The staggering impact of tech on youngsters

[egb_hibs]

This is a sobering take by renowned sociologist Jonathan Haidt, on what might be called @aggie ‘s hypothesis. That is to say the devasting effect on generation z from social media and mobile devices.

Whether it’s ‘merely’ a generation with permanently impacted brain function or an existential problem, time will tell. But Haidt sets out the role this plays in the madnesses of our day, together with the influence of a corrupted academia. As a guy whose original professional motive was to ‘help the democrats win elections’, this is not a view from the right; it is one based on careful study and data.

@Purple & Green he predicts a complete collapse in gen z marriage and reproduction as one consequence.

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I listened to this while working on a technology plan. I fckn hate this industry lol

 

[HaarlemShuffler]

Dunno about the UK but recently here in NL, there have been experiments in some schools with no mobiles in class.

Last one I caught on telly was somewhere down south, think they had been doing it for about six months or so and attention levels were up, courtesy in the corridors was much improved and even the pupils interviewed gave it an only slightly qualified thumbs-up.

May be that the experiment gets rolled out in more places next/coming term.

 

[Westside Green]

I've said for years that they need to get out there and live

 

[egb_hibs]

I've said for years that they need to get out there and live

Yup the guy talks at length about this and the fragility it has produced. This is not just behaviour to be relearned either, brain development which only happens under 25 yo affected.

 

[Westside Green]

Yup the guy talks at length about this and the fragility it has produced. This is not just behaviour to be relearned either, brain development which only happens under 25 yo affected.

He did say it's not a total lost cause when they get to 25 but I think the damage is done.

 

[EH17 Jimmy]

Right yous techtastic folk. Is this good news or bad news?....…




Google has taken a major step towards creating a quantum computer, after unveiling a 'mind-boggling' quantum chip - its most powerful yet.

Measuring 1.5-inches (4cm) – a little larger than an After Eight mint – the chip takes five minutes to complete tasks that would take conventional computers 10 septillion years.

That's 10 followed by 24 zeroes, or 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years – so more time than the history of the universe.

Google's quantum chip performs 'impossible' tasks in 5 minutes

Google's new Willow chip brings us closer to quantum computers in labs, offices and even homes.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[hibbybilly]

That's 10 followed by 24 zeroes, or 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years – so more time than the history of the universe.

Fuck me thats nearly as fast as some cvnts slagging Hibs on here when they get beat Jimmy.

 

[Glenmore Road]

It's a fair rule of thumb that technological advances which replace physical human labour have almost inevitably brought about improvement for the vast majority of citizens in societies that have made those advances.
Such advances have been made for millennia.

Technological advances that replace human thought & intellectual rigour have been rare until relatively recently. The benefits they bring to a society can be viewed on the surface as similar to those brought by labour-saving advances.

However, there do appear to be more social problems in a society where citizens can't work out the square root of 38, budget effectively, or accurately analyse basic risk/reward or cost/value situations than in a society where most people would be incapable of a day's graft in a field or passing an army basic fitness test.

In my view, labour-saving advances are to be welcomed. Advances designed to obviate the need for a functioning brain are not.

Having just moved back to The West after more than 30 years away, my initial impression that we are rapidly regressing into the Eloi from H. G. Wells's "The Time Machine" isn't going away.
Question is: "Who and where are the Morlocks?"

 

[egb_hibs]

Right yous techtastic folk. Is this good news or bad news?....…




Google has taken a major step towards creating a quantum computer, after unveiling a 'mind-boggling' quantum chip - its most powerful yet.

Measuring 1.5-inches (4cm) – a little larger than an After Eight mint – the chip takes five minutes to complete tasks that would take conventional computers 10 septillion years.

That's 10 followed by 24 zeroes, or 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years – so more time than the history of the universe.

Google's quantum chip performs 'impossible' tasks in 5 minutes

Google's new Willow chip brings us closer to quantum computers in labs, offices and even homes.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Windows 2035 edition will no doubt find a way to use all that power while being as sluggish as ever

We will see if their claims are borne out. If they can make this reliable and general purpose then it would be a game changer in anything that requires mathematical modelling. So yes pretty significant to everything from weather forecasting and genome mapping, to making encryption obsolete….and I wonder about bitcoin…

 

[EH17 Jimmy]

Once the labour saving devices becomes multitude and there is no need for workers then where and what do those workers do though?

 

[egb_hibs]

It's a fair rule of thumb that technological advances which replace physical human labour have almost inevitably brought about improvement for the vast majority of citizens in societies that have made those advances.
Such advances have been made for millennia.

Technological advances that replace human thought & intellectual rigour have been rare until relatively recently. The benefits they bring to a society can be viewed on the surface as similar to those brought by labour-saving advances.

However, there do appear to be more social problems in a society where citizens can't work out the square root of 38, budget effectively, or accurately analyse basic risk/reward or cost/value situations than in a society where most people would be incapable of a day's graft in a field or passing an army basic fitness test.

In my view, labour-saving advances are to be welcomed. Advances designed to obviate the need for a functioning brain are not.

Having just moved back to The West after more than 30 years away, my initial impression that we are rapidly regressing into the Eloi from H. G. Wells's "The Time Machine" isn't going away.
Question is: "Who and where are the Morlocks?"

I think it’s not at all similar to automation of labour. There’s nowhere else for humans to go. It’s a recipe for social disaster.

 

[egb_hibs]

Once the labour saving devices becomes multitude and there is no need for workers then where and what do those workers do though?

Before the Industrial Revolution there were screeds of horses in the UK, pulling barges and carriages, powering mills etc.

After it there is a relative handful kept as pets or entertainment.

That’s what will likely happen to workers.

 

[EH17 Jimmy]

The best firm I ever worked for was Millar Homes. Great bunch of lads.

The onsite banter was great. The pints after work were great.

Now I'm retired I'm having what I consider to be a well earned rest.

Masses of our youngsters will never get to experience that.

 

[Bangkokhibby]

where citizens can't work out the square root of 38,

Are we allowed calculators?
Why would anyone want to?

 

[EH17 Jimmy]

Before the Industrial Revolution there were screeds of horses in the UK, pulling barges and carriages, powering mills etc.

After it there is a relative handful kept as pets or entertainment.

That’s what will likely happen to workers.

Well we have a pet Merrick we take out with us. Is that the same?

 

[egb_hibs]

The best firm I ever worked for was Millar Homes. Great bunch of lads.

The onsite banter was great. The pints after work were great.

Now I'm retired I'm having what I consider to be a well earned rest.

Masses of our youngsters will never get to experience that.

That’s how it looks right now. An alternative future will see them skipping the decades of work and retiring when they leave school. Which is even more disastrous.

 

[egb_hibs]

The sad thing is @EH17 Jimmy you have missed the period which will come - if the AI bods are right in their proclamations - where tradesman while be among the most affluent in society, while lawyers, doctors, accountants, finance guys, IT guys, will be onto plums.

 

[EH17 Jimmy]

We need to curtail agencies mate. They are the bane of the trades.

Yep the money can be good (Ames tapers were on around £22 an hour no all that long ago) but the work practices are crap.

And there are lots of shitty agencies out there.

 

[blue toon hibby]

We have friends who have two sons now aged 40 and 36. Neither has had a girlfriend, they still share a bedroom in the parental home and their only interests are gaming and cooking. They still go on holidays with their parents and they are lacking in basic social skills - and they both work in IT for the same company. Like many others nowadays, life IMHO is passing them by.

 

[EH17 Jimmy]

Wow how sad is that mate eh?

 

[hibbybilly]

Before the Industrial Revolution there were screeds of horses in the UK, pulling barges and carriages, powering mills etc.

After it there is a relative handful kept as pets or entertainment.

That’s what will likely happen to workers.

Ad in 2050
School leaver needed for Barge Pulling vacancy. Must be older than 40 and athletic and strong.
No 39 Plus exam failures need apply.

 

[egb_hibs]

We have friends who have two sons now aged 40 and 36. Neither has had a girlfriend, they still share a bedroom in the parental home and their only interests are gaming and cooking. They still go on holidays with their parents and they are lacking in basic social skills - and they both work in IT for the same company. Like many others nowadays, life IMHO is passing them by.

IT is full of this sort of thing. When I started eons ago, there were a bunch of these sorts, who often got into it because they couldnae hack the pressure of accountancy exams or whatever. There was also tons of likely lads who were bright but not university educated or in the traditional career mode - folk who grew up playing computer games and wondered into a newish industry that was a bit Wild West and didn’t really have an established academic entry point.

The latter cohort were often as far removed from the geek cohort as you can get. But over the intervening decades their numbers have thinned as its now business as usual, ie get folk out of uni who are often the more geeky kind, and if they’re not are prone to be LinkedIn wafflers.

I knew some authentic geniouses in IT terms who could do stuff that would run rings round your average computer science PhD. But they would sink an improbable amount of pints at lunchtime and fuck off home to a mining town after work. Don’t get them sorts anymore - not outside the kind of help desk / fix my laptop roles.

One of ten million reasons I’m glad I’m about done with it.

 

[emerald green]

IT is full of this sort of thing. When I started eons ago, there were a bunch of these sorts, who often got into it because they couldnae hack the pressure of accountancy exams or whatever. There was also tons of likely lads who were bright but not university educated or in the traditional career mode - folk who grew up playing computer games and wondered into a newish industry that was a bit Wild West and didn’t really have an established academic entry point.

The latter cohort were often as far removed from the geek cohort as you can get. But over the intervening decades their numbers have thinned as its now business as usual, ie get folk out of uni who are often the more geeky kind, and if they’re not are prone to be LinkedIn wafflers.

I knew some authentic geniouses in IT terms who could do stuff that would run rings round your average computer science PhD. But they would sink an improbable amount of pints at lunchtime and fuck off home to a mining town after work. Don’t get them sorts anymore - not outside the kind of help desk / fix my laptop roles.

One of ten million reasons I’m glad I’m about done with it.

...but thats just age and weariness is it no? There has always been socially inadequate individuals as described by Blue Toon, its not new.

 

[egb_hibs]

...but thats just age and weariness is it no? There has always been socially inadequate individuals as described by Blue Toon, its not new.

No. I've described a specific change in circumstances.

Back when I started, like I say, IT was a fledgling industry. Degree courses existed but it was all very new. And you could thus get a start in the industry without the uni pathway and associated class dimensions. A bright kid who had messed around with computers at home and who could pass an aptitude test was as good as most places were going to be able to find.

Now it's like every other middle class job - and these days it very definitely is that. Graduate recruitment pathway.

Probably 80 to 90% of people i ever worked with over 34 years have been made redundant due to globalism / offshoring. Hundreds i know personally, likely thousands at one step removed.

Many of the kind of folk I started with would have difficulty getting in somewhere else under today's conditions and go off to drive taxis or whatever.

So an entire 'culture' if that's not too pretentious has been deleted, and the replacement is much more like going into accountancy or whatever.

You do still get some more old school types in networking or PC support, but they are much rarer in software engineering etc. To be fair that kind of divide was always there a bit, but more so now. And you probably need to have gained 40k worth of student debt an all, which will be of no practical use in 80% of cases, at least.

 

[emerald green]

No. I've described a specific change in circumstances.

Back when I started, like I say, IT was a fledgling industry. Degree courses existed but it was all very new. And you could thus get a start in the industry without the uni pathway and associated class dimensions. A bright kid who had messed around with computers at home and who could pass an aptitude test was as good as most places were going to be able to find.

Now it's like every other middle class job - and these days it very definitely is that. Graduate recruitment pathway.

Probably 80 to 90% of people i ever worked with over 34 years have been made redundant due to globalism / offshoring. Hundreds i know personally, likely thousands at one step removed.

Many of the kind of folk I started with would have difficulty getting in somewhere else under today's conditions and go off to drive taxis or whatever.

So an entire 'culture' if that's not too pretentious has been deleted, and the replacement is much more like going into accountancy or whatever.

You do still get some more old school types in networking or PC support, but they are much rarer in software engineering etc. To be fair that kind of divide was always there a bit, but more so now. And you probably need to have gained 40k worth of student debt an all, which will be of no practical use in 80% of

There used to be hundreds of tousands of folks working in mines.

Job markets have always changed with technology.
For every farrier who lost their jobs, there were, before you knew it many more grease monkeys.
Globilisation is a fairly new phenomenon. Im no sure the human race is doomed just yet.

 

[egb_hibs]

There used to be hundreds of tousands of folks working in mines.

Job markets have always changed with technology.
For every farrier who lost their jobs, there were, before you knew it many more grease monkeys.
Globilisation is a fairly new phenomenon. Im no sure the human race is doomed just yet.

I was talking about the change in culture in IT and why there are so many bedroom sorts of the kind @blue toon hibby describes. I referenced AI in a different posts and I’ll return to that below.

If you want to celebrate the global capitalism you are insulated from, I have a couple of thoughts;

- how many people do you know personally that have lost their job to offshoring ?
- or had their wages diluted by mass migration?

As I’ve said before it’s hundreds for me on the former count while I expect the likes of @EH17 Jimmy knows many on the latter. And by that I mean explicitly, ie rates going down. In terms of suppression of rates, again I will know hundreds and so also will you, and you’ll be one.

This is not about jobs being superseded, they still exist. But labour rates are arbitraged - that is to say, people are swapped out for less expensive people. Some of the difference is passed on as price cuts and the rest pocketed by capital. This is new - it’s not at all the same as competing with finished goods made elsewhere which goes back a lot longer - and you are almost entirely insulated from the direct effect. You are hit by secondary effects, because it starves the exchequer who pay you. This is the central driver of the wealth polarisation of our day; why do you think the well to do work so hard to discourage wrongthinking about it?

Of course this doesn’t doom humanity, indeed it’s lifting it out of poverty at an unprecedented rate. At the expense of western labour. Which is where our chat on the other thread overlaps. It doesn’t end until western labour rates descend to meet rising developing world rates.

AI, that’s a different story. Your goose is deffo cooked if promises on that front materialise, and so are very many others. And there will be nowhere left to go, outside the trades and a few other things. Again, that will be new. I personally think those claims might be a little overdone, but time will tell. However, any young person starting out in an office based role, does not have a full career ahead of them, that’s pretty much for sure. And I don’t mean with a single employer I mean across the whole category of office based roles, from accounting to finance to IT to the kind of thing you do.

 

[emerald green]

I was talking about the change in culture in IT and why there are so many bedroom sorts of the kind @blue toon hibby describes. I referenced AI in a different posts and I’ll return to that below.

Yeah, didnt disagree with you/ Merely stated there has always been socially awkward folks out there. Stay at homes.

If you want to celebrate the global capitalism you are insulated from, I have a couple of thoughts;

Nope. Never stated I celebrate anything. Man speaks with forked tongue.

- how many people do you know personally that have lost their job to offshoring ?
- or had their wages diluted by mass migration?

See previous comment

As I’ve said before it’s hundreds for me on the former count while I expect the likes of @EH17 Jimmy knows many on the latter. And by that I mean explicitly, ie rates going down. In terms of suppression of rates, again I will know hundreds and so also will you, and you’ll be one.

See previous comment.
Youre now rabbitting on about Globalisation, Im not sure that the 2 adultkids mentioned in Blue Toons post is as a result of globalisation!

This is not about jobs being superseded, they still exist. But labour rates are arbitraged - that is to say, people are swapped out for less expensive people.

Always been thus. Its called the law of supply and demand

Some of the difference is passed on as price cuts and the rest pocketed by capital. This is new - it’s not at all the same as competing with finished goods made elsewhere which goes back a lot longer - and you are almost entirely insulated from the direct effect. You are hit by secondary effects, because it starves the exchequer who pay you. This is the central driver of the wealth polarisation of our day; why do you think the well to do work so hard to discourage wrongthinking about it?

Greed is the central driver of wealth polarisation mate.

Of course this doesn’t doom humanity, indeed it’s lifting it out of poverty at an unprecedented rate.

Correct!

At the expense of western labour.

Not strictle true. You think there wasnt a steady lifting of people out of poverty prior to globalisation. I think there was. Obviously the charts will see a steadying of poverty rates in the west , and in general a sharp spike in many areas in the world.

Which is where our chat on the other thread overlaps. It doesn’t end until western labour rates descend to meet rising developing world rates.

AI, that’s a different story. Your goose is deffo cooked if promises on that front materialise, and so are very many others.

Aye, the genie is definately out the bottle

And there will be nowhere left to go, outside the trades and a few other things. Again, that will be new. I personally think those claims might be a little overdone, but time will tell. However, any young person starting out in an office based role, does not have a full career ahead of them, that’s pretty much for sure.

I think in the main that has been the case for the last 40+ years. I think you can go back to prob the late 70s as being the time where you could walk out a job and into another.

And I don’t mean with a single employer I mean across the whole category of office based roles, from accounting to finance to IT to the kind of thing you do.

Yes, there is a wheen of redundant services on the horizon.

I think though, there will always be emerging markets.

 

[aggie]

Globilisation is a fairly new phenomenon. Im no sure the human race is doomed just yet.

Well quite -- and just think about how far it's gone, and how fast, since its inception, which I'd put very roughly speaking at the turn of the 80s/90s decade. So little more than 30 years or so. To your farriers and mechanics point, think about how long the age ushered in by the Industrial Revolution took to reach its own specific crisis point, which arguably came about in the 1970s -- over 100yrs, at least.

 

[aggie]

Greed is the central driver of wealth polarisation mate.

Well, in a way -- but everyone is greedy. That wealth has steadily concentrated in the hands of a tiny few of the billions of greedy humans on the planet is a function of a system that structurally necessitates it.

 

[emerald green]

Well quite -- and just think about how far it's gone, and how fast, since its inception, which I'd put very roughly speaking at the turn of the 80s/90s decade. So little more than 30 years or so. To your farriers and mechanics point, think about how long the age ushered in by the Industrial Revolution took to reach its own specific crisis point, which arguably came about in the 1970s -- over 100yrs, at least.

...but the change came very quickly.

 

[emerald green]

Well, in a way -- but everyone is greedy. That wealth has steadily concentrated in the hands of a tiny few of the billions of greedy humans on the planet is a function of a system that structurally necessitates it.

Yep, you agree with me. The main driver is greed.

 

[Doc Shrink]

However, there do appear to be more social problems in a society where citizens can't work out the square root of 38

Give us a break mate!

Square root of 36 Shirley?

 

[Westside Green]

We need to curtail agencies mate. They are the bane of the trades.

Yep the money can be good (Ames tapers were on around £22 an hour no all that long ago) but the work practices are crap.

And there are lots of shitty agencies out there.

I would outlaw these parasites

 

[egb_hibs]

Yeah, didnt disagree with you/ Merely stated there has always been socially awkward folks out there. Stay at homes.

Nope. Never stated I celebrate anything. Man speaks with forked tongue.

See previous comment

See previous comment.
Youre now rabbitting on about Globalisation, Im not sure that the 2 adultkids mentioned in Blue Toons post is as a result of globalisation!

I explained why the culture in the IT industry changed, that is all.

Always been thus. Its called the law of supply and demand

No it hasn’t always been thus. Labour arbitrage is relatively new. But yes it is the supply and demand principle, as is mass migration. Interestingly now fully embraced by both the left and those insulated from it.

Greed is the central driver of wealth polarisation mate.

We’re not in sixth form EGers. This may be true to a point, but we won’t get very far trying to tackle consequences without paying attention to the mechanisms ‘greed’ uses to get its way. Globalisation is the cause of the dramatic polarisation of wealth of the recent past. And it won’t be stopping.

I think of this as an NRA ‘guns don’t kill people, people do’ argument. I mean for sure, but guns are the mechanism.

Correct!

Not strictle true. You think there wasnt a steady lifting of people out of poverty prior to globalisation. I think there was. Obviously the charts will see a steadying of poverty rates in the west , and in general a sharp spike in many areas in the world.

What I mean is that the developing world has gained at the expense of western labour. Which is fact.

Aye, the genie is definately out the bottle

I think in the main that has been the case for the last 40+ years. I think you can go back to prob the late 70s as being the time where you could walk out a job and into another.

Nope. It’s going to be nothing like that. I am talking about entire categories of work disappearing and there not being alternative categories to go to. That’s not like leaving Bank of Scotland (or getting emptied) and moving to RBS.

Yes, there is a wheen of redundant services on the horizon.

I think though, there will always be emerging markets.

Perhaps, but that’s not really the point. It’s the category of activity.

Repeatable / pattern based physical activity - gone

Data processing and analytical work - in the widest sense, from accountants to yourself - gone

Much creative work from copy writing to commercial art - gone

Pattern centric cognitive work, eg law, medicine - gone

New industries may well pop up, but I’ll be surprised if they generate much work outside those categories of activity. This is what is repeatedly missing from the rhetoric of those talking up AI, and which is different to before - unless you were a horse at the time of the Industrial Revolution.

The line of business (including state functions) is completely irrelevant. It’s the category of activity.

 

[egb_hibs]

...but the change came very quickly.

And there was an alternative path. If the promise of AI is borne out, it will hit quicker, the impact will be far wider, and there won’t be an alternative path.

 

[Weehibbydrew]

Give us a break mate!

Square root of 36 Shirley?

Nope. It's 6.16441400297. Did you not go to school?

 

[egb_hibs]

Here’s a wee table of how chat GPT does at various (US) degree level or professional exams (e.g. the bar). It’s mostly expressed in percentiles so, for example, 90th means it does better than 89% of people who sat the exam.

Note the improvement in chat gpt 4 vs 3.5 released way back in 2022

 

[Doc Shrink]

Nope. It's 6.16441400297. Did you not go to school?

Aye, but I’ve only got 5 fingers on each hand.

 

[Young porty]

Fascinating guy. He's been saying this for years but folk only listening recently. Obvious to anybody working beside younger people with very poor attention spans and communication skills. Scott Galloway another great guy on similar topics especially young men being left behind which is a ticking time bomb too.

 

[emerald green]

And there was an alternative path. If the promise of AI is borne out, it will hit quicker, the impact will be far wider, and there won’t be an alternative path.

Perhaps there will be. You cant see the future. It would appear that new markets emerge constantly, if you look hostorically.