Sunak sets controls for the heart of the sun

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egb_hibs

egb_hibs

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Jul 2, 2002
I mean I actually don’t think it’s a bad idea, but surely it’s political suicide. If this sort of thing is Rishi’s master plan, Starmer must be pishing himself. The metropolitan liberals that he otherwise aims to serve are hardly going to want Jonty or Che rubbing shoulders with Kai and Jaydon in some grubbily patriotic endeavour!

Plot. Lost.

www.theguardian.com

Sunak promises to bring back national service for 18-year-olds

Labour lambasts youth policy as ‘desperate and unfunded’ and designed to make youngsters fix government-created problems
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
When I was at uni I went out with a Finnish lass who'd done her national service before coming over to Scotland. It basically amounted to working in the job centre for a year after she'd finished high school. Looking back she did have a more mature work ethic than most of us natives whose work experience at the time amounted to part time jobs for carry-out money through their teens.

Provided kids weren't stuffed into the military I've not really got a problem with national service per se.

That said, I don't doubt this is a cynical attempt from the Tories to get some of the "young uns don't know they're fookin born" vote.
 
The military, unless the country is in danger,should be purely voluntary, I wouldn't want to have served with somebody that didn't want to be there.
If there was some sort of civilian national service where if you hadn't tried to find a job within a certain time of leaving education you could be called upon to do some sort of work in the community that might be a worthwhile project.
 
Another cynical ploy to indoctrinate the masses into union flag waving jingoism. They have seen the youth of today reject ‘British’ (read English) nationalism and think this is how they can brainwash them into believing in a new reich empire.
Next up - spying on your family and friends who don’t endorse the mantra
 
Beagle said:
Another cynical ploy to indoctrinate the masses into union flag waving jingoism. They have seen the youth of today reject ‘British’ (read English) nationalism and think this is how they can brainwash them into believing in a new reich empire.
Next up - spying on your family and friends who don’t endorse the mantra
Click to expand...
I thought you wanted to be like Denmark and Norway?
 
egb_hibs said:
I mean I actually don’t think it’s a bad idea, but surely it’s political suicide. If this sort of thing is Rishi’s master plan, Starmer must be pishing himself. The metropolitan liberals that he otherwise aims to serve are hardly going to want Jonty or Che rubbing shoulders with Kai and Jaydon in some grubbily patriotic endeavour!

Plot. Lost.

www.theguardian.com

Sunak promises to bring back national service for 18-year-olds

Labour lambasts youth policy as ‘desperate and unfunded’ and designed to make youngsters fix government-created problems
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
Click to expand...
Jonty and his ilk wouldn't be rubbing shoulders with the plebs.
Sandhurst types.
 
Beagle said:
Another cynical ploy to indoctrinate the masses into union flag waving jingoism. They have seen the youth of today reject ‘British’ (read English) nationalism and think this is how they can brainwash them into believing in a new reich empire.
Next up - spying on your family and friends who don’t endorse the mantra
Click to expand...
See the last sentence there mate. That's what the new 'hate crime' law is about.

It's already here mate.
 
Two Headed Boy said:
When I was at uni I went out with a Finnish lass who'd done her national service before coming over to Scotland. It basically amounted to working in the job centre for a year after she'd finished high school. Looking back she did have a more mature work ethic than most of us natives whose work experience at the time amounted to part time jobs for carry-out money through their teens.

Provided kids weren't stuffed into the military I've not really got a problem with national service per se.

That said, I don't doubt this is a cynical attempt from the Tories to get some of the "young uns don't know they're fookin born" vote.
Click to expand...
I think it's a good idea. It's probably necessary for security reasons the way the world is going.

But aside from that I think it could be a great help to generations ravaged by bampot control of education, social media madness and domestic chaos. Might go some way to arresting the epidemic mental illness among the young and help to rebuild a sense of social cohesion.

But politically it's bonkers. Kamikaze stuff.
 
EH17 Jimmy said:
See the last sentence there mate. That's what the new 'hate crime' law is about.

It's already here mate.
Click to expand...
There’s a difference between reporting anyone for breaking a just law to shopping your nearest and dearest for failing to seig heil to Westminster
 
Disagree with that mate. Seig Heiling halfwit hoose down in Holyrood is just as bad.
 
Archie said:
I think Sunak's scheme is bonkers. But what foreign power would they be serving?
Click to expand...
Well, would you expect the people of Denmark to let their youth serve the likes of a greater Germany? If the Tories expect the Scottish people to once more serve the whims of a greater England (see British empire) they have another think coming.
 
egb_hibs said:
I think it's a good idea. It's probably necessary for security reasons the way the world is going.

But aside from that I think it could be a great help to generations ravaged by bampot control of education, social media madness and domestic chaos. Might go some way to arresting the epidemic mental illness among the young and help to rebuild a sense of social cohesion.

But politically it's bonkers. Kamikaze stuff.
Click to expand...
At it's heart I can see a case for some kind of volunteering scheme. But I do think an incentivised voluntary scheme is far removed from national service.

The politics of this are bizarre. Announce something on the hoof that will alienate young people and lots of Tory parents is mad. And then we have Ministers having to walk it back today by saying no one is going to jail. So it's not national service. What a mess.
 
Beagle said:
Well, would you expect the people of Denmark to let their youth serve the likes of a greater Germany? If the Tories expect the Scottish people to once more serve the whims of a greater England (see British empire) they have another think coming.
Click to expand...
I see. So you would support this in an independent Scotland?
 
Beagle said:
Well, would you expect the people of Denmark to let their youth serve the likes of a greater Germany? If the Tories expect the Scottish people to once more serve the whims of a greater England (see British empire) they have another think coming.
Click to expand...
BTW Denmark and Norway are both in NATO.
 
Beagle said:
Even in NATO countries still have the option to defend themselves against another member state.
Click to expand...
You do know how NATO works? And I take it from this you support national service in an independent Scotland?
 
egb_hibs said:
I think it's a good idea. It's probably necessary for security reasons the way the world is going.

But aside from that I think it could be a great help to generations ravaged by bampot control of education, social media madness and domestic chaos. Might go some way to arresting the epidemic mental illness among the young and help to rebuild a sense of social cohesion.

But politically it's bonkers. Kamikaze stuff.
Click to expand...
As an example, the Scandic Countries have National Service, they are all the better for it IMO.
 
Wouldn't bother me and might help a great deal, but I can see the negatives too.
Positives. Firstly it would give many youth some focus who do not have that at the moment. Many would learn new skills.
Some might learn that they are British if they live here and meet people who they normally do not associate with, away from the peer pressures they normally endure. No 17 or 18 year old or whatever age it starts at would automatically be unemployed. It would give youth a sense of what it is to work and be part of something. It might get a few of the youth away from crime or drugs. In event of a war we would have people trained to some degree which makes up a bit more ready to respond. This is not unusual, other countries like Switzerland do the same thing.


Negatives,
I am not sure it has been thought through. Have we the facilities to accommodate thousands more troops? Have we the money? What do we do with the many people who are of very low education, have little skills in respecting others? The Army do not particularly want people who do not wish to be there as low morale may ensue. Do people with convictions get in? What about people who barely speak English?


If done correctly it could be a boost to the country, if done badly there are so many ways this will blow up in their face
 
Davy said:
Wouldn't bother me and might help a great deal, but I can see the negatives too.
Positives. Firstly it would give many youth some focus who do not have that at the moment. Many would learn new skills.
Some might learn that they are British if they live here and meet people who they normally do not associate with, away from the peer pressures they normally endure. No 17 or 18 year old or whatever age it starts at would automatically be unemployed. It would give youth a sense of what it is to work and be part of something. It might get a few of the youth away from crime or drugs. In event of a war we would have people trained to some degree which makes up a bit more ready to respond. This is not unusual, other countries like Switzerland do the same thing.


Negatives,
I am not sure it has been thought through. Have we the facilities to accommodate thousands more troops? Have we the money? What do we do with the many people who are of very low education, have little skills in respecting others? The Army do not particularly want people who do not wish to be there as low morale may ensue. Do people with convictions get in? What about people who barely speak English?


If done correctly it could be a boost to the country, if done badly there are so many ways this will blow up in their face
Click to expand...
I think the military aspect is a red herring. The last thing the forces need is to babysit teenagers who don't want to be there.

Ages ago I read an article on national service in the UK. One of the unexpected positive aspects was the mixing of people from different backgrounds who would never have interacted otherwise. The suggestion was that a shared experience and spending time with each other broke down barriers.
 
Stu said:
A transparently obvious distraction ploy by the Tories to get people talking about anything other than the real issues actually affecting the UK in 2024.
Click to expand...
It's not a very good one though.
 
Beagle said:
Well, would you expect the people of Denmark to let their youth serve the likes of a greater Germany? If the Tories expect the Scottish people to once more serve the whims of a greater England (see British empire) they have another think coming.
Click to expand...
You ever met any Scottish squaddies - I would have thought you'd have had to jail a few lol
 
I don't know about all of the above,

But it would've done the fanny I was at 17/18 a world of good. Wouldn't have made all the same mistakes I'm still making up for.
 
Archie said:
You do know how NATO works? And I take it from this you support national service in an independent Scotland?
Click to expand...
In an independent Scotland we wouldn’t be fighting English wars for them. Not all nato countries are sweetness and cuddles with each other. Turkey and Greece an example. So since Scot’s have been viewed as subordinate by the English for centuries maybe any national service youths could patrol a hard border with our oldest enemy?
 
Beagle said:
In an independent Scotland we wouldn’t be fighting English wars for them. Not all nato countries are sweetness and cuddles with each other. Turkey and Greece an example. So since Scot’s have been viewed as subordinate by the English for centuries maybe any national service youths could patrol a hard border with our oldest enemy?
Click to expand...
I can't add anything to this.
 
Archie said:
I think the military aspect is a red herring. The last thing the forces need is to babysit teenagers who don't want to be there.
Click to expand...
I don’t think they’d be babysat. One upside is they get a corrective to that!
Archie said:
Ages ago I read an article on national service in the UK. One of the unexpected positive aspects was the mixing of people from different backgrounds who would never have interacted otherwise. The suggestion was that a shared experience and spending time with each other broke down barriers.
Click to expand...
Yes I think this is a good thing and I suspect the wartime incidence of that was key in the past. I mean I expect a lot of the folk who run the show have literally never socialised with a working class person. It certainly seems like it.
 
Archie said:
At it's heart I can see a case for some kind of volunteering scheme. But I do think an incentivised voluntary scheme is far removed from national service.
Click to expand...
Sorry to back to back responses to your posts, but out of sequence, but this picks up the point in the previous. Why should it be incentivised, or even voluntary ? It seems to me we have absolutely lost the notion of responsibilities underpinning rights, and it’s pretty ruinous.
Archie said:
The politics of this are bizarre. Announce something on the hoof that will alienate young people and lots of Tory parents is mad. And then we have Ministers having to walk it back today by saying no one is going to jail. So it's not national service. What a mess.
Click to expand...
Now that I agree with and was the original point. It seems utterly mental.
 
Beagle said:
Another cynical ploy to indoctrinate the masses into union flag waving jingoism. They have seen the youth of today reject ‘British’ (read English) nationalism and think this is how they can brainwash them into believing in a new reich empire.
Next up - spying on your family and friends who don’t endorse the mantra
Click to expand...
We’ve already got that in Scotland.
 
paigntonhibby said:
The military, unless the country is in danger,should be purely voluntary, I wouldn't want to have served with somebody that didn't want to be there.
If there was some sort of civilian national service where if you hadn't tried to find a job within a certain time of leaving education you could be called upon to do some sort of work in the community that might be a worthwhile project.
Click to expand...
I suspect the leadership of both main parties - assuming they have any grip on reality at all, which tbf may be an unsound assumption - and of the military expect there to be conflict within Europe within the adult lives of today’s teenagers. Probably more likely internal than an invasion from outside or whatever.

They’re probably getting ready for that, while national service might in itself be a measure to help prevent it by mixing young people from all walks of like and helping to reknit the social fabric.

The public however, is not at all ready for it, fed as we are on narratives that avoid our structural issues as much as they can. I therefore think this is absolutely bonkers on Sunak’s part.
 
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