Were the Lexiters right ?

[egb_hibs]

As the EU drifts from capitalist progressivism towards the populist far right, the remainer and brexiteer stereotypes are looking increasingly ironic. Did the small but consistent lexit crew end up being the only ones to be somewhat vindicated ?

The EU is turning into a Remainer nightmare

unherd.com

Ps for anyone who doubts where the real centre of gravity is in terms of establishment propaganda, this is an interesting little snippet:

“On Monday, EU Parliament President Metsola met with 50 pan-European NGOs to thank them for pushing “EU values” ahead of the elections. This followed an announcement that the EU has signed Partnership Agreements with more than 500 NGOs — many at national level — all tasked with promoting EU values ahead of the forthcoming elections.”

I don’t know who these NGOs are, but is this really the role of charities etc?

 

[Findlayhibby]

I voted to leave.But I wanted a Lexit if that’s what you call it.In or out I doubt we’d be any better off because money runs the whole thing. I mean are the Greeks and Portuguese benefitting from staying?How happy are the French and Germans right now?How long before we see more riots in Paris and the rise of the Adf in Germany? I notice the Swedes and Norwegians never complain about not being tied to the EURO.

 

[Archie]

I think it's a mistake to immediately make the leap from there are issues in the EU to the Brexeteers were right. Tbf remainers do the same with any issues here framed as 'we were right'.

No political or constitutional arrangements are without problems and the idea that they ever could be is the work of snake oil salesmen.

That said, there are issues in the EU. Someone here nailed it when they said that remainers refer to the EU as if it was a 'workers cooperative' when it certainly is not.

But when I look at the world and the pressures we face I think we would be better in than out. I've also read commentators say they EU benefitted from Britain being a member as a counterweight against the more centralising proposals and the France/Germany axis.

Finally, the point on the promotion of 'European values'. Is that as sinister as portrayed? I read lots hear about 'Scottish values' and the Scottish Government's promotion of them. Is that so different?

 

[egb_hibs]

I think it's a mistake to immediately make the leap from there are issues in the EU to the Brexeteers were right. Tbf remainers do the same with any issues here framed as 'we were right'.

No political or constitutional arrangements are without problems and the idea that they ever could be is the work of snake oil salesmen.

That said, there are issues in the EU. Someone here nailed it when they said that remainers refer to the EU as if it was a 'workers cooperative' when it certainly is not.

But when I look at the world and the pressures we face I think we would be better in than out. I've also read commentators say the EU benefitted from Britain being a member as a counterweight against the more centralising proposals and the France/Germany axis.

When I said ‘right’ I mean that they have sort of got what they wanted.

While acknowledging again that these are stereotypes to an extent;

- the capitalist left of the Remain cause are looking at an EU becoming full of hard rightists and looking at Rwanda style schemes, while Britain is poised to elect the capitalist left to power.

- the brexiteer right are looking at an EU becoming full of hard rightists and looking at Rwanda style schemes, while Britain is poised to elect the capitalist left to power.

The lexiteers even though they share much with the capitalist left seem to escape with least egg on their face.

Finally, the point on the promotion of 'European values'. Is that as sinister as portrayed? I read lots hear about 'Scottish values' and the Scottish Government's promotion of them. Is that so different?

It doesn’t say European values, it says EU values.

 

[egb_hibs]

I voted to leave.But I wanted a Lexit if that’s what you call it.In or out I doubt we’d be any better off because money runs the whole thing. I mean are the Greeks and Portuguese benefitting from staying?How happy are the French and Germans right now?How long before we see more riots in Paris and the rise of the Adf in Germany? I notice the Swedes and Norwegians never complain about not being tied to the EURO.

I think you are right that in or out makes little economic difference in the medium to long term.

I also think you are right that the proletariat across the continent are getting a bit miffed at it all. They are turning to the latter day workers radical parties of the right in response. While I appreciate there are guys like you around Moaty, most of the left have merged with global capitalist priorties and so this is the form it takes. Tbf you have to an extent yourself with open borders and identity politics etc, but you still have one foot in the old camp even if it’s incompatible with where your other foot is.

 

[Archie]

It doesn’t say European values, it says EU values.

Point taken, but I think my observation stands.

 

[Wishbone]

I think it's a mistake to immediately make the leap from there are issues in the EU to the Brexeteers were right. Tbf remainers do the same with any issues here framed as 'we were right'.

No political or constitutional arrangements are without problems and the idea that they ever could be is the work of snake oil salesmen.

That said, there are issues in the EU. Someone here nailed it when they said that remainers refer to the EU as if it was a 'workers cooperative' when it certainly is not.

But when I look at the world and the pressures we face I think we would be better in than out. I've also read commentators say they EU benefitted from Britain being a member as a counterweight against the more centralising proposals and the France/Germany axis.

Finally, the point on the promotion of 'European values'. Is that as sinister as portrayed? I read lots hear about 'Scottish values' and the Scottish Government's promotion of them. Is that so different?

My take on this has always been:
We originally joined the "common market" as it was known then. It was originally a' coal and steel community agreement' ) with European countries joining together to set up secure trading agreements. We were stopped from joining for years as one vote against was enough for veto. De Gaulle was that one vote for years because of his hatred for Britain and the fact that the Allies had liberated France. After he went Britain applied again (after a referendum in1975) and the'Yes' vote was overwhelming. For me, since then, this trading 'club' has been steered mercilessly by Germany and France to become the Federation of Europe. Germany finally gets to 'rule' Europe with France under the illusion that they are 'co-leaders'. It has strayed from trade into every part of life. Some stuff they seem to have got right but at the cost of individual countries giving up the right to decide anything for themselves.

All of the above shows how I have been influenced over the years by input from my late father and his peers, documentaries, internal squabbles and the descent into the "gravy train" for MEPs.

This will look to many as being a politically naive view of important events. There will be lots of detail missing here and lots of differing viewpoints and I wouldn't bet money on all my observations standing scrutiny. I have met many folk who think along the same lines as myself and also met many folk who think I'm a knob. I haven't studied the subject in any analytical sense, I just feel that today's path is nowhere near it's original intentions. The joining criterias has been severly relaxed to let in lame ducks, like Greece, simply to swell membership. These lame ducks would feel obligated to Germany for their induction and take their side accordingly.

I don't have a blanket dislike for all things Germanic - although they did bomb our chippy.

 

[EH17 Jimmy]

I mind when Marine Le Pen and the Front National were described by a former Fench president as having a near 'communist' manifesto.

Folk are fed up of the same shite. I read a lot on here about (enter party name) being elected on 30/40% of the vote which means most folk didn't vote for what they get.

The last euro elections after we left had 51% of the electorate turn out.

Remove the euro sceptic parties and those elected are there through a minority.

As for workers rights I've posted many times about the Viking and Laval ruling in the European court. The EU is for business and money. Fuck all to do with citizens.

 

[Smurf]

Chinese President in Europe and he visits France, Hungary & Serbia. No coincidence I'd say.

 

[egb_hibs]

Point taken, but I think my observation stands.

Well its quite different to be fair. If there is such a thing as European values they are not likely to be the same as EU values. In effect we have 500 NGOs promoting a political structure that is entwined with global capitalism and a specific set of policy agendas.

 

[Archie]

Well its quite different to be fair. If there is such a thing as European values they are not likely to be the same as EU values. In effect we have 500 NGOs promoting a political structure that is entwined with global capitalism and a specific set of policy agendas.

Well by EU values I take it to be the things that govern membership: democracy; rule of law ( stretched to the limit by Poland and Hungary); solidarity; equality etc. etc. Which pretty much are European values. You could argue their soft capitalism also fits that, but I acknowledge that's more contentious.

 

[EH17 Jimmy]

Archie regarding the rule of law.

What happens if said citizens of Poland and Hungary don't want those laws?

Have they to be forced into accepting those laws?

Remember it wasn't to long ago said nations were forced into laws that the soviet union forced onto them.

Would that make the EU the new soviet Russia?

 

[egb_hibs]

Well by EU values I take it to be the things that govern membership: democracy; rule of law ( stretched to the limit by Poland and Hungary); solidarity; equality etc. etc. Which pretty much are European values. You could argue their soft capitalism also fits that, but I acknowledge that's more contentious.

Aren't Poland and Hungary European?

Not sure that Poland has stretched democracy anymore than anywhere else, although Donald Tusk seems to have a bit of the old progressive authoritarianism about him. I'm not really sure Hungary has either although I know there is a lot of noise about them - but I've become cautious that this can simply mean not being on message.

I don't know what vague terms like solidarity means here and equality as a concept has been so bent out of shape that who knows what that means either.

In plain English terms neither are what one would necessarily associate with the EU.

Tbh I suspect what you mean is you broadly approve of the EU and thus equate it with European values ? There's nothing wrong with that other than making that equation. It's getting increasingly obvious there is much disenchantment with the failing political philosophy the outgoing EU represents. I'm not sure the looming far right tinged one looks any better either.

 

[Archie]

Archie regarding the rule of law.

What happens if said citizens of Poland and Hungary don't want those laws?

Have they to be forced into accepting those laws?

Remember it wasn't to long ago said nations were forced into laws that the soviet union forced onto them.

Would that make the EU the new soviet Russia?

Ultimately they could be kicked out. Unlikely, but not impossible. I'd struggle to see circumstances where, say, there was a military coup that EU membership would be sustained. If you believe the EU narrative!

 

[Archie]

Aren't Poland and Hungary European?

Not sure that Poland has stretched democracy anymore than anywhere else, although Donald Tusk seems to have a bit of the old progressive authoritarianism about him. I'm not really sure Hungary has either although I know there is a lot of noise about them - but I've become cautious that this can simply mean not being on message.

I don't know what vague terms like solidarity means here and equality as a concept has been so bent out of shape that who knows what that means either.

In plain English terms neither are what one would necessarily associate with the EU.

Tbh I suspect what you mean is you broadly approve of the EU and thus equate it with European values ? There's nothing wrong with that other than making that equation. It's getting increasingly obvious there is much disenchantment with the failing political philosophy the outgoing EU represents. I'm not sure the looming far right tinged one looks any better either.

Poland risked losing funding because of blurring between government and judiciary. EU to drop rule-of-law dispute with Poland

 

[whiskas]

Lexit? Are Leith planning on regaining independence from Edinburgh?

 

[Archie]

Lexit? Are Leith planning on regaining independence from Edinburgh?

It's only been 103 years! Bring back the Boundary Bar!

 

[Bangkokhibby]

It's only been 103 years! Bring back the Boundary Bar!

Oh is it gone? Went in there a lot.

 

[egb_hibs]

Poland risked losing funding because of blurring between government and judiciary. EU to drop rule-of-law dispute with Poland

I wonder if they’ll be so irked by Tusk’s own dubious actions, or whether they’ll be ok with as he’s their man. As I say, EU is no exemplar of democracy!

 

[Archie]

I wonder if they’ll be so irked by Tusk’s own dubious actions, or whether they’ll be ok with as he’s their man. As I say, EU is no exemplar of democracy!

I suspect they are just fine with him!

 

[EH17 Jimmy]

I wonder if they’ll be so irked by Tusk’s own dubious actions, or whether they’ll be ok with as he’s their man. As I say, EU is no exemplar of democracy!

Did Tusk no close down a news station as soon as he got the job he wanted?

Very statist.

 

[HaarlemShuffler]

Archie regarding the rule of law.

What happens if said citizens of Poland and Hungary don't want those laws?

Have they to be forced into accepting those laws?

Remember it wasn't to long ago said nations were forced into laws that the soviet union forced onto them.

Would that make the EU the new soviet Russia?

Difference between EU and soviet setup is any country can leave the EU whenever they choose?

 

[Archie]

Did Tusk no close down a news station as soon as he got the job he wanted?

Very statist.

A wee bit context. Maybe not quite as Jimmy presents it!

Tusk takes state broadcaster off air in effort to depoliticise public media | Euractiv

The public broadcaster in Poland was taken off air, and the heads of TVP state broadcaster and Polish Radio were replaced on Wednesday noon as the new government started the depoliticisation of public media, which the previous government still controlled.

www.euractiv.com

 

[EH17 Jimmy]

Then get punished for it .

Maybe Poles and Hungarians still remember being told how they were to live their lives though.

And don't want to live through that again.

As was posted earlier. If the EU was for trade only it wouldn't have been a problem.

But it's not. It's a pro business entity.

Led by Ursula thingy. Whom no one in the 27 nations voted for.

And the point about it's a nations elected representatives who take that vote then the fact that under 50% of the electorate voted in Eu elections makes a mockery of the Brussels dictate.

The corruption is massive in the 'elected' eu dafties.

Of course if a nation votes against something Brussels wants to implement then hey let's have more votes until folk DO vote the correct way.

And bribing voters because if they don't vote the way they are meant to then cash will be withheld.

That's not democracy in any way shape or form.

It's corrupt to it's very core.

 

[EH17 Jimmy]

A wee bit context. Maybe not quite as Jimmy presents it!

Tusk takes state broadcaster off air in effort to depoliticise public media | Euractiv

The public broadcaster in Poland was taken off air, and the heads of TVP state broadcaster and Polish Radio were replaced on Wednesday noon as the new government started the depoliticisation of public media, which the previous government still controlled.

www.euractiv.com

So Tusk wanted a return to a BBC type broadcaster who will do as they are told?

And where were all the journalist wailing about other journalists being silenced?

Oops silly me. They were the 'wrong' type of journalists

 

[Archie]

So Tusk wanted a return to a BBC type broadcaster who will do as they are told?

And where were all the journalist wailing about other journalists being silenced?

Oops silly me. They were the 'wrong' type of journalists

I think the issue is that prior to Tusk they were doing what the government told them.

 

[egb_hibs]

I think the issue is that prior to Tusk they were doing what the government told them.

Is Tusk really your traditional EU man?

Donald Tusk: mass migration is a 'civilisational threat'

Donald Tusk, Poland’s new prime minister, said mass migration was a civilisational threat in a Sunday speech. “Please believe me – and I say this also looking at what is happening in the US today – this is a question of the survival of our Western civilisation,” Tusk said, according to Notes...

unherd.com

Meanwhile he’s not exactly democratic or liberal generally;

Poland pushes ahead with hardline hate speech law

Merely a year ago, it would have seemed unthinkable that the government of a country like Poland should propose a law that would put people behind bars for hate speech against LGBT people. Yet that’s exactly what happened late last month. In an effort to make good on the new centre-left Polish...

unherd.com

Donald Tusk is a menace to Poland

His ‘liberal’ government is trampling over democratic norms.

www.spiked-online.com

I mean you can say you believe he’s justified for trampling democratic norms and implementing illiberal laws, because you agree with his values. I mean that’s what the other side do too, but it’s a position. But it’s a bit of a stretch to say it’s much different than them in terms of democracy.

With the best will in the world that’s not the best ground to make the case for the EU, I mean they’re simply not very democratic by design.

Anyway you know my view on this Archie; illiberal progressives have spawned illiberal reactionaries. We are now in a spiral and it ain’t ending any time soon.