things the right do that are bad = natural response to bad left, and yet you cling to the idea that your somehow balanced, or don't blame the left for everything.
Click to expand...
It’s the left that calls the right reactionary. Isn’t that because they react to the left’s actions ? That aside, it’s beside the point, I’m blaming the left for what they deserve the blame for. They’ve worked long and hard to unpick the social fabric and now it’s unravelling fast. The right winger that are rising are just as bad, but they are a reaction, and that’s a fact. That’s all this is Gareth - I’m not left wing, I’m not right wing, I don’t like either. But the facts are the facts.

Gareth said:
The point about the dark satanic mills is that you fall for the crap that thoroughly exploitative people and corporations can be put in the progressive box if they say something inclusive about sexuality. Its reductive nonsense.
Click to expand...
Sorry, it’s absolutely indivisible from identity politics. You can’t have your cake and eat it.
Gareth said:
I've only seen one attitude survey on the politics of academics and it showed a skew left, but not a massive one. Interestingly though the ones that get national attention are mostly right wing.
Click to expand...
Let me know if you want me to dig some out but they aren’t hard to find
Gareth said:
And the point about pay and conditions is about who runs these institutions, not who works in them. So again, an institution forcing down the wages and conditions of mostly non academic staff to you is in the progressive box because they espouse some social liberalism.
Click to expand...
Progressive politics as championed by academics, among others, have enabled wages to be pushed down everywhere else; it’s the nature of the beast. Who runs these institutions? Who funds them ? Academics is the answer to the former I thought and the latter is increasingly Byzantine, no?
Gareth said:
Meloni is attempting to variably encourage pro-creation but only for those 'true Italian'. The SNP do some batshit things, but fascistic they are not.
Click to expand...
So Meloni encouraging people to have babies in a country with a demographic crisis is worse than the snp potentially criminalising parents trying to stop their kids being cut up? I’m not persuaded.
Gareth said:
And really EGB, to argue that those who rule have a leftish hue in the UK or the US really is nonsense. The Democrats are almost wholly neoliberals
Click to expand...
Yes but that’s the actually existing left as well as their blue haired cadres. I’m not talking about ancient history which is irrelevant

Gareth said:
and the Republicans have been taken over by neoliberals with a mix of neoconservatism.
Click to expand...
Yup.

Gareth said:
Sunak is a lefty, and Bojo before him. Outside of party politics big business is anti-union, anti most state welfare etc. Just because they now say something non discriminatory about race does not make them left.
No doubt you'll come back with some other verbose articulations that I'll be tempted to respond to, but I'll do my best to refrain
Click to expand...
half the tories aren’t that far removed from woke capitalism tbh but yes, democratically elected roles are the one place where the left is not hegemonic. Bit of a coincidence that. The unelected arms of the establishment it’s virtually hegemonic.
 
Gareth said:
Sorry Jimmy, I'll do so in future, was maybe kidding myself that by keeping it all squeezed up I wasn't writing as much.
Not sure about the big hitter moniker mind
Click to expand...
Here mate you, eegie and Archie use words I've got look up 🤨

There's some Barry posts by yous
 
EH17 Jimmy said:
Here mate you, eegie and Archie use words I've got look up 🤨

There's some Barry posts by yous
Click to expand...
@Gareth is a great poster. Agree about the spacing though. I will calm down too - been stuck in a small room for 9 days with Covid as I couldn’t expose my wife who is potentially needs to be with a very vulnerable person. I’ve been getting like a caged tiger lol. Or a caged mangy cat anyway.

That said, negative today hurrah so that’s over thank fuck!
 
Apparently £1.7m had covid 5 days ago, now down tae £1.4m , past its peak now, so the scientists say 👍
 
joethehibby said:
Apparently £1.7m had covid 5 days ago, now down tae £1.4m , past its peak now, so the scientists say 👍
Click to expand...
Who still tests? Buggered if I’m paying for a test at the chemists. I used the last of the ones we had a few months ago when I came down with it. Figures would be way higher than that if it’s based on actual positive tests
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
  • Menu
  • Home
  • Hibs Chat
  • New Posts
  • Just Back
  • Chatroom