Should the French have banned veils?

[Brainwrong]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_full_length_Islamic_veils

There are plenty French Muslims, about 5 million I think. That could cause serious issues, alienating that amount of folk. These folk already live in France, shirley they've got a right to dress how they want?

I reckon these veils are wrong, controlling & repressive, they're a recent phenominon in Islam as far as I'm aware which adds to their bawbaggery. But, I can't see this banning as being the right approach to combatting the negative aspects of Islam or its interpretation.

I reckon it'll only cause further issues & millitancy.

Thoughts?

 

[am_moroccan]

they are banning Niqab or Khimar which hides the face and not Hijab that shows it, My POV on this is that France should respect the freedom of its citizens of wearing what they like, some of us could agree and other may disagree about it for some reasons but forcing people not to wear what they like is a bit undemocratic law. There thousands and thousands of French citizens living in Morocco and they could wear whatever they want, even sometimes it comes against our culture/tradition rather than Islamic views. France values under Sarkosy has lost its credibility, they have recently expelled roma citizens which is a disgrace.

 

[SPorter]

I think wearing veils does repress women but one on my biggest concerns would be that rather than liberating them, they might end up being out of public view altogether - confined to the home.

 

[Briant]

This was the ad at the top of the page when I opened it;

Which one do you fancy?

 

[whiskas]

This was the ad at the top of the page when I opened it;

Which one do you fancy?

Aye I got that ad too! Looks like you beat me to it :dali:

Back to the question at hand I think banning the veil in this manner is a really stupid idea- it may or may not be a symbol of female opression but I fail to see how restricting freedom further is going to help matters?

 

[Green Sleeves]

Veils are supposed to cover hair so dont see what the problem is. Women of all religions and none have been wearing headresses for centuries.

As for any man who makes his wife cover her entire face in public - that is so fucking offensive. I was on a 30 bus recently and a woman with full face thing asked me if the bus turned round at the Plaza and came back into town. She was sitting next to her pal, also wearing face mask. The guy who obviously thought he owned her then started giving her a hard time for talking to an infidel. WTF?? These guys are just jealous paranoid pricks.
Its got fuck all to do with Islam.

In saying that, a state ban? Given the current level of anti-Muslim hysteria in the west? That's a different matter.

 

[persevered]

My problem with it is the misogynistic, repressive nature of it.

Any woman who has been told it is a virtuous thing to do since they were a child will end end up believing it and wear it on the rationale of 'it's my choice'.

That does not conceal the nasty, oppressive, underlying reason why women are forced to wear it. A fair compromise I think, you live in a country where covering the face is seen as disingenuous then you should adopt the general customs of the country.

When western women go to Muslim countries, they cover up, this shows respect for Muslim culture.

 

[SPorter]

Veils are supposed to cover hair so dont see what the problem is. Women of all religions and none have been wearing headresses for centuries.

As for any man who makes his wife cover her entire face in public - that is so fucking offensive. I was on a 30 bus recently and a woman with full face thing asked me if the bus turned round at the Plaza and came back into town. She was sitting next to her pal, also wearing face mask. The guy who obviously thought he owned her then started giving her a hard time for talking to an infidel. WTF?? These guys are just jealous paranoid pricks.
Its got fuck all to do with Islam.

In saying that, a state ban? Given the current level of anti-Muslim hysteria in the west? That's a different matter.

I might have been confusing veils with burkhas and suchlike again - my previous point is aimed at the covering of the face (or most of it) rather than just the head.

My problem with it is the misogynistic, repressive nature of it.

Any woman who has been told it is a virtuous thing to do since they were a child will end end up believing it and wear it on the rationale of 'it's my choice'.

That does not conceal the nasty, oppressive, underlying reason why women are forced to wear it. A fair compromise I think, you live in a country where covering the face is seen as disingenuous then you should adopt the general customs of the country.

When western women go to Muslim countries, they cover up, this shows respect for Muslim culture.

Some good points. Although I don't see it as a case of respecting Islamic or Christian/western culture or adopting the customs of the country. It's more to do with the underlying reasons of blatant sexism. If men expect women to cover up like this then perhaps they should do the same in respect of equal rights.

 

[BurbankHibee]

When western women go to Muslim countries, they cover up, this shows respect for Muslim culture.

I very much doubt that a "western" woman when visiting muslim countries cover up to show respect.

 

[am_moroccan]

I very much doubt that a "western" woman when visiting muslim countries cover up to show respect.

They dont, except in Iran where they are told to do so, I can say in Saoudi Arabia too with less conditions. During Ramadan most of Muslim women do wear a respecting clothes, I see westerners here wearing their own choice clothes which may sometimes let Muslims being nervous of looking to them, but it is still their right to wear what they want.
In term of freedom,I dont know If you 'bouncers' would classify Taliban forcing some of their women to wear Burqah in the same level as French government forcing their citizens not to wear Niqab.

 

[Smurf]

French have it right. Multiculturalism will only ultimately work IMO if folk respect and tolerate the existing populations way of life. Work within it and not seek to alien themselves within it.

 

[egb_hibs]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_full_length_Islamic_veils

There are plenty French Muslims, about 5 million I think. That could cause serious issues, alienating that amount of folk. These folk already live in France, shirley they've got a right to dress how they want?

I reckon these veils are wrong, controlling & repressive, they're a recent phenominon in Islam as far as I'm aware which adds to their bawbaggery. But, I can't see this banning as being the right approach to combatting the negative aspects of Islam or its interpretation.

I reckon it'll only cause further issues & millitancy.

Thoughts?

I raged on here years ago about their moves to ban headscarves on state premises. I continue to believe this is the worst kind of control state bollocks. However I believe that face veils are different; an obstacle to social integration and indeed anti social. With great reluctance, I consider this to be one of the cases where state interference is justified.

As to social problems; failure to achieve social integration is what will cause it. It's a difficult call but I think veils are a bigger problem their than banning them.

 

[am_moroccan]

I also dont understand how women wearing Niqab can not be integrated or well communicating in the west while they do it here.

 

[egb_hibs]

I also dont understand how women wearing Niqab can not be integrated or well communicating in the west while they do it here.

I can't remember the percentage Ab, but people that study these sort of things believe that the majority of our communication is done with body language and facial expression rather than simply what we say. A face cover, be it a veil or anything else, is a barrier to that and at least in western eyes, depersonalises the wearer.

Is there much veil wearing in morocco? My impression is that this is an arabian thing that is not really part of wider muslim culture until recently. Is that right?

 

[am_moroccan]

I can't remember the percentage Ab, but people that study these sort of things believe that the majority of our communication is done with body language and facial expression rather than simply what we say. A face cover, be it a veil or anything else, is a barrier to that and at least in western eyes, depersonalises the wearer.

Is there much veil wearing in morocco? My impression is that this is an arabian thing that is not really part of wider muslim culture until recently. Is that right?

There some women wearing Niqab here and it is increasing in recent years, not the Afghan one but the black/brown one that shows eyes,yes this is an eastern one,but along Morocco history there different kinds of Niqab, It differs from area to another one, even it wasnt called Niqab but other names, it's colorful, used by elder women in most of time. The main point here is that most of time it s woman choice relating to her level of belief.

 

[Kurt]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_full_length_Islamic_veils

There are plenty French Muslims, about 5 million I think. That could cause serious issues, alienating that amount of folk. These folk already live in France, shirley they've got a right to dress how they want?

I reckon these veils are wrong, controlling & repressive, they're a recent phenominon in Islam as far as I'm aware which adds to their bawbaggery. But, I can't see this banning as being the right approach to combatting the negative aspects of Islam or its interpretation.

I reckon it'll only cause further issues & millitancy.

Thoughts?

I don't think so. If you agree its a form of tyrnanny then it just replaces the tyranny of religion/culture or whatever with the tyranny of the state.

It would be quite an unBritish thing to do but it fits with the French view of the primacy of the state and the church/mosque so not entirely surprising.

 

[egb_hibs]

There some women wearing Niqab here and it is increasing in recent years, not the Afghan one but the black/brown one that shows eyes,yes this is an eastern one,but along Morocco history there different kinds of Niqab, It differs from area to another one, even it wasnt called Niqab but other names, it's colorful, used by elder women in most of time. The main point here is that most of time it s woman choice relating to her level of belief.

Do you mean religious or cultural 'belief'; this is not a muslim thing, right? I read - dont know if it is true, that in the prophet's time men and women worshipped together and he got rid of a lot of pagan arab stuff that seems to have since been re-adopted by arabian islamic societies and from there onward.

my understanding is that the koran - or perhaps the hadith, forgive my ignorance - suggests that women should cover there hair and shoulders but not their face?

 

[am_moroccan]

Do you mean religious or cultural 'belief'; this is not a muslim thing, right? I read - dont know if it is true, that in the prophet's time men and women worshipped together and he got rid of a lot of pagan arab stuff that seems to have since been re-adopted by arabian islamic societies and from there onward.

my understanding is that the koran - or perhaps the hadith, forgive my ignorance - suggests that women should cover there hair and shoulders but not their face?

I mean religious belief, The Quran says women should cover, It does'nt specify either to show the face or not, so here the interpretations of the verse differ, some says the face should be covered and others say no need for it, but what is obvious is the hair should be covered and there is no doubt about this... and Here where the woman choice takes place, If she wants to use Niqab then she can do it If not so only Hijab (hair cover ) is enough. and Most of those ( ex :98%)who put Niqab are married women, girls don't need it as long as they havent got married yet.
The culture side is for example about the type of clothes, in Pakistan it s not the same as in Morocco or in Malaysia ( the main thing is to be covered ).

when the prophet came as you said, he got rid of many wrong stuff, women were oppressed and used in different bad things, also families were ashamed having girls rather than boys etc, they even buried them alive.
so the misconceptions of non muslims are that Islam is oppressing women etc, but they havent known how women were living before the message of Islam appeared. Even women were invisible in Europe during dark ages.

 

[Bill Oddies Beard]

I mean religious belief, The Quran says women should cover, It does'nt specify either to show the face or not, so here the interpretations of the verse differ, some says the face should be covered and others say no need for it, but what is obvious is the hair should be covered and there is no doubt about this... and Here where the woman choice takes place, If she wants to use Niqab then she can do it If not so only Hijab (hair cover ) is enough. and Most of those ( ex :98%)who put Niqab are married women, girls don't need it as long as they havent got married yet.
The culture side is for example about the type of clothes, in Pakistan it s not the same as in Morocco or in Malaysia ( the main thing is to be covered ).

when the prophet came as you said, he got rid of many wrong stuff, women were oppressed and used in different bad things, also families were ashamed having girls rather than boys etc, they even buried them alive.
so the misconceptions of non muslims are that Islam is oppressing women etc, but they havent known how women were living before the message of Islam appeared. Even women were invisible in Europe during dark ages.

So it's men telling women to cover up and not their own choice? That's the way it seems to me. Islam does oppress women and there's no getting away from that.

Do you think women should cover up?

 

[egb_hibs]

. Even women were invisible in Europe during dark ages.

You've gone too far their Ab. Women in Europe have never had to go around covering themselves up, and while their lot has certainly improved in recent years, I'm not sure there was ever a time when we were behind the arab / muslim world in terms of the place of women.

 

[Jack]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_full_length_Islamic_veils

There are plenty French Muslims, about 5 million I think. That could cause serious issues, alienating that amount of folk. These folk already live in France, shirley they've got a right to dress how they want?

I reckon these veils are wrong, controlling & repressive, they're a recent phenominon in Islam as far as I'm aware which adds to their bawbaggery. But, I can't see this banning as being the right approach to combatting the negative aspects of Islam or its interpretation.

I reckon it'll only cause further issues & millitancy.

Thoughts?

There may be about 5 million French Muslims but I suspect there will only be a few hundred, if that, affected by this ruling. As AM says there's nothing in the Quran to say the face should be covered up and its only a small sect(???) that insist.

The French, while being a totally obnoxious (sweeping statement alert :rascal about so many things and particularly foreigners recently, do have a point. We live in a time when security is heightened (and with all due respect) this clothing has been used by terrorists to make good their escape (London 7/7). It also circumvents all the photo style ID checks, for example travel passes.

Everyone, in every country in the world, has had to make changes to the way we go about our lives as a result of terrorism and, in some cases IMO, terrorism has been used as an excuse to make life difficult.

There's more of this to come around the world. I wouldnt be surprised if more countries started building huge walls round their borders and didnt let anyone in, a bit like Albania, or more likely some countries will close their borders to all citizens of certain countries, anyone already in will be expelled.

 

[am_moroccan]

So it's men telling women to cover up and not their own choice? That's the way it seems to me. Islam does oppress women and there's no getting away from that.

Do you think women should cover up?

Your sentence above is non-sense and shows how some thoughts really stick in your mind BOB, I always wished you could change a bit your way of thinking about Islam and Muslims.
I tried not to give more explanations about this because I know someone will jump and here you are ! Some women do wear niqab after marriage because of Decency and modesty, as long as they get married they would not like to get in contact with foreigners and NOT because their husbands forced them to do so. I my self know a girl wants to wear Niqab, she loves it and she has't got married yet, even her father opposed her decision. you know why? because these women are proud of what they choose. This will not be accepted by yourself just as these women will not be accepting some lowest level of moral some women in the west living in ( you know this and I dont think you need to remind you).

 

[am_moroccan]

You've gone too far their Ab. Women in Europe have never had to go around covering themselves up, and while their lot has certainly improved in recent years, I'm not sure there was ever a time when we were behind the arab / muslim world in terms of the place of women.

, you got it wrong EGB,I didnt mean they were covering lol, but their rights.

 

[Kurt]

You've gone too far their Ab. Women in Europe have never had to go around covering themselves up, and while their lot has certainly improved in recent years, I'm not sure there was ever a time when we were behind the arab / muslim world in terms of the place of women.

Different in different parts of Europe as well. Certainly, the anglo-saxon tradition in Germany, parts of the low Countries, England and the south east of scotland, they could be pretty prominant largely assisted by a cultural tradition of small families.

Does the Koran ACTUALLY say they have to cover their hair. Bible says a whole load of stuff which is ignored too. Many muslim women in UK don't cover their hair - probably not very ibservant ones admittedly.

 

[am_moroccan]

Different in different parts of Europe as well. Certainly, the anglo-saxon tradition in Germany, parts of the low Countries, England and the south east of scotland, they could be pretty prominant largely assisted by a cultural tradition of small families.

Does the Koran ACTUALLY say they have to cover their hair. Bible says a whole load of stuff which is ignored too. Many muslim women in UK don't cover their hair - probably not very ibservant ones admittedly.

Kurt, beside Quran there is Sunnah which is Ahadeeths ( sayings ) of the prophet, Quran says women should cover and Ahadeeths came to complete it and insist that women should cover their hair and there is no doubt about this all scholars agreed about it. Another example how Sunnah complete the Quran, we are told to pray in Quran but how this comes in sunnah.

Mary peace be upon her were wearing the veil just as it is described in some churches. I am not sure she was showing her hair.

 

[alnewhaven]

Like egb, Ive read that this is a tradition of certain Arabian/N African tribes rather than a requirement of the Koran.

Also believe there was/is a group where the men covered their faces too , Tuareg(?) though I assume that was more for protection against sun/sand/ dust.

Re the French policy, this could backfire as nothing like banning something to make it a rallying point, rather like the kilt post 1745. I suspect it has been adopted by some individuals already to make a political stance ( I think the school teacher who made the headlines a few years ago had only recently adopted a full veil )

 

[Bill Oddies Beard]

Your sentence above is non-sense and shows how some thoughts really stick in your mind BOB, I always wished you could change a bit your way of thinking about Islam and Muslims.
I tried not to give more explanations about this because I know someone will jump and here you are ! Some women do wear niqab after marriage because of Decency and modesty, as long as they get married they would not like to get in contact with foreigners and NOT because their husbands forced them to do so. I my self know a girl wants to wear Niqab, she loves it and she has't got married yet, even her father opposed her decision. you know why? because these women are proud of what they choose. This will not be accepted by yourself just as these women will not be accepting some lowest level of moral some women in the west living in ( you know this and I dont think you need to remind you).

Why is it nonsense? You said that 98% of women who wear the niqab are maried. I take that to mean that the husbands have the right to make 'their' women cover up.

Why is it only foreigners that women do not like to get in contact with?

I shall repeat the question that you evaded while having a we rant. Do you think women should cover up?

 

[am_moroccan]

Why is it nonsense? You said that 98% of women who wear the niqab are maried. I take that to mean that the husbands have the right to make 'their' women cover up.

Why is it only foreigners that women do not like to get in contact with?

I shall repeat the question that you evaded while having a we rant. Do you think women should cover up?

Wearing Niqab is a matter which is discussed between the husband and wife, Of course there are exceptions of men whom want their wives to wear it, but it is still a decision of the women themselves, The main reason behind women wearing it is their belief, secondly married women are wearing it because they want their families to be conservative, I mean by foreigners not Europeans but every strange person to their families, again that's not a kind of oppression as you may think but it s up to their belief and the way of life they are choosing . we can not call something we choose and desire an oppression right?. If you think Women are oppressed please explain to me why most of Muslim reverts are women?
Sorry about forgetting your question, This should be directed to the woman herself as long as it s her choice, for me as Muslim I would like to see muslim women covering as they are told to do so, what kind Niqab,Hijab? ... it's up to them.

 

[Bill Oddies Beard]

Wearing Niqab is a matter which is discussed between the husband and wife, Of course there are exceptions of men whom want their wives to wear it, but it is still a decision of the women themselves, The main reason behind women wearing it is their belief, secondly married women are wearing it because they want their families to be conservative, I mean by foreigners not Europeans but every strange person to their families, again that's not a kind of oppression as you may think but it s up to their belief and the way of life they are choosing . we can not call something we choose and desire an oppression right?. If you think Women are oppressed please explain to me why most of Muslim reverts are women?
Sorry about forgetting your question, This should be directed to the woman herself as long as it s her choice, for me as Muslim I would like to see muslim women covering as they are told to do so, what kind Niqab,Hijab? ... it's up to them.

I would think that they have got in tow with a Muslim man who demands that she changes religion. There ye go, that's how my mind sees Muslim men.

Well, it sees them like that and also flying about on magic carpets.

 

[barney]

Well, it sees them like that and also flying about on magic carpets.

:laff:

classic BOB.

 

[am_moroccan]

I would think that they have got in tow with a Muslim man who demands that she changes religion. There ye go, that's how my mind sees Muslim men.

Well, it sees them like that and also flying about on magic carpets.

I wont full this thread with videos explaining why they choose Islam and If you are interested send a PM.

Magic carpets are better than your airlines and Muslim men are hot then yours, Maybe that s the answer you may agree with.
:worthy

 

[Kurt]

Kurt, beside Quran there is Sunnah which is Ahadeeths ( sayings ) of the prophet, Quran says women should cover and Ahadeeths came to complete it and insist that women should cover their hair and there is no doubt about this all scholars agreed about it. Another example how Sunnah complete the Quran, we are told to pray in Quran but how this comes in sunnah.

Mary peace be upon her were wearing the veil just as it is described in some churches. I am not sure she was showing her hair.

Thanks. That's helpful.

I wonder if, in your part of the world, you see more secular muslims like we do here. BTW who makes the Moroccan wine? Its lovely stuff (trust me)!!

 

[Bill Oddies Beard]

I wont full this thread with videos explaining why they choose Islam and If you are interested send a PM.

Magic carpets are better than your airlines and Muslim men are hot then yours, Maybe that s the answer you may agree with.
:worthy

That's because we don't hijack your magic carpets and fly them into buildings, killing thousands of innocent people.

To be honest, I've never thought of any man as 'hot'. If you do then I'm afraid you may not last long in an Islamic country!

 

[Kurt]

I would think that they have got in tow with a Muslim man who demands that she changes religion. There ye go, that's how my mind sees Muslim men.

Can think if similar conversions to other religions in the name of love - Judaism and Catholicism in particular.

 

[am_moroccan]

Thanks. That's helpful.

I wonder if, in your part of the world, you see more secular muslims like we do here. BTW who makes the Moroccan wine? Its lovely stuff (trust me)!!

Here you find all different kind of Muslims from strict/conservative ones to a normal to those who doesn't even care.
you there do not see the good side of it in most of time, maybe there lack of communication with Muslims plus how the media spreading the misconceptions. Remember that we were hit too in Casablanca and we all condemn this which Islam has nothing to do with .

Moroccan wine are made in the mid area of Morocco in a city called Meknes just near Fez. there few companies over there.

 

[am_moroccan]

That's because we don't hijack your magic carpets and fly them into buildings, killing thousands of innocent people.

To be honest, I've never thought of any man as 'hot'. If you do then I'm afraid you may not last long in an Islamic country!

You dont need to hijack our magic carpets because you have all rights to break UN resolutions and using your F16 to bombard innocent people in different Muslim countries.

 

[Kurt]

Here you find all different kind of Muslims from strict/conservative ones to a normal to those who doesn't even care.
you there do not see the good side of it in most of time, maybe there lack of communication with Muslims plus how the media spreading the misconceptions. Remember that we were hit too in Casablanca and we all condemn this which Islam has nothing to do with it.

Moroccan wine are made in the mid area of Morocco in a city called Meknes just near Fez. there few companies over there.

I work with and have muslim friends but that is more common in London which is more of a melting pot - none of them are strict/conservative, though. What I don't have is a persepective on muslim countries. Morocco has a reputation for being pretty open and accepting of difference. Saudi does not.

 

[am_moroccan]

I work with and have muslim friends but that is more common in London which is more of a melting pot - none of them are strict/conservative, though. What I don't have is a persepective on muslim countries. Morocco has a reputation for being pretty open and accepting of difference. Saudi does not.

Saudi arabia is a conservative country where Muslim holy sites are, there you wont see open bars or nightclubs in their streets, and you wont get an easy access to wine etc, but there is still foreigners from America,Europe and east Asia living there and most of them for purpose of work, I myself been in Jaddah which is a touristic city, it s lovely city with a long cornich and huge hotels etc.. in Riyad you find many westerners working in Oil companies, they have made a small cities for them which looks like American districts watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1t4ue-WmlU

 

[egb_hibs]

What is the attitude to wine / alcohol in morroco and indeed in islam generally Ab? Is it forbidden?

I heard a story once - possibly rubbish - that when some long gone tsar of russia was looking to adopt a religion for his people he chose christianity over islam because it allowed him to carry on drinking alcohol! as i say, possibly rubbish, but i quite like the idea of history turning on such little things!

 

[am_moroccan]

What is the attitude to wine / alcohol in morroco and indeed in islam generally Ab? Is it forbidden?

I heard a story once - possibly rubbish - that when some long gone tsar of russia was looking to adopt a religion for his people he chose christianity over islam because it allowed him to carry on drinking alcohol! as i say, possibly rubbish, but i quite like the idea of history turning on such little things!

Wine is forbidden in Islam, not only drinking it but also selling,working in it, even holding it... and everyone who did this is sinful . here in Morocco in Big cities where foreigners are you can buy it easily, it is in small shops and also in big super markets also in hotels and nightclubs,all kind of wines, Moroccans are also buying it illegally from some illegal vendors.. Everyone could buy it . I am not sure about this but in Moroccan law it is only available for non Muslims but everyone could have it now.