Taxi for Kezia
- Thread starter hibadelic
- Start date
- Joined
- May 16, 2004
Resigns, my erse. Real boss comes tae town, pretendy branch office boss quits :hmmm 
shoved oot the door by corbyn tae make way for his allies. That's what happens when you oppose the real boss Kez, cheers for the laughs though.
shoved oot the door by corbyn tae make way for his allies. That's what happens when you oppose the real boss Kez, cheers for the laughs though.
Chris G Whyte
Private Member
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2008
Dragging Labour into third place at all levels of government in Scotland, while failing to secure an increase in vote share despite an SNP collapse at the latest General Election, will forever go down as a calamitous performance. Arguably, the bigger issue is that I’m not sure one can really blame Dugdale for it; she inherited a Labour group at Holyrood that, for some inexplicable reason, thought Jim Murphy would have made a good leader at that moment in history.
The reality is that Labour are absolutely irrelevant in Scotland, and people vote for them largely out of tribalism or habit.
They’re outflanked on the neoliberal right by a party that so unreservedly apologises for housing sectarians that nobody is allowed to hear said apology, and they’re outflanked on the left by what is, ultimately, a “left wing” Blairite SNP party that’s in no danger of losing power at Holyrood any time soon. The devolution settlement means that policy matters need a properly organised Labour party (which isn’t what we’ve got), too many of their MSPs can’t get behind the national manifesto that proved so popular because they also happen to be Blairites, and their basic stance of anti-independence is wholly destructive.
Labour needs a point, and a top down structural reorganisation. Ditching Deputy Dug and moving around the seats of the Titanic will get the party nowhere.
The reality is that Labour are absolutely irrelevant in Scotland, and people vote for them largely out of tribalism or habit.
They’re outflanked on the neoliberal right by a party that so unreservedly apologises for housing sectarians that nobody is allowed to hear said apology, and they’re outflanked on the left by what is, ultimately, a “left wing” Blairite SNP party that’s in no danger of losing power at Holyrood any time soon. The devolution settlement means that policy matters need a properly organised Labour party (which isn’t what we’ve got), too many of their MSPs can’t get behind the national manifesto that proved so popular because they also happen to be Blairites, and their basic stance of anti-independence is wholly destructive.
Labour needs a point, and a top down structural reorganisation. Ditching Deputy Dug and moving around the seats of the Titanic will get the party nowhere.
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2002
Neil will be writing chapter one of his next book.
southfieldhibby
Private Member
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2002
Wouldn't be a massive surprise if Dugdale came out as a Labour Nationalist. Easily justfied with the current shambles being delivered to Scotland by Westminster.
Chris G Whyte
Private Member
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2008
I can't see it. She's been too vociferously against it, so such a change in position would need to be carefully stage-managed... And nothing we've seen from Scottish Labour, pretty much from its inception, suggests they could pull it off.
That said, the latest bullet having been put into GERS over the last week means that there is a bit of wiggle room for Labour to take a far more reasonable stance on independence; but too many people on their side of the chamber are so rigidly against it, that I just can't see it happening. It'd also be open season on the shift in stance, given that the party is a bit of a laughing stock amongst those who are top of what they get up to.
Just this week, Dugdale herself was waxing lyrical about the Queensferry Crossing... The same Queensferry Crossing that Scottish Labour argued was completely unnecessary.
The party's a joke.
Kenny
Private Member
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2003
until they call out davidson with the same venom they reserve for the SNP then they are toast.
- - - Updated - - -
EDIT
- - - Updated - - -
EDIT
Kenny
Private Member
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2003
difficult circumstances - but partly of her own making wouldn't you say?
"vote tory to defeat the SNP" & backing owen vs corbyn so vehemently
Smurf
Private Member
- Joined
- May 15, 2003
Nope. I absolutely disagree. Scottish Labour had been on a downward trajectory for a long long time stretching way back to losing government in 2007 at Holyrood. By the time of the referendum 2014 Scottish Labour was a shambles. The decision to join with others in Better Together a monumental error of epic proportions. Whoever replaced Lamont was doomed. Murphy took on the role but Labour were always heading for a GE wipeout 2015. And it isn't spinning anything to suggest that by the GE 2017 Kezia HAD stopped the rot. I honestly think nobody could have done better. I will confidently predict that as long as Labour now elect a competent leader with some charisma Labour will beat the SNP at the next UK GE.
Kenny
Private Member
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2003
bold yet with a massive cavaet of competency.
As, Since GE2017, little has moved in the UK Labour Position, and little has moved with scottish/UK tories position, therefore labour could've beaten SNP at GE2017 with a competent leader - which would lead one to say KD wasn't competent .... and there her downfall is partially of her own doing.
- - - Updated - - -
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2006
until they call out davidson with the same venom they reserve for the SNP then they are toast.
- - - Updated - - -
EDIT
And you reckon that's that then? This is politics remember. Considering I live 2 streets away from the next janny, who is the preferred candidate of the UK leader, I'll stand by my prediction
Kenny
Private Member
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2003
Yer @rse... admit it... the baillietron has it in the bag... she will unleash hell on everything until she is first minister of the world...
Smurf
Private Member
- Joined
- May 15, 2003
Agreed.
Jack
Private Member
- Joined
- Nov 11, 2007
You like him more than I do then!
Chris G Whyte
Private Member
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2008
I sympathise with a lot of that, and have often commented that it seems harsh to blame Dugdale for the collapse of Scottish Labour; but you're effectively trying to ignore facts in your assessment. The 2015 General Election was an anomaly that was never going to happen again and, ignoring it, the SNP have continually developed both their support base, and the number of people willing to vote for them. It's an upward trajectory since 2007, and I think the people of Scotland have effectively realised that there's not really much point in voting Labour anymore. You don't need Labour MPs to avoid Conservatives, and picking the SNP means you don't get vote fodder that'll be whipped into line to vote for pro-English legislation that negatively impacts Scotland.
The gig is up in that regard.
Dugdale has managed to collapse Holyrood and council power into third place for Labour, and has managed that by playing second fiddle to a Conservative leader with a penchant for supporting sectarianism and trying to ulsterise the language of the political debate in Scotland. The target should always have been Davidson, not Sturgeon, and the decision to flat-out reject independence, no matter what, meant that Labour couldn't touch the core SNP vote. Labour managed to lose its council stranglehold in Glasgow, and couldn't pick up the busloads of lost votes the SNP confetti'd around in the 2017 General Election. Laughable policy problems and woefully researched press releases made the entire party look horrifically incompetent, and Dugdale didn't have the personal nous to deal with it - preferring instead to boorishly answer the questions in her head rather than those in interviews.
But as I hinted, it's not all her fault. A despicably partisan Scottish media, particularly at Pacific Quay, did their best to smooth the waters for Scottish Labour without realising that reporting their gibberish, without even a veneer of journalistic integrity, presented a series of open goals for nationalists and progressives to rip apart. It seems people like Jackie Baillie find it literally impossible to make a public statement without lying (and claiming that people mock her because of her accent), and those like Sarwar won't even face the electorate for fear of being made a laughing stock.
Scottish Labour needs to:
- Clear the deadwood of party nobodies.
- Organise the party in line with the devolution settlement.
- Craft a coherent vision for the party in Scotland.
- Drop their opposition to independence.
If they can do all of those, they might have a future. If not, the current "bottom rung" is as good as things will ever get.
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2002
Has Rowley got much of a chance? tbh I don't know many of the names and the ones I do (Sarwar, Findlay, Bailie) don't strike me as people likely to turn their party's fortunes around. likely they'd make them considerably worse which may be a backahanded compliment to Kez.
https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/11611/spotlight-these-are-names-tipped-be-next-scottish-labour-leader
note Unite has just backed Rowely....he's not been very high profile for a dept leader? maybe I no longer really pay attention to labour?
new leader has to provide a step change in direction for SLab and make them relevant (constitutionally). detoxify as well. no small order.
https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/11611/spotlight-these-are-names-tipped-be-next-scottish-labour-leader
note Unite has just backed Rowely....he's not been very high profile for a dept leader? maybe I no longer really pay attention to labour?
new leader has to provide a step change in direction for SLab and make them relevant (constitutionally). detoxify as well. no small order.
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2002
Scottish Nationalists get together on here. Findlay the Corbynite is definitely standing my neighbour next door to me and Findlay told me.....woof....Unite backing Rowley...oh really, O'Rowley! I particularly like the pathos of Z....I am a Nationalist and Labour are irrelevant however if they do this, this and that they may get there act together and I do not get irony.
I was in San Diego during the last General Election and for once was not up all night which I have done for coming on for 50 years. Listening on Radio 4 I could not but help reflecting on all the folk on this thread (and the Lost Children of the Bounce) and the stuff that was spouted about Corbyn the Unelectable, which of course he still is, and the sometimes patronizing threads. Look back they are a hoot. The predictions of final seats are ...err as accurate as the stuff about Findlay, Rowley and my 3-0 to Hibs predictions.
Later on I was in Zuma Beach, in Malbou with my wife. Into a beach side grocers for coffee and bun when a guy and his German wife approached me.....
'Oy BIG G I see that them Tartan Tories have all fucked off back to where they came from and looks like Labour under Corbyn are making gains which will increase if Labour in Scotland get behind the geezer. Can I get my photo with you BIG G?' 'I agree to all that Johnny, goed la, by the way did I mention that Mark at Fruitin Travel is the fuckin business when organising astonishing holidays?'
BIG G
I was in San Diego during the last General Election and for once was not up all night which I have done for coming on for 50 years. Listening on Radio 4 I could not but help reflecting on all the folk on this thread (and the Lost Children of the Bounce) and the stuff that was spouted about Corbyn the Unelectable, which of course he still is, and the sometimes patronizing threads. Look back they are a hoot. The predictions of final seats are ...err as accurate as the stuff about Findlay, Rowley and my 3-0 to Hibs predictions.
Later on I was in Zuma Beach, in Malbou with my wife. Into a beach side grocers for coffee and bun when a guy and his German wife approached me.....
'Oy BIG G I see that them Tartan Tories have all fucked off back to where they came from and looks like Labour under Corbyn are making gains which will increase if Labour in Scotland get behind the geezer. Can I get my photo with you BIG G?' 'I agree to all that Johnny, goed la, by the way did I mention that Mark at Fruitin Travel is the fuckin business when organising astonishing holidays?'
BIG G
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2005
Scottish Nationalists get together on here. Findlay the Corbynite is definitely standing my neighbour next door to me and Findlay told me.....woof....Unite backing Rowley...oh really, O'Rowley! I particularly like the pathos of Z....I am a Nationalist and Labour are irrelevant however if they do this, this and that they may get there act together and I do not get irony.
I was in San Diego during the last General Election and for once was not up all night which I have done for coming on for 50 years. Listening on Radio 4 I could not but help reflecting on all the folk on this thread (and the Lost Children of the Bounce) and the stuff that was spouted about Corbyn the Unelectable, which of course he still is, and the sometimes patronizing threads. Look back they are a hoot. The predictions of final seats are ...err as accurate as the stuff about Findlay, Rowley and my 3-0 to Hibs predictions.
Later on I was in Zuma Beach, in Malbou with my wife. Into a beach side grocers for coffee and bun when a guy and his German wife approached me.....
'Oy BIG G I see that them Tartan Tories have all fucked off back to where they came from and looks like Labour under Corbyn are making gains which will increase if Labour in Scotland get behind the geezer. Can I get my photo with you BIG G?' 'I agree to all that Johnny, goed la, by the way did I mention that Mark at Fruitin Travel is the fuckin business when organising astonishing holidays?'
BIG G
LIKE!
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2002
I seem to be the only one who thought her position was untenable the moment she started a relationship with an snp MSP.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Chris G Whyte
Private Member
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2008
This is the Labour party in Scotland, writ large. Rather than engaging in a debate, it's simpler to pretend it doesn't exist.
Large swathes of Scottish voters aren't fools any longer; they're better informed, and engaged, than they've ever been. I'm not appealing to emotion by pointing out that Labour have positioned themselves out of the debate in Scotland, and need to change dramatically in order to reclaim a seat on the stage. It's also not an emotional argument to highlight that Dugdale has been a complete failure as leader, assuming she takes responsibility for performance while she was in the chair.
Unless you care to disagree, and wish to present an argument to the contrary?
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2005
proof Scottish Labour and SNP in bed together :surp@
Ms Dugdale is in a relationship with SNP MSP Jenny Gilruth
Labour's Kezia Dugdale ‘was outed as gay against her will’ - BBC News
oops sorry, just saw post 2 threads above mine
Ms Dugdale is in a relationship with SNP MSP Jenny Gilruth
Labour's Kezia Dugdale ‘was outed as gay against her will’ - BBC News
oops sorry, just saw post 2 threads above mine
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2002
Outed by the right wing Labour Fabian Society. Utter fucking disgrace . These people are anti Corbyn and the move to the left in the Party. Some of their arguments were uttered by Nats on here at various times. Some are good amigos of mines on here however swayed by the so called certainties of 'reality' and the 'facts'. Back in January the Marxists gave there analysis of the Fabians (and others perspective) on events.
http://www.socialist.net/fabians-skew-report-to-undermine-corbyn.htm
BIG G
http://www.socialist.net/fabians-skew-report-to-undermine-corbyn.htm
BIG G
Jack
Private Member
- Joined
- Nov 11, 2007
I thought it was common knowledge she was gay. At least for the last 2 or 3 years.
I can't see how being gay makes any difference these days anyway. There's a long list of openly gay politicians and highly respected public figures.
I can see how hitchin up with an opposition party member in a relationship gay/straight/other relationship might cause concern.
Is anyone aware of such a thing happening before at that level? MP/MSP senior roles?
I can't see how being gay makes any difference these days anyway. There's a long list of openly gay politicians and highly respected public figures.
I can see how hitchin up with an opposition party member in a relationship gay/straight/other relationship might cause concern.
Is anyone aware of such a thing happening before at that level? MP/MSP senior roles?
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2002
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2002
I seem to remember Christine Grahame was having a relationship with a tory msp - maybe not as big news because she's not a leader or gay.
jock3
Private Member
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2012
The standing down of Kezia Dugdale can only be a good thing. She stood for the failed politics of Blairism and 'Austerity-lite'. Let's get in a proper socialist and continue to claw back some of the seats that were lost in the political vacuum temporarily filled by the SNP. Maybe see you at Easter Road a wee bit more Kez?
Jack
Private Member
- Joined
- Nov 11, 2007
What makes you suggest that?
Hibee Kev
Private Member
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2006
Seen her outside Easter Road with a Hibs scarf on the day of the cup final Beefster, waving to all the coaches as they departed - defo a Hibee!
Chris G Whyte
Private Member
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2008
It’s funny that you cite the failed politics of Blairism and austerity-lite, given that the two are quite different; personally, though, I think you have a point. She was trying to lead a group who were deeply embedded in either side of the divide, and struggled badly to reconcile the two. Blairism (depending on how you define it) isn’t necessarily a pejorative, given that the SNP are arguably the most Blairite party in Scotland, but neither it nor austerity are socialist constructs that help workers.
Personally, I think Labour in Scotland needs someone that can finally provide both a vision and a way of properly organising who in the British Labour movement is doing what. Contradictory policies make a laughing stock of the whole party. The largest example is possibly the stance on Trident; Dugdale supports it, the Scottish party doesn’t. The UK party supports it, while Corbyn doesn’t. It’s bizarre.
But I can’t quite figure out why the Labour party in Scotland are talking about it at all.
It’s a reserved matter.
If the Labour party in Scotland want to rebuild credibility, then surely they need to be focusing on devolved matters and then working their election strategies around that. In a General Election Scottish candidates should be fighting on the national manifesto, with no real input from Holyrood, while Holyrood elections should only see a manifesto that talks about devolved issues. Labour aren’t the only victims of this strange set up; the First Minister was interviewed by Andrew Neil prior to the General Election, and saw the interview utterly dominated by devolved matters that had nothing to do with the national debate. If people were influenced by what Nicola Sturgeon said about education, for example, voting for a Westminster MP would do absolutely nothing about it. A General Election is also where the SNP are unusually yet necessarily weak on matters of policy, yet Labour put no dent in their 2015 support whatsoever.
It’s embarrassing.
Jeremy Corbyn is in the possibly unique position of being able to almost do whatever he wants. It doesn’t matter how many votes of no-confidence he receives; his grassroots support makes his position rock solid. The Scottish leader would, ideally, be someone who’s beyond the back-stabbing that modern Labour appears so adept at, and would therefore be able to either persuade people toward a coherent vision or replace those who won’t conform. That vision needs to be supported by the national manifesto, and then distilled into a series of properly researched policies that work within the current framework of devolution.
I suppose what I’m trying to say here is that switching the leader won’t make a blind bit of difference if the party continues its current course of playing second fiddle to Rape-Clause Ruth and her ragtag band of sectarians. Kezia’s withering assault on Davidson regarding the rape-clause itself showed just how frightened the Conservatives are of a resurgent Labour party, and it’s something that’d blow them off the political map altogether. The SNP benches applauded her verve, and rightly so. But more banging on about how shit Scotland is, and how it’s too wee, poor and stupid to govern itself?
They may as well just fold the party and call it a day.
Scotland needs a decent Labour party that understands its role in Scotland, and what it wants to achieve. It’s catapult downwards was an artefact of modern history, but also a complete lack of a coherent worldview.
The next leader needs to understand that, and change it.
Fingers crossed.
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2006
Cos she's a politician! Never believe a word they say innit :glassraise:
Aye OK she has a ST at ER now but freely admits to not getting to many games as a politicians life is a busy life. She grew up in Elgin, a ref's daughter supporting no-one bar Ally McCoist. She used to go to Tannadice & Pittodrie in her earlier years, moves to Embra and chooses Hibs. She even calls herself a "fresh faced Hibs fan" and her highlight is the Scottish Cup Final. Which suggests to me she has never felt the hurt, grief nor humiliation that being a Hibee can sometimes bring. Not to say she won't in the future...