zero hours contracts

[Kenny]

zero hours contracts -

now i fully understand why they are bad but won't they just be replaced with a 1 hour contract?

... or ... DWP just push u25 jobseekers into unpaid "work experience" and they get free workers?

so two things - 1. what is the cause? is it just because they can? and 2. what is the real solution.

 

[Dub]

zero hours contracts -

now i fully understand why they are bad but won't they just be replaced with a 1 hour contract?

... or ... DWP just push u25 jobseekers into unpaid "work experience" and they get free workers?

so two things - 1. what is the cause? is it just because they can? and 2. what is the real solution.

I was having a discussion with one of my mates re zero hours contracts the other night. He tells me [I've no proof] that some of the contracts are probitive in that if you sign a zero hours contract with one company you cannot then take up work for another company even though the first company hasnt offered you work on any given day. If that is the case its a fukking disgrace.

I reckon zero hours contracts will suit some people but I dont reckon you can shoehorn people in to the zero contracts model.

It doesn't answer your questions though :

 

[HenryLB]

Guy I know loves his zero hours contract because he and his boss just declare that he only worked ten when he actually does a sixty hour week. Mainly this is to avoid the payments on the nine kids he has with five different women.

The only thing I can say about 'work experience' is that it's illegal as I understand it to not pay someone after two weeks, or a month absolute max.

However I don't think this is enforced that much. In my industry there's thousands of college leavers working for nothing and I recently saw an advertised 'job' from a major production company that was a six months unpaid 'internship'. A brief read of the duties made it quite clear that in fact they just wanted an unpaid PA.

 

[Dub]

Guy I know loves his zero hours contract because he and his boss just declare that he only worked ten when he actually does a sixty hour week. Mainly this is to avoid the payments on the nine kids he has with five different women.

The only thing I can say about 'work experience' is that it's illegal as I understand it to not pay someone after two weeks, or a month absolute max.

However I don't think this is enforced that much. In my industry there's thousands of college leavers working for nothing and I recently saw an advertised 'job' from a major production company that was a six months unpaid 'internship'. A brief read of the duties made it quite clear that in fact they just wanted an unpaid PA.

Does this mean your mate is evading tax on 50 hours a week wages?

 

[HenryLB]

Does this mean your mate is evading tax on 50 hours a week wages?

I'd guess so.

 

[Kenny]

Guy I know loves his zero hours contract because he and his boss just declare that he only worked ten when he actually does a sixty hour week. Mainly this is to avoid the payments on the nine kids he has with five different women.

Leigh Griffiths is on a zero hours contract?

 

[Dub]

I'd guess so.

Shame on him then. As an upstanding member of the community should you not report him?

 

[The__Proclaimer]

It's employers taking the utter piss that's the problem not the contracts per se. Working in health bank/relief/locum staff are absolutely essential to the running of any organisation. For example 0hrs ideal for a student who only wants to work weekends at start of term, one shift a week when busier, none over Xmas when back home and full time during summer holidays which helps cover your busiest annual leave period.

What's happening now tho is employers now employing invariably foreign staff, which I've nothing against they know how to graft, but have them on 0hrs working 80+hr weeks, ilegal 30hrs shifts in a one-er, pay them at a reduced rate from contracted staff and they receive zero pay for sickness and holidays. It's absolutely appalling but can't see how you can ban them.

 

[HenryLB]

Shame on him then. As an upstanding member of the community should you not report him?

I'm not an upstanding member of the community.

 

[egb_hibs]

It's employers taking the utter piss that's the problem not the contracts per se. Working in health bank/relief/locum staff are absolutely essential to the running of any organisation. For example 0hrs ideal for a student who only wants to work weekends at start of term, one shift a week when busier, none over Xmas when back home and full time during summer holidays which helps cover your busiest annual leave period.

What's happening now tho is employers now employing invariably foreign staff, which I've nothing against they know how to graft, but have them on 0hrs working 80+hr weeks, ilegal 30hrs shifts in a one-er, pay them at a reduced rate from contracted staff and they receive zero pay for sickness and holidays. It's absolutely appalling but can't see how you can ban them.

Zero hours workers are effectively self employed, like taxi drivers. Shouldn't they have the get up and go to follow the demand wherever goes and quit complaining about it?

Or does that only apply to workers who have to earn 450 squid to even get to zero hour?

 

[HenryLB]

Zero hours workers are effectively self employed, like taxi drivers. Shouldn't they have the get up and go to follow the demand wherever goes and quit complaining about it?

Or does that only apply to workers who have to earn 450 squid to even get to zero hour?

They're only self employed in the sense that everybody is self employed because they have contracts which restrict their ability to work in other jobs. And JJB Sports shuts - the cab trade is 24/7.

 

[egb_hibs]

I'm drawing a comparison to proclaimers Friedman-esque attitude to cabbies. Zero hours workers share with them the no work no money in dynamic unlike people on more traditional employments contracts.

It strikes me as odd to cheer on ber while lamenting zero hours

 

[The__Proclaimer]

I'm drawing a comparison to proclaimers Friedman-esque attitude to cabbies. Zero hours workers share with them the no work no money in dynamic unlike people on more traditional employments contracts.

It strikes me as odd to cheer on ber while lamenting zero hours

Someone doing an 80hr week of mornings, days and nights can hardly be accused of dodging work.

 

[egb_hibs]

Someone doing an 80hr week of mornings, days and nights can hardly be accused of dodging work.

Indeed. It's a circular issue though - if these are temporary workers they're still making a bundle in terms of spending power in their home location. In those circumstances the bigger issue is how this erodes stable and lucrative employment for others.

I worked shifts like you describe when I was a young un as I'm sure many of us did - if I was earning multiples compared to my home economy I would have worked even longer. As above the real issue is transient labour producing transient employment contracts as well as depressing labour rates.

 

[HenryLB]

I'm drawing a comparison to proclaimers Friedman-esque attitude to cabbies. Zero hours workers share with them the no work no money in dynamic unlike people on more traditional employments contracts.

It strikes me as odd to cheer on ber while lamenting zero hours

Not really, because his point is the Edinburgh trade seems specifically not to work well so cheering on uber is a means to break an inefficient market. Admittedly a slightly selfish one, perhaps, but I can see the point. And a cabbie can go out and work of their own volition on a Saturday night. Whereas JJB Sports won't open the shop because you fancy working.

 

[Smurf]

Someone doing an 80hr week of mornings, days and nights can hardly be accused of dodging work.

How often do you think taxi drivers sit in ranks full of taxi's going nowhere earning nothing? Or driving for ages in amongst scores of other for hire taxi's looking for a street pick up?

I do think you've interestingly went from a complete deregulation free marketer position to rightful employment rights for some in a matter of hours...

And if the consumer is always just the one to be given top priority should that be extended to the NHS?

 

[egb_hibs]

Not really, because his point is the Edinburgh trade seems specifically not to work well so cheering on uber is a means to break an inefficient market. Admittedly a slightly selfish one, perhaps, but I can see the point. And a cabbie can go out and work of their own volition on a Saturday night. Whereas JJB Sports won't open the shop because you fancy working.

We are at cross purposes. I was teasing him, given his Labour credentials, over his approach to ruthless market efficiency in the taxi sector while getting all concerned over the plight of labour in this case.

 

[Smurf]

Not really, because his point is the Edinburgh trade seems specifically not to work well so cheering on uber is a means to break an inefficient market.

Again and I defy anyone to prove otherwise aside from the odd short period at the weekend getting a taxi on the streets of Edinburgh isn't difficult.

Maybe it would be better if pub/club closing times were staggered to avoid such queues.

And if Edinburgh Council gave proper protection to Edinburgh Taxi drivers (black cab and private hire) by investing some of the huge amounts taxi drivers pay Edinburgh Council for the privilege of doing their job into security?

 

[The__Proclaimer]

How often do you think taxi drivers sit in ranks full of taxi's going nowhere earning nothing? Or driving for ages in amongst scores of other for hire taxi's looking for a street pick up?

I do think you've interestingly went from a complete deregulation free marketer position to rightful employment rights for some in a matter of hours...

And if the consumer is always just the one to be given top priority should that be extended to the NHS?

Ah if only there was a time period where these idle drivers could make a living. One for the other thread.

Egb - for one who is prone to making facetious connections between examples this is a belter. Need to explain better to me how employers finding a loophole to pay zero pence to an employee who has chalked up 4000hrs of service then is off sick a week with flu is the same as a new taxi service making a council think twice about reducing their extortionate rates and a self employed driver offering a public service when the public actually wants it.

 

[Dub]

Ah if only there was a time period where these idle drivers could make a living. One for the other thread.

Egb - for one who is prone to making facetious connections between examples this is a belter. Need to explain better to me how employers finding a loophole to pay zero pence to an employee who has chalked up 4000hrs of service then is off sick a week with flu is the same as a new taxi service making a council think twice about reducing their extortionate rates and a self employed driver offering a public service when the public actually wants it.

In fairness, that's the first time you've mentioned that on this thread so how can Eeg be using that as a comparison basis

 

[The__Proclaimer]

In fairness, that's the first time you've mentioned that on this thread so how can Eeg be using that as a comparison basis

I said it in my first post in the thread.

 

[egb_hibs]

Ah if only there was a time period where these idle drivers could make a living. One for the other thread.

Egb - for one who is prone to making facetious connections between examples this is a belter. Need to explain better to me how employers finding a loophole to pay zero pence to an employee who has chalked up 4000hrs of service then is off sick a week with flu is the same as a new taxi service making a council think twice about reducing their extortionate rates and a self employed driver offering a public service when the public actually wants it.

You're jumping about a bit. Your previous posts I was trolling you over seemed clearly directed at taxi drivers, not the council. Like zero hours workers taxi drivers get nowt when there is no work, no holidays, no sick pay. I contrasted your hard nosed approach to them with your concern for zero hours workers, which I think is fair.

If you'd previously been bemoaning the inevitably destructive effect of the state involving itself in the taxi trade that would be another question, but it seemed to be the drivers who were on the end of your ire.

I don't think its facetious at all, and it certainly was not intended to be.

 

[The__Proclaimer]

You're jumping about a bit. Your previous posts I was trolling you over seemed clearly directed at taxi drivers, not the council. Like zero hours workers taxi drivers get nowt when there is no work, no holidays, no sick pay. I contrasted your hard nosed approach to them with your concern for zero hours workers, which I think is fair.

If you'd previously been bemoaning the inevitably destructive effect of the state involving itself in the taxi trade that would be another question, but it seemed to be the drivers who were on the end of your ire.

I don't think its facetious at all, and it certainly was not intended to be.

Facetious probably the wrong word.

In the taxi thread I did say I hope Edinburgh Council get a kick up the arse from uber too. 350 per week rent?? You'd think they were driving Bentley's around New York not black cabs in a city with a population of 500,000 in which the council supported bus service is phenomenal. You always get a shock when paying for a taxi in Glasgow, think the boy forgot to put on the meter - not Edinburgh cabbies fault it's 2/3 quid before you've even shut the door. The whole things a sham.

Anyway off topic. What's your opinion of 0hrs contracts?

 

[Dub]

I said it in my first post in the thread.

Ah yes. You just worded it differently and I didn't make the connection. Apologies.

 

[egb_hibs]

Facetious probably the wrong word.

In the taxi thread I did say I hope Edinburgh Council get a kick up the arse from uber too. 350 per week rent?? You'd think they were driving Bentley's around New York not black cabs in a city with a population of 500,000 in which the council supported bus service is phenomenal. You always get a shock when paying for a taxi in Glasgow, think the boy forgot to put on the meter - not Edinburgh cabbies fault it's 2/3 quid before you've even shut the door. The whole things a sham.

Anyway off topic. What's your opinion of 0hrs contracts?

i actually agree with you mostly

I think they have there place and provide jobs which would not otherwise exist, perhaps producing growth that allow permanent jobs. However, that is one dynamic that arises naturally from factors like seasonality, new business / startups, growth etc.

Scenario 2 where a transient workforce has an advantage over others (ie every pound earned is worth more in the long term home, no long term commitment is sought, piling in the hours for a finite period is what you're here to do etc) produces a situation where zero hours replace what might be permanent jobs. That one is not so good.

 

[HenryLB]

Again and I defy anyone to prove otherwise aside from the odd short period at the weekend getting a taxi on the streets of Edinburgh isn't difficult.

Maybe it would be better if pub/club closing times were staggered to avoid such queues.

And if Edinburgh Council gave proper protection to Edinburgh Taxi drivers (black cab and private hire) by investing some of the huge amounts taxi drivers pay Edinburgh Council for the privilege of doing their job into security?

The "odd short period at the weekend" is when they are most needed though. It's a bit like saying that the Titanic was only unsuitable for sailing for a short period. Before that there were many hours of pleasurable cruising (copyright Alan Partridge).

I'm joking, obviously, but if cab drivers won't work at weekend nights then they should put the fares up. I may be totally wrong but my suspicion is that unlike if you did that in London it won't make much difference because there seems to be a different mindset among Edinburgh drivers.

 

[Dub]

The "odd short period at the weekend" is when they are most needed though. It's a bit like saying that the Titanic was only unsuitable for sailing for a short period. Before that there were many hours of pleasurable cruising (copyright Alan Partridge).

I'm joking, obviously, but if cab drivers won't work at weekend nights then they should put the fares up. I may be totally wrong but my suspicion is that unlike if you did that in London it won't make much difference because there seems to be a different mindset among Edinburgh drivers.

Taxis are quite expensive in Edinburgh as it is. How would putting the fares up help introduce more drivers to the roads at the weekend? If as Kenny points out, some drivers don't work because of threats from customers at the weekend, putting the fares up would probably do little for the mood of the annoyed/annoying/threatening customer.

 

[egb_hibs]

It sounds like the most positive step would be for the state to feck off out of taking its skim from taxi drivers - no doubt stiffing hard working self employed people to fund some thought police, outreach teams for deaf Mongolian omnisexuals, trams or some other socially destructive end.

 

[HenryLB]

Taxis are quite expensive in Edinburgh as it is. How would putting the fares up help introduce more drivers to the roads at the weekend? If as Kenny points out, some drivers don't work because of threats from customers at the weekend, putting the fares up would probably do little for the mood of the annoyed/annoying/threatening customer.

I suspect that putting up the fares - or as EGB says above let them keep more of the cash - would encourage drivers to brave it simply because they'll make more money. I can't see another way, really. And it might make customers less pissed off as they won't have been waiting in a queue for 40 minutes.

I don't know what the cost difference is currently, but generally people are prepared to pay a bit more at weekends because its part of the 'treat' of a night out and I'd guess sharing is more common.

The alternative is I suppose to accept that you live in a city where people are too aggressive, or unable to handle a drink, that they can't even have a cab service provided for them. That would really depress me, personally.

 

[Dub]

I suspect that putting up the fares - or as EGB says above let them keep more of the cash - would encourage drivers to brave it simply because they'll make more money. I can't see another way, really. And it might make customers less pissed off as they won't have been waiting in a queue for 40 minutes.

I don't know what the cost difference is currently, but generally people are prepared to pay a bit more at weekends because its part of the 'treat' of a night out and I'd guess sharing is more common.

The alternative is I suppose to accept that you live in a city where people are too aggressive, or unable to handle a drink, that they can't even have a cab service provided for them. That would really depress me, personally.

I'm not suggesting the bit in bold. I'm not sure how you reached that but not to worry.

Personally I don't think there is a problem with getting taxis at the weekend but then I dont go clubbing and roll out the club at the same time as 400 other people who are also looking for a cab.

For what it's worth, when I was of the age where I would go up town with my mates, the situation was exactly as it is now. If you leave a club at 2 in the morning when it is closing and go to a taxi rank there is invariably a queue of like minded people so it isn't exactly a recent phenomenon.

 

[The__Proclaimer]

I'm not suggesting the bit in bold. I'm not sure how you reached that but not to worry.

Personally I don't think there is a problem with getting taxis at the weekend but then I dont go clubbing and roll out the club at the same time as 400 other people who are also looking for a cab.

For what it's worth, when I was of the age where I would go up town with my mates, the situation was exactly as it is now. If you leave a club at 2 in the morning when it is closing and go to a taxi rank there is invariably a queue of like minded people so it isn't exactly a recent phenomenon.

I've heard the 2am claim loads of times that's why I started the thread, that was half 11

 

[egb_hibs]

I've heard the 2am claim loads of times that's why I started the thread, that was half 11

To be fair theres a few 'Waves' - normal boozers are starting to close around that time, then late pubs and clubs at 2 and 4, no?

I do know what you mean though - one of the things I don't miss from younger days is massive treks home. Used to be a regular thing for me when I stayed at the opposite end of town from my pals.

The most epic I heard of was one of my mates who chummed a bird from corstorphine to cramond - then got sent on his way empty handed and had to walk back to liberton. Ooft.

 

[HenryLB]

I'm not suggesting the bit in bold. I'm not sure how you reached that but not to worry.

Well, the contention was that drivers don't want to do the shift not because of the crap money but because of the crap hassle. I'd say that if people are genuinely scared or fed up of working somewhere because they get abused then that workplace has a problem. And in this case that workplace is Edinburgh on a weekend night.

But if you want my opinion I doubt it's unrelated to the money. And to a general attitude of simply not wanting to work unsocial hours that doesn't exist elsewhere in the taxi trade.

Personally I don't think there is a problem with getting taxis at the weekend but then I dont go clubbing and roll out the club at the same time as 400 other people who are also looking for a cab.

I don't use foodbanks either but I'd concede they might be a problem that can be alleviated with some creative thought.

For what it's worth, when I was of the age where I would go up town with my mates, the situation was exactly as it is now. If you leave a club at 2 in the morning when it is closing and go to a taxi rank there is invariably a queue of like minded people so it isn't exactly a recent phenomenon.

Well yeah, there are worse things happening at sea, certainly. But it doesn't look to me like it would take much thought to improve the situation. And The Proclaimer has a point that an efficient taxi service provides a safety net for women getting home.

 

[Dub]

I've heard the 2am claim loads of times that's why I started the thread, that was half 11

To be honest, I've never noticed a problem getting cabs at that time of night although admittedly I dont spend a lot of time up town these days, preferring to stay in Stockaree 20 for my drinking etc.

 

[The__Proclaimer]

Walk home yoused to be the best bit - sing song in the chippy, stote down Leith Walk, alright girls where's youse been tonight, where youse going now, aw that party sounds good mind if I tag along?

Just want to get home to my bed pronto now.

 

[Dub]

Walk home yoused to be the best bit - sing song in the chippy, stote down Leith Walk, alright girls where's youse been tonight, where youse going now, aw that party sounds good mind if I tag along?

Just want to get home to my bed pronto now.

Ah yes, the golden days of your youth when a chippy and the chance of an unexpected bag off was always a bonus if you hadnt pulled already.

 

[egb_hibs]

To be honest, I've never noticed a problem getting cabs at that time of night although admittedly I dont spend a lot of time up town these days, preferring to stay in Stockaree 20 for my drinking etc.

If I was a taxi driver Stockbridge drunks are the kind id prefer to collect.

 

[Westside Green]

Well, the contention was that drivers don't want to do the shift not because of the crap money but because of the crap hassle. I'd say that if people are genuinely scared or fed up of working somewhere because they get abused then that workplace has a problem. And in this case that workplace is Edinburgh on a weekend night.

But if you want my opinion I doubt it's unrelated to the money. And to a general attitude of simply not wanting to work unsocial hours that doesn't exist elsewhere in the taxi trade.



I don't use foodbanks either but I'd concede they might be a problem that can be alleviated with some creative thought.



Well yeah, there are worse things happening at sea, certainly. But it doesn't look to me like it would take much thought to improve the situation. And The Proclaimer has a point that an efficient taxi service provides a safety net for women getting home.

The problem isn't confined to Edinburgh it's nationwide, pick up a copy of Taxi and Private Hire monthly and you'll find reports of the more serious assaults and murders of guys who just wanted a wage. Very little protection and usually no witnesses. I phoned the police after being threatened with a screwdriver and a hunting knife and it took them 20 minutes to arrive, when the town was deserted.

 

[Gunnerhibby]

Facetious probably the wrong word.

In the taxi thread I did say I hope Edinburgh Council get a kick up the arse from uber too. 350 per week rent?? You'd think they were driving Bentley's around New York not black cabs in a city with a population of 500,000 in which the council supported bus service is phenomenal. You always get a shock when paying for a taxi in Glasgow, think the boy forgot to put on the meter - not Edinburgh cabbies fault it's 2/3 quid before you've even shut the door. The whole things a sham.

Anyway off topic. What's your opinion of 0hrs contracts?

off topic again, sorry, thought maybe Smurf would have pointed this out.

Shaun, its not CEC that charge 350 per week rental on a taxi/PHC, its the taxi company. That's what THEY charge each driver. What the driver has to pay the Council is his licence fee, which varies depending on how long you take it for. PHC was around 70?? per year, up to 150 for 3 years. Not sure what the blacks are.
The taxi owners, sometimes they are also the drivers, have to pay the council for their plate as well a yearly Cab test(MOT but much structer). That can be a few grand.


(back on topic)
0 Hours is shi't, if you want to graft as much as you can to earn money

 

[The__Proclaimer]

off topic again, sorry, thought maybe Smurf would have pointed this out.

Shaun, its not CEC that charge 350 per week rental on a taxi/PHC, its the taxi company. That's what THEY charge each driver. What the driver has to pay the Council is his licence fee, which varies depending on how long you take it for. PHC was around 70?? per year, up to 150 for 3 years. Not sure what the blacks are.
The taxi owners, sometimes they are also the drivers, have to pay the council for their plate as well a yearly Cab test(MOT but much structer). That can be a few grand.


(back on topic)
0 Hours is shi't, if you want to graft as much as you can to earn money

Sounds like a whole lot of other folk get a cut of customers cash before the driver even turns his key. The whole black cab business is a racket.