what is 'rational'

egb_hibs

Private Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2002
... to you.

inspired by a conversation with haruki elsewhere. assuming an appreciation of darwin is our starting point for understanding the natural world, I find myself in a quandry...is rational our nice, self obsessed, humanist paralysis, or is it whatever makes you the last man standing?

I suspect Darwin, were he true to himself would go for the latter. I can't think of anything more irrational in fact, in (oh so) quietly going into the night pretending some metaphysical superiority to our less rational successors, who nonetheless we contrive to let succeed us, despite massive starting advantages. And even more so while simultaneously, if again oh so quietly, believing in the meaninglessness of our own superiority.

It's a funny old game.
 
Can reality be real? I'm of the opinion that it barely can be.

We live in a world that we know not the origin of. I've no doubt we never will. I'll go out on a limb here : The theory of God is indeed a possibility. But I, for one, am born without servility coursing through my veins. But I'll accept that possibility. Who knows? No-one, lest of all me.

It is, indeed Martin, a funny old game.

I'm agnostic right up to Judgement Day. What----ever.
 
I suspect Darwin, were he true to himself would go for the latter.

Darwin was a racist as they come.

At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilized state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as now between the negro or Australian and the gorilla.

Charles Darwin, "The Descent of Man", 2nd edition, New York, A L. Burt Co., 1874, p. 178

He was also a suspect observer of his fellow man,

Darwin's racist side showed its effect in much of his writing and observations. For example, he openly set out his racist prejudices while describing the natives of Tierra del Fuego whom he saw on a long voyage he set out on in 1871. He described the natives as living creatures "wholly nude, submerged in dyes, eating what they find just like wild animals, uncontrolled, cruel to everybody out of their tribe, taking pleasure in torturing their enemies, offering bloody sacrifices, killing their children, ill-treating their wives, full of awkward superstitions". Whereas according to the researcher W. P. Snow, the Tierra del Fuegians were "fine powerful looking fellows; they were very fond of their children; some of their artifacts were ingenious; they recognised some sort of rights over property; and they accepted the authority of several of the oldest women."


Darwin's Racism (by Harun Yahya) - Media Monitors Network

As for what is "rational" it's an academic state of mind - a position assumed to weigh evidence whilst attempting to look upon with the least prejudice possible. Some people are better at than others because humans are pretty irrational creatures.
 
Darwin was a racist as they come.

At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilized state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as now between the negro or Australian and the gorilla.

Charles Darwin, "The Descent of Man", 2nd edition, New York, A L. Burt Co., 1874, p. 178

He was also a suspect observer of his fellow man,

Darwin's racist side showed its effect in much of his writing and observations. For example, he openly set out his racist prejudices while describing the natives of Tierra del Fuego whom he saw on a long voyage he set out on in 1871. He described the natives as living creatures "wholly nude, submerged in dyes, eating what they find just like wild animals, uncontrolled, cruel to everybody out of their tribe, taking pleasure in torturing their enemies, offering bloody sacrifices, killing their children, ill-treating their wives, full of awkward superstitions". Whereas according to the researcher W. P. Snow, the Tierra del Fuegians were "fine powerful looking fellows; they were very fond of their children; some of their artifacts were ingenious; they recognised some sort of rights over property; and they accepted the authority of several of the oldest women."


Darwin's Racism (by Harun Yahya) - Media Monitors Network

As for what is "rational" it's an academic state of mind - a position assumed to weigh evidence whilst attempting to look upon with the least prejudice possible. Some people are better at than others because humans are pretty irrational creatures.

Well cherry-picked.

You're full of shit Snoots. You're the ultimate bitch. Kiss me.
 
Well cherry-picked.

You're full of shit Snoots. You're the ultimate bitch. Kiss me.

aaaahhhhhkv9.gif
 
Well cherry-picked.

Sorry - what do you mean by "cherry-picked". Darwin was a man of his time, a time in which white-British men were seen as the apex of civilisation.

Can you show me stuff which proves that Darwin saw the human-race as equals?

You're full of shit Snoots.

No I'm not - I'm just off the fuckin' pan.

You're the ultimate bitch. Kiss me.

Anytime honey, anytime.

joan20collins.jpg
 
Well cherry-picked.
isn't it darwin fanboys who cherry pick?i never quite understand how the fact that darwin's theory is believed up until we don't like it's implications, equates to scientific rigour.

Can you show me stuff which proves that Darwin saw the human-race as equals?
tbf Snoots, as you know, but some of the fanboys blanche from, within a Darwinian frame of reference that statement is no different than asking whether Darwin saw all dogs as equal or all horses, ie it is a statement absent the moral content that religious and philosophical thought otherwise brings to it.
 
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isn't it darwin fanboys who cherry pick?i never quite understand how the fact that darwin's theory is believed up until we don't like it's implications, equates to scientific rigour.

tbf Snoots, as you know, but some of the fanboys blanche from, within a Darwinian frame of reference that statement is no different than asking whether Darwin saw all dogs as equal or all horses, ie it is a statement absent the moral content that religious and philosophical thought otherwise brings to it.

Is English your first language ?
 
is rational our nice, self obsessed, humanist paralysis, or is it whatever makes you the last man standing?

Are you implying that, if we all acted on what are most basic, human impulses were, we'd all be out killing each other?
 
No. Not unless it was useful to do so.

Its just, our base urges tell us to do what's useful for our species, rather than ourselves. Just like every other animal. Wolves don't kill each other, for example, because it'd be detrimental to the pack, and any wolf starting a fight would be chastised by the others.

Its how we evolved.
 
Its just, our base urges tell us to do what's useful for our species, rather than ourselves. Just like every other animal. Wolves don't kill each other, for example, because it'd be detrimental to the pack, and any wolf starting a fight would be chastised by the others.

Its how we evolved.

Trust a lemur to believe we evolved from wolves.

:giggle:
 
Its just, our base urges tell us to do what's useful for our species, rather than ourselves. Just like every other animal. Wolves don't kill each other, for example, because it'd be detrimental to the pack, and any wolf starting a fight would be chastised by the others.

Its how we evolved.
Arrant nonsense. All over nature animals attack others of the same species where they are outside the pack, and very often within the pack also. Males will routinely kill the offspring of other males and so on.

As for homo sapiens, completely wiped out homo erectus, and prior to us inventing civilisation some analysis suggests around 60% of people died at the hands of others.
 
Arrant nonsense. All over nature animals attack others of the same species where they are outside the pack, and very often within the pack also. Males will routinely kill the offspring of other males and so on.

As for homo sapiens, completely wiped out homo erectus, and prior to us inventing civilisation some analysis suggests around 60% of people died at the hands of others.

Survival of the fittest pal.

Natural selection.

It's how evolution works.

Home sapiens didn't 'wipe out' homo erectus. Homo sapiens were better fitted to survive. You may as well say every species wiped out it's predecessors.

Although only humans do genocide.
 
Arrant nonsense. All over nature animals attack others of the same species where they are outside the pack, and very often within the pack also. Males will routinely kill the offspring of other males and so on.

As for homo sapiens, completely wiped out homo erectus, and prior to us inventing civilisation some analysis suggests around 60% of people died at the hands of others.

Aye I was just regurgitating something I read ages ago and probably mostly forgot.

Do you post this fuzzy-headed poppycock elsewhere or is it just Hibs fans you have it in for?
 
egb, do you honestly believe there is no rationale behind principles like morality or altruism?

You make it sound as if selfishness is rational, but it only appears that way if you ignore the obvious benefits of (for example) community and mutualism.

As for Darwin... as far as I'm aware, he didn't create Social Darwinism. It was Herbert Spencer who interpreted Natural Selection as being "Survival of the Fittest" (his definition having further social and ethical consequence than Darwin's biology lesson).

I have a question for you - since time began we have had irrational explanations for things we do not fully understand. Religion obviously provided many such explanations, but as we have learned more about how the universe (and indeed our own body) works, we have cast them aside in favour of scientific ones. We know that the Earth travels round the Sun, rather than being a glowing deity in the sky. We know that a person's psychology determines their actions rather than whether they are "good" or "evil", and when it comes to ethical decisions, we have thousands of years of philosophy to help us make them, not just one book.

My question is this: rational explanations have replaced many religious ones, but can you give me any examples of a religious explanation replacing a scientific one? Doesn't religion (and irrationality in general) merely fill in the blanks to questions we haven't answered yet?
 
He bought into it though.

That's your opinion, but accusations of racism levelled at Darwin sound to me like nothing more than desperate attempts to discredit a theory which is at odds with religious scripture, by means of Ad Hominem and guilt by association.

Historical context is important too. The language used by Darwin in the passage you quoted is typical of the time, and is certainly no worse than that used by say, Abraham Lincoln. This was the 1800s, after all.

Popular beliefs in the 1800s:

Whites, Blacks, American Indians, and Asians are all different species.
The races are static and created by God, and should thus never be mixed.
There are superior and inferior races and the superior whites have the right to dominate the inferior blacks and Indians.
There are distinct delineations between the races.
Different races are not related to each other.
Interbreeding of races leads to degeneration.
God originally created civilization and whites have stayed true to God, thus maintaining civilization, but the darker races have degenerated and lost civilization as they have become more savage and further from the word of God.
Darker races are descendants of Canaan (Ham's Curse), the darker their skin the more inherently sinful they are.

Darwin's View of Race:

People cannot be classified as different species.
All races are related and have a common ancestry.
All people come from "savage" origins.
The different races have much more in common than was widely believed.
The mental capabilities of all races are virtually the same and there is greater variation within races than between races.
Different races of people can interbreed and there is no concern for ill effects.
Culture, not biology, accounted for the greatest differences between the races.
Races are not distinct, but rather they blend together.


The Mis-portrayal of Darwin as a Racist By R G Price - June 24, 2006
 
That's your opinion, but accusations of racism levelled at Darwin sound to me like nothing more than desperate attempts to discredit a theory which is at odds with religious scripture, by means of Ad Hominem and guilt by association.

Historical context is important too. The language used by Darwin in the passage you quoted is typical of the time, and is certainly no worse than that used by say, Abraham Lincoln. This was the 1800s, after all.

Popular beliefs in the 1800s:

Whites, Blacks, American Indians, and Asians are all different species.
The races are static and created by God, and should thus never be mixed.
There are superior and inferior races and the superior whites have the right to dominate the inferior blacks and Indians.
There are distinct delineations between the races.
Different races are not related to each other.
Interbreeding of races leads to degeneration.
God originally created civilization and whites have stayed true to God, thus maintaining civilization, but the darker races have degenerated and lost civilization as they have become more savage and further from the word of God.
Darker races are descendants of Canaan (Ham's Curse), the darker their skin the more inherently sinful they are.

Darwin's View of Race:

People cannot be classified as different species.
All races are related and have a common ancestry.
All people come from "savage" origins.
The different races have much more in common than was widely believed.
The mental capabilities of all races are virtually the same and there is greater variation within races than between races.
Different races of people can interbreed and there is no concern for ill effects.
Culture, not biology, accounted for the greatest differences between the races.
Races are not distinct, but rather they blend together.


The Mis-portrayal of Darwin as a Racist By R G Price - June 24, 2006

good post Scorpio and really interesting link - thanks for that

I think the conclusion there sums it up well if i could quote a bit for emphasis

Opponents of evolution, in desperation, use any means to try to slander Charles Darwin and the theory of evolution. No doubt many of these people truly believe their own accusations, but they do so out of a desire to see evolutionary theory in a negative light and out of a desire to believe that it is harmful to society.

The underlying idea, however, that Nazism and the Holocaust were products of a divergence from "traditional Judeo-Christian values", influenced by the rise of "Darwinian thinking", is not only completely false, but completely the opposite of the truth. The belief that Nazi policy was a product of "new Darwinian thinking" can only exist when people are ignorant of the history of anti-Semitism, racism, slavery, and genocide in Western Civilization, often associated with Christianity.

Indeed, Nazism and the Holocaust were expressions of traditional values with the use of modern technology. The Holocaust follows a clear pattern of events in European civilization. The Holocaust shows us the tragic results of traditional human behavior empowered by powerful new technology. The immorality of the Holocaust was not new, rather the ability to carry it out is what was new.
 
Aye I was just regurgitating something I read ages ago and probably mostly forgot.

Do you post this fuzzy-headed poppycock elsewhere or is it just Hibs fans you have it in for?
your posting regurgitated half forgotten flim flam that doesn't stand up to half a second's scrutiny, and I'm fuzzy headed?

what are you on about having it in for hibs fans? you're not another troll are you?
 
egb, do you honestly believe there is no rationale behind principles like morality or altruism?
rationales don't have to be rational. they frequently aren't.

professor dawkins does a good job of explaining the delusion of altruism, starting from darwin.

You make it sound as if selfishness is rational, but it only appears that way if you ignore the obvious benefits of (for example) community and mutualism.
No, I argue that there is useful and not useful, for survival and prosperity. sometimes what is useful would be individual 'selfishness', sometimes it would be a communal approach.

As for Darwin... as far as I'm aware, he didn't create Social Darwinism. It was Herbert Spencer who interpreted Natural Selection as being "Survival of the Fittest" (his definition having further social and ethical consequence than Darwin's biology lesson).
it was championed by his close followers and relatives, but it's kernel is in his own work, which provided a massive fillip to preexisting liberal ideas. and why not, it's the inevitable consequences of it. like eugenics, it is discredited for irrational moral reasons, not because of failures of logic or science.

I have a question for you - since time began we have had irrational explanations for things we do not fully understand. Religion obviously provided many such explanations, but as we have learned more about how the universe (and indeed our own body) works, we have cast them aside in favour of scientific ones. We know that the Earth travels round the Sun, rather than being a glowing deity in the sky. We know that a person's psychology determines their actions rather than whether they are "good" or "evil", and when it comes to ethical decisions, we have thousands of years of philosophy to help us make them, not just one book.

My question is this: rational explanations have replaced many religious ones, but can you give me any examples of a religious explanation replacing a scientific one? Doesn't religion (and irrationality in general) merely fill in the blanks to questions we haven't answered yet?
you are confusing two different things. reason is, as I keep saying, a tool, and great for the purpose of scientific understanding. religion's purpose is the 'why' of things, science's is the 'how'.

about moral ends, science and indeed reason has nothing to say.

in terms of morality and indeed the human condition, know rationalist has ever got past the argument between St Augustine and Pelagious in the 4th century; and pretty much all of western philosophy and politics boils down to it.

as for;

"We know that a person's psychology determines their actions rather than whether they are "good" or "evil", and when it comes to ethical decisions, "

That's wrong on each point. We know nothing such, and religions don't attribute people as good or evil, but actions and intentions. You can try and replace the words, but I doubt you'll get far without similar labels - that's if you try and keep the idea of morality.

Of course, as we have already established, there is really only useful and not useful, if you're taking nature as your starting point.
 
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That's your opinion, but accusations of racism levelled at Darwin sound to me like nothing more than desperate attempts to discredit a theory which is at odds with religious scripture, by means of Ad Hominem and guilt by association.
Some may use it that way, but you're in danger of doing the same if you try and exculpate Darwin because of the truth of his science. Not only that social darwinism is the logical extrapolation of it. It is those who elevate darwin into a semi-religious figure, and evolution into a semi religous doctrine who find themselves in knots trying to deny that.

For me the science is true; and what social darwinism suggests is rational. But i reject the latter because i'm not obsessed with reason as an end versus a means.

Historical context is important too. The language used by Darwin in the passage you quoted is typical of the time, and is certainly no worse than that used by say, Abraham Lincoln. This was the 1800s, after all.
But darwin's views were based on his science.
 
good post Scorpio and really interesting link - thanks for that

I think the conclusion there sums it up well if i could quote a bit for emphasis
Darwin also said;

"At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace, the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes, as Professor Schaaffhausen has remarked, will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilized state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as now between the Negro or Australian and the gorilla."

He also thought the likes us racially inferior to the english;

"Given a land originally peopled by a thousand Saxons and a thousand
Celts – and in a dozen generations five-sixths of the population would
be Celts, but five-sixths of the property, of the power, of the
intellect, would belong to the one-sixth of Saxons that remained. In
the eternal “struggle for existence”, it would be the inferior and less
favoured race that had prevailed – and prevailed by virtue not of its
good qualities but of its faults."

EDIT: in fact in context, it seems to be irish rather than scottish celts he considers inferior;

"The careless, squalid, unaspiring Irishman, fed on potatoes, living in a pig-stye, doting on a superstition, multiplies like rabbits or ephemera; – the frugal, foreseeing, self-respecting, ambitious Scot, stern in his morality, spiritual in his faith, sagacious and disciplined in his intelligence, passes his best years in struggle and in celibacy, marries late, and leaves few behind him" - eugenics 101 that is. Also, ironically, a forecast in a way, of the fate of many of his ardent admirers in our own day and age.

the greeks meanwhile, have been racially degraded by, among other things, extreme sensuality, are now 'corrupt to the very core' and thus are not responsible for the 'superiority' of western european despite their contribution to the ancient world.

still, he was of his times; just like those who persecuted Galileo.


see chapter 5 of said tome for a general treatise on what has become known as social darwinism and also a rationale for eugenics.

As for the 'conclusion' you view favourably, it's far too reductionist.

Certainly historical anti-judaism in Christian and Pagan europe helped provide the context for the holocaust, but it's unique dynamic was supplied by the scientific racism and eugenics which had proceeded from darwin's insights to dominate liberal and socialist thinking until the nazi's mayhem discredited it.

It's only with scientific racism that you need to exterminate the filthy genes that contaminate your stock; this is why the nazi's extermination plan was unique; after millenia of hatred of the jews based on religion, there's was a hatred of jews based on biology. so to did these principles extend to purging other contaminants of the gene pool such as the disabled.

the latter principle is of course partially resurrected today, but done in utero to protect our sensibilities. Eugenics will be back big time this century.
 
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accusations of racism levelled at Darwin sound to me like nothing more than desperate attempts to discredit a theory which is at odds with religious scripture, by means of Ad Hominem and guilt by association.

...and that is your opinion.

I've not got a problem with Evolution, it's a fact.

Saying the only alternative is religious scripture, which is obviously not fact, is just nonsense.

I've yet to see proof of the natural selection portion of Darwinism, which is the part that naturally leads onto racism/eugenics.
 
...and that is your opinion.

I've not got a problem with Evolution, it's a fact.

Saying the only alternative is religious scripture, which is obviously not fact, is just nonsense.

I've yet to see proof of the natural selection portion of Darwinism, which is the part that naturally leads onto racism/eugenics.
...and natural selection is darwin's contribution. evolution goes back as far as ancient greece iirc. or perhaps it was rome. a long time ago anyway.

like you (iirc) i'd like to see more time devoted to alternative evolutionary mechanisms; something that's got lost because of the war of dogmatic idiots.

chaos theory based ideas strike me as more plausible. the incremental accretion of loads of useless-in-the-intervening-millenia changes (though their are rationalisations for it, though ill supported by the fossil record) seems to me entirely possible - based on the correct imho interpretation that it's not what is advantageous that counts, but what is not disadvantageous - but less likely than chaos based models. which also better explain huge leaps forward.

from the far end of the chaos scale - in the realm of super-complexity, shit just happens - to the more grounded; slow propagation of recessive genes, hit critical mass with recessive/recessive pairings suddenly causing a bang of mass activation - i just think it fits what we know better.