egb_hibs
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"There is undoubtedly a segregation and veiled racism in the British indie music biz"
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What an article. Of pish. We should have more black folk in music because they 'gave' us music, wtf?
Who's stopping non white folk from playing in bands?
Shirley, we should have folk in music that are in music because they are into or good at music?
Maybe they've got more of a sunny disposition and don't need to moan about everything which would preclude them from joining/starting indie bands...
Who's stopping non white folk from playing in bands?
Shirley, we should have folk in music that are in music because they are into or good at music?
Maybe they've got more of a sunny disposition and don't need to moan about everything which would preclude them from joining/starting indie bands...
FTJT
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Well, it's a guest piece from Pete Brown, who probably has some right to chip in. And it's certainly true that the most high profile black indie type of the last few years (Kele Okereke) has been a popular hate figure without anyone putting forward a convincing reason why. I've also seen black lads at gigs get a lot of funny looks (maybe less so in London but even then).
I think it's fair comment.
I think it's fair comment.
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I'm moaning about positive descrimination which I think this piece ultimately leads to.
Do you think that bands would descriminate en mass against non whites?
There may be racists in the British music scene but it's so counter to most musical movements imo to be mental to claim that it's inherrent in anything other than movements that are specifically racist.
FTJT
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not sure that's what he's saying at all. I think his point is more that multi-ethnic bands tend to get the sharp end these days - less likely to get signed, booked etc. which i believe is true.
no, but I'd bet there's plenty of people in indie bands who imagine a band to be 'four white guys' and would see it any exception as a gimmick.
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I don't know if they do but, the evidence would back your assertion up in that indie bands don't have many non whites in them.
Well, then that's their problem at an individual level, imo. If a band audition foilk and discriminate against a perfectly capable or superior black candidate purely because they don't fit the image then aye that's racist. But if folk start a band with their mates and none of their mates happen to be black then there is no issue, which I reckon is the case in the most part. I just cannot see this racism.
Mind you, pop music is pretty image driven but I assume we're not including this as this is about indie music. Add to that the fact that non whites are pretty well represented in pop.
I'm saying I've never met a musical racist (sounds like a chas n dave song) that wasn't a nazi punk. Music is inclusive and always respects & acknowledges its roots & influences in my experience.
FTJT
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I suspect the first part (about auditions) is something which has occurred and does occur on a bit of a scale, and the second part is the separate-but-related criticism that 'indie music' these days is mostly made by anaemic middle-class lads who're afraid to talk to the black people in their school.
And 'indie music', as used here, is still subject to A&R and labels - for who the image of an 'indie band' that'll do well is four white guys.
:laff:
music isn't actually like the Force - you aren't imbued with some kind of spirit that carries views and awareness with it. You can be a competent musician and have Daily Mail prejudices. Like Morrissey (possibly).
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I don't think that does happen on much of a scale at all. But I'm just using my experience as a benchmark.
Do folk really act like that? Are there divisions in schools? This just isn't the case in scotland, not on race anyway.
You're right, we're talking popular indie, I shouldn't really have made a distinction between that and pop. You're right, same a&r, same image obsession. Maybe there is something to the industry in this respect.
C'mon, I'm not being pompous. Well, not intentionally. I don't disagree that there are dislikeable kants in music, I was trying to say that in the main artistic folk are openminded, accepting, non-racist, it comes from a creative mind. And, they're generally aware of the history and development of music.
snoots
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I don't know about Indie music these days and if there is any kind of racism I'm sure it wouldn't be overt or conscious - doesn't mean to say it isn't there.
What I do know is that this type of segregation within that scene has a definate starting point which I clearly remember - 1987, when House Music was ousted from the Indie charts as those that ran that scene, Rough Trade, Rough Trade Distribution, the NME, didn't want their pretty little angst ridden cartel "clogged up" with music that, although independent, didn't conform with their narrow view of Indie as a genre - four tossers banging guitars and singing wanly. Wankers, every last one of them. There was a three part series in the NME when "the movers and shakers" of Indie discussed why that music didn't fit with them - they like "bedroom music".
I wish they'd stayed in their bedroom, in fact I wish their mothers and fathers had never entered theirs.
What I do know is that this type of segregation within that scene has a definate starting point which I clearly remember - 1987, when House Music was ousted from the Indie charts as those that ran that scene, Rough Trade, Rough Trade Distribution, the NME, didn't want their pretty little angst ridden cartel "clogged up" with music that, although independent, didn't conform with their narrow view of Indie as a genre - four tossers banging guitars and singing wanly. Wankers, every last one of them. There was a three part series in the NME when "the movers and shakers" of Indie discussed why that music didn't fit with them - they like "bedroom music".
I wish they'd stayed in their bedroom, in fact I wish their mothers and fathers had never entered theirs.
FTJT
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yes, a bit. Not like they're rigidly enforced or something, but (certainly in the home counties) there's kids from daily mail houses who'll talk to the black/asian kids but aren't going to go round their houses or something. Certainly that was the case when I was at school.
Didn't mean to be snotty, it just came out like that. Sorry.
agree, I just think that a lot of these people - people who routinely wear non-football scarves indoors - people who will wear a flat cap and sunglasses at the same time, possibly also while indoors - a lot of these people are the dislikeable kants and a lot of these people end up in indie bands.
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Maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick here, but I think (and I could of course be wrong here) that the reason that there are few non-whites in indie bands is that it's not really their musical style.
For the same reason as there are few (UB40 excepted) predominately white bands playing reggae or rapping.
It's a choice.. Black folk are not excluded from the music scene, in fact I'd hazard a guess that there are probably a disproportionately larger number of black musicians out there (per head of population) than any other ethnic group in the UK... certainly in the "pop" music scene.
For the same reason as there are few (UB40 excepted) predominately white bands playing reggae or rapping.
It's a choice.. Black folk are not excluded from the music scene, in fact I'd hazard a guess that there are probably a disproportionately larger number of black musicians out there (per head of population) than any other ethnic group in the UK... certainly in the "pop" music scene.
snoots
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You're right it is more cultural than race based. Saying that there used to be far more side-ways sneering at black music culture from indie-dom than there was the other way round, dunno what it's like now.
Have now read the article and don't think the type of racism the author is claiming existed or exists now. There is a cultural thing going on though.
Green Sleeves
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Indie music has always been Punk Commodified for the white middle classes. Thats no to say there isnt/hasnt been good bands - theres been loads - but photogenic white faces on the cover of NME sells more copies.
Nothing new there. Few wanted to promote scarey black independent-minded originals like Chuck Berry or Little Richard when there was bland pretty white boys who could shift units and do what the Captains (and Colonels) of industry said.
A similar argument could be made about black musicians in the classical or folk music scene though Or white musicians in the reggae, soul, hip hop or funk scenes.
There's probably more white musicians involved in the traditional black music scenes which is not that surprising ... cos the music tends to be better... and therefore worth appropriating for mass consumption.
As has been said its a cultural thing - which is an acceptable way of saying that white culture and black culture do exist, even if theyre not exclusive No Entry zones.
Nothing new there. Few wanted to promote scarey black independent-minded originals like Chuck Berry or Little Richard when there was bland pretty white boys who could shift units and do what the Captains (and Colonels) of industry said.
A similar argument could be made about black musicians in the classical or folk music scene though Or white musicians in the reggae, soul, hip hop or funk scenes.
There's probably more white musicians involved in the traditional black music scenes which is not that surprising ... cos the music tends to be better... and therefore worth appropriating for mass consumption.
As has been said its a cultural thing - which is an acceptable way of saying that white culture and black culture do exist, even if theyre not exclusive No Entry zones.
snoots
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Pre-1987 there was far more of a crossover in the Independent chart, hip-hop, house, electro - anything that was on an independent label in fact. The NME also covered that diversity. After the embargo on non-jingly-jangly navel gazing mewlings what you say above came about.
EDIT
The DJs They Couldn’t Hang [1986] | DJHistory.com
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Green Sleeves
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in the early days of post-76 independent labels I cant recall the music being called Indie as a genre. The labels put out quite a wide range of stuff.
Were the Jesus & Mary Chain called an Indy band in their early days? camt mind ever thinking of them as part of some "genre". Nobody else came close enough.
Lazy hacks at the music papers were always looking to fence of what they saw as a scene with a generic label. After punk the labels came thick and fast starting with the wanky "new wave" which disappeared back up its NME/Radio1 arsehole in 1978. Then it was every cringy label you could think of.
I seem to mind a free NME cassette tape round bout 1986 trying to jump on board the pioneering work of labels like Creation. Up to that point cant mind bands being called "Indy bands" but my memory aint so good for the 1980s so could well be wrong.
egb_hibs
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Surely you jest, Bloc Party generally and him specifically are the biggest bunch of insufferably whiney posh boys of the last decade.
egb_hibs
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In my view the term indy lost all real meaning when it ceased to mean bands on an independent label.
When I hear the term these days, I presume people mean;
Whiney posh boys playing damnably awful C86 dirges
5 minutes of working class sorts playing a shackled together mix of crap guitar music and drum samples, until Shaun Ryder said the wrong thing, and the working classes were promptly banished again.
Whiney posh boys and girls singing awful C86 dirges
Whiney posh boys and girls singing awful sub Kinks MOR
Whiney posh boys playing prog rock and shit Joy Division rip offs.
Whiney would be a much better label than Indy now I think about it.
When I hear the term these days, I presume people mean;
Whiney posh boys playing damnably awful C86 dirges
5 minutes of working class sorts playing a shackled together mix of crap guitar music and drum samples, until Shaun Ryder said the wrong thing, and the working classes were promptly banished again.
Whiney posh boys and girls singing awful C86 dirges
Whiney posh boys and girls singing awful sub Kinks MOR
Whiney posh boys playing prog rock and shit Joy Division rip offs.
Whiney would be a much better label than Indy now I think about it.
snoots
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Correct.
As I said it wasn't just the hacks but the main distributers and jingly-jangly record labels who cartelled the term "Indie" off to become a musical genre. They were pissed at sharing chart space with House Music labels and things like SAW so shifted the goalposts so that only bowl-cropped moaners were allowed to be listed. Huge stushy at the time. The NME's publishers IPC, also sacked almost all their staff at that point, I stopped buying it shortly after, and it change from being "new"ish and "musical" to being the Indie bible with Morrissey on the front page every week for about 3 years running until the Stone Roses came along, then he was only on the front cover about 75% of the time.
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Agree totally.That and the fact he cant sing live.They are shit, like a lot of bands are live.
vasco de gama
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I think the big problems from the period you are talking about is that the label "indie music" was what became associated with what should really have been labeled "angst music" and that in the space of a few years the NME went from covering a wide spectrum of music as well as occasional features on politics, art, film and literature to becoming very one dimensional in the type of bands and articles they wrote - mostly articles that obsessed about who the latest new stars of "indie music" were.
The independent charts were originally a smallish part of the NME's charts page but then came the great big stramash you mentioned where they kept changing the rules about what classed as Indie Music but still couldn't get it to match what they wanted because Rough Trade distributed artists like Betty Boo and The Cookie Crew who obviously outsold Wet Blanket Four or whatever the latest heroes of certain journos were. They then decided to ditch the focus on the charts and just start covering that very narrow type of music that is called "indie" but is actually in no way independent as the bulk of the acts are either on major labels or are distributed by majors.
Oasis, Radiohead, Blur - never even slightly independent as Sony and EMI payrolled them. Does it matter really ... no. But what is sad is that the NME and things like 6 Music are incredibly narrow in the types of music they cover and it is largely very unoriginal music despite the claims to be soooooo radical made by both the NME and 6 Music. I mean what the hell is that NME award thing that is shaped like someome giving the finger, just who are these radicals giving the finger to? Creativity?
D
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What is it then Snoots. Twas a serious question oddly enough.
Kurt
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Nor in London. My wee boys friends are as likely to be black as white. When you grow up with it, people have different colours of hair, people have different colours of skin....until cock-sockets like this columnist stir up divisions that don't exist!!
Where's the article on the racism of the r 'n' b scene which has few white artists.
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Great post, man. That last bit had me pishin masel.
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the MOBO's are a joke. All modern music has grown from "black music". The Rolling Stones are black music but they dont get an award.
You are listening to the wrong Hip Hip, not sure what this rap music is.
superbam
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Well said. I remember this bellend in school who was always giving me shit for listening to hip hop and prided himself on never listening to "black man's music". What did he listen to? House and techno :doh
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You could argue that Kraftwerk are one of the most influential bands ever. Are they black music? no ,but they influenced it big time.
egb_hibs
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No it hasn't. Much contemporary 'black' music has it's origins in musical roots invented by Kraftwerk and others in late 60s and early 70s Germany, and which owes nothing whatsoever to 12 bar blues.
In others words, much modern black music was given it's soul by whitey.
snoots
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No I'm not. I'm listening to the carpenters.
It's that stuff where the guy talks in time to a backing track.
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Really, care to name these bands and the music they shaped
Green Sleeves
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Absolutely. White culture has delivered the musical goods as well as black culture.
The electronic music you mention has roots in many different cultures. Kraftwerk and much of the early 70s Krautrock scene were the musical spawn of the German avante garde composer Stockhausen. This was acknowledged.
Stockhausen comes from a long lineage of radical white European classical composers including Beethoven, Wagner and Stravinsky.
Its possibly this mixed cultural roots - from white and black culture and other indigenous musics - that gave house, techno and all the other variations of electronic music such a wide non definable audience.
When something cant be pigeonholed or labelled easy it challenges cultural preconceptions and thats not what sells NMEs nor gives a narrow-range radio station like BBC 6 its identity.
Yet it was the arch non-conformist John Peel who proved that if you ignore these narrow genres and create a music forum that goes wild with eclectic diversity, truly independent of constraint, you can create something of value to open minded music heads that is both beautiful and educational (in the best sense of the word).
vasco de gama
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So true. This man's show directly lead to the spawling mess of a record collection that I developed in the 80s and early 90s as he played literally anything that he found interesting instead of worrying about if it was cool or from the right scene. I think a few of the DJs on 6 Music think they are carving out the same niche as Peel did just cos they occasionally play an old musichall track or a piece of classical music or avant-garde jazz whilst generally playing a narrow field of contemporary tunes. The point about Peel was he consistently played a mix of great old tunes from different genres AND played loads of new music from almost every genre as well. The Festive 50 was a bit wank though.
egb_hibs
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I'm confused Alexi. After the post of yours I responded to, you went on to make the same point as me, and now you're questioning it again?!
snoots
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This is all wrong. You're mixing up instrumentation (electronica) with form (12 bar blues)
egb_hibs
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No I'm not. My point was precisely that Kraftwerk was not based on the tbb form which influenced rock n roll.
O'Driscoll
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EGB is kind of right! Black music is much more informed by the repetitive beats of the likes of Can and Kraftwerk than white music (I realise this is a huge generalisation) but black music influenced white music in the forst place and the greatest form of compliment is the quest to be different from. This brings me to the Indie/post punk scene, theyt were all too keen to be different from the Clash it showed The Clash as their biggest influence. It is that quest for difference which is both informed by and makes the changes from what went before.
snoots
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Autobahn is based on The Beach Boys "Fun Fun Fun" - "fun fun fun on the autobahn, it might not sound much like it as they are pretending to be robots being being The Beach Boys but there you go. The Beach Boys Fun Fun Fun is based on Chuck Berry's "Sweet Little Sixteen".
Rock and Roll isn't 12 bar blues - by far and away most of rock and roll is based on 2/4 or 4/4 times, 8 or 16 bars. 2/4 and 4/4 timings in Popular Song come out Gospel Churches by way hoochy-mama houses and Prohibition joints.
Kraftwerk are a huge influence on many black artists and white ones and yellow ones. It's mostly their instrumentation that's the influence though, not the forms.
snoots
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I sort of see what you're saying. You have to remember that Jaki in Can was a jazz drummer, that's all he's doing is play jazz drums while the rest of them pretend to be The Velvet Underground. Kraftwerk's beats are their take on rock and roll and they later picked up on four to four from disco.
Repetitive beats are the staple of most black based music from jazz and ragtime up to now. There's a cultural well there they doesn't require much of a nudge from krautrock. I doubt there's huge swathes of R&B producers looking to Ralf und Florian or Tago Mago to hear how it's done.