- Joined
- Oct 3, 2002
Lads,
This is from the Cowshed forum but I thought it was worth moving across to our wee message board (also, because I'd like to have to hand to read it again when I feel like it).
Basically, the first bit below is from the Scotland newspaper letters page.....
"Ian Lewis (Letters, 21 April) asks me to provide "one shred of evidence" that the constituency of Hibernian FC is defined in religious terms. Rather than one shred, allow me to give him two planks - their name and their strip colour.
Any club formed for Irish immigrants which, in name and colours, continues to flaunt its Irish connections will, inevitably, attract fans from one side of the religious divide.
If the will existed to end this association, then a change of name to, say, Scotia FC and the adoption of neutral colours would plant the seeds of transition. It goes without saying that they would have to avoid names or colours suggestive of the opposite creed.
I fail to understand why any Scottish club has to adopt the symbolism of a foreign country and a particular religion. At least Hibs, unlike their Glasgow counterparts, do not now fly an alien flag over the stadium. Thats a start.
JOHN McNEIL
Morningside Street
Glasgow"
Here's the fecking incredible reply 'Lord_Notsnooty' offa the Bounce sent:
"I read with interest John McNeil's suggestion that the word "Hibernian"
defines a religious "plank" in the constituency of Hibernian FC as does
the colour green.
Myth tells us that Hiber was the son of Princess Scotia and Gaedholos.
According to Nennius and Manetho these characters were ousted from
Egypt at the end of Akhenaten's reign and fled from their city of
Heliopolis to Spain (Iberia) where they "tarried" then moved on to
Ireland, their sons Hiber and Hymac eventually settling on that island.
Further movement saw the Scots/Scyths move to what was then Caledonia
which eventually became modern Scotland. The Declaration of Arbroath
makes mention of these legends without going into specfics.
The "Scots", after "Scotia" (leader of the Scyths), "Gaels" after
"Gaedholos" and "Hibernians", after "Hiber", are therefore, mythologically
speaking, the same peoples with religion not even getting a look in -
unless we theorise that they were followers of Akhenaten's monotheastic
revolution. This is of course in the realms of the fairy story and without
corroborating evidence but not as fanciful as Mr McNeil's view that Hibernian
Football Club defines it's constituency by religion by employing that name
or indeed wearing green. For Mr McNeils peace of mind Ill inform him that
the Latin usage of "Hibernian" dates from pre-Constantinian times.
Another piece of fantasy from Mr McNeil is his claim that Hiberian only
attract "fans from one side of the religious divide". Many Protestants
support and have supported Hibernian but what I have personally found
is that fans' religion is only ever an issue to some outwith the club,
perfectly illustrated by Mr McNeil's ignorance of the make-up of Hibs'
fan-base coupled with his certainty when expressing his views without any
factual evidence. One revealing item in his letter is that he feels
he has to refer to a "divide" in religious terms regarding the Hibs
support, as far as I know the Hibs support is united - in its support
for a sporting institution. Religion does not enter that equation. Unless
they are to be seen as representative of Akhenaten's Monotheastic Revolution, the last time I looked however that movement wasn't represented in the sectarian chants and slogans which foul Scottish Football grounds.
If the colour Green is to be seen as a "plank" of Hibs "religious constituency"
someone should inform the plethora of North African muslim countries who use the colour for their national teams. We wouldn't want anyone getting confused as to which religion the colour represents in Mr McNeil's mind.
Mr McNeil claims that the absence of any alien flags at Easter Road
is "a start" whereas in fact to find the start of Hibernians integration into
Scottish society you only need look as far as the clubs founding member,
Michael Whelahan, who was born in Ireland played for Scotland and was proud
of both facets. This pretty much sums up where Hibs are now, proud of who
we are, Scottish, but also proud of where the club came from. Only those
who see sectarianism where there is none will be confused by this frame of mind.
What I learned from the letter is that there are people in Scotland who
wish to see bigotry everywhere other than their own doorstep, and it
is to be defined by them in terms which stretch any boundaries of
common sense. If a colour and abstract word plucked from mythological
obscurity is to be seen as "religious planks" in the constituency of
Hibernian FC all I can say is Mr McNeil is groping around for an axe to
grind and finding himself clutching at straws.
Yours
K. McMillan
Edinburgh"
This is from the Cowshed forum but I thought it was worth moving across to our wee message board (also, because I'd like to have to hand to read it again when I feel like it).
Basically, the first bit below is from the Scotland newspaper letters page.....
"Ian Lewis (Letters, 21 April) asks me to provide "one shred of evidence" that the constituency of Hibernian FC is defined in religious terms. Rather than one shred, allow me to give him two planks - their name and their strip colour.
Any club formed for Irish immigrants which, in name and colours, continues to flaunt its Irish connections will, inevitably, attract fans from one side of the religious divide.
If the will existed to end this association, then a change of name to, say, Scotia FC and the adoption of neutral colours would plant the seeds of transition. It goes without saying that they would have to avoid names or colours suggestive of the opposite creed.
I fail to understand why any Scottish club has to adopt the symbolism of a foreign country and a particular religion. At least Hibs, unlike their Glasgow counterparts, do not now fly an alien flag over the stadium. Thats a start.
JOHN McNEIL
Morningside Street
Glasgow"
Here's the fecking incredible reply 'Lord_Notsnooty' offa the Bounce sent:
"I read with interest John McNeil's suggestion that the word "Hibernian"
defines a religious "plank" in the constituency of Hibernian FC as does
the colour green.
Myth tells us that Hiber was the son of Princess Scotia and Gaedholos.
According to Nennius and Manetho these characters were ousted from
Egypt at the end of Akhenaten's reign and fled from their city of
Heliopolis to Spain (Iberia) where they "tarried" then moved on to
Ireland, their sons Hiber and Hymac eventually settling on that island.
Further movement saw the Scots/Scyths move to what was then Caledonia
which eventually became modern Scotland. The Declaration of Arbroath
makes mention of these legends without going into specfics.
The "Scots", after "Scotia" (leader of the Scyths), "Gaels" after
"Gaedholos" and "Hibernians", after "Hiber", are therefore, mythologically
speaking, the same peoples with religion not even getting a look in -
unless we theorise that they were followers of Akhenaten's monotheastic
revolution. This is of course in the realms of the fairy story and without
corroborating evidence but not as fanciful as Mr McNeil's view that Hibernian
Football Club defines it's constituency by religion by employing that name
or indeed wearing green. For Mr McNeils peace of mind Ill inform him that
the Latin usage of "Hibernian" dates from pre-Constantinian times.
Another piece of fantasy from Mr McNeil is his claim that Hiberian only
attract "fans from one side of the religious divide". Many Protestants
support and have supported Hibernian but what I have personally found
is that fans' religion is only ever an issue to some outwith the club,
perfectly illustrated by Mr McNeil's ignorance of the make-up of Hibs'
fan-base coupled with his certainty when expressing his views without any
factual evidence. One revealing item in his letter is that he feels
he has to refer to a "divide" in religious terms regarding the Hibs
support, as far as I know the Hibs support is united - in its support
for a sporting institution. Religion does not enter that equation. Unless
they are to be seen as representative of Akhenaten's Monotheastic Revolution, the last time I looked however that movement wasn't represented in the sectarian chants and slogans which foul Scottish Football grounds.
If the colour Green is to be seen as a "plank" of Hibs "religious constituency"
someone should inform the plethora of North African muslim countries who use the colour for their national teams. We wouldn't want anyone getting confused as to which religion the colour represents in Mr McNeil's mind.
Mr McNeil claims that the absence of any alien flags at Easter Road
is "a start" whereas in fact to find the start of Hibernians integration into
Scottish society you only need look as far as the clubs founding member,
Michael Whelahan, who was born in Ireland played for Scotland and was proud
of both facets. This pretty much sums up where Hibs are now, proud of who
we are, Scottish, but also proud of where the club came from. Only those
who see sectarianism where there is none will be confused by this frame of mind.
What I learned from the letter is that there are people in Scotland who
wish to see bigotry everywhere other than their own doorstep, and it
is to be defined by them in terms which stretch any boundaries of
common sense. If a colour and abstract word plucked from mythological
obscurity is to be seen as "religious planks" in the constituency of
Hibernian FC all I can say is Mr McNeil is groping around for an axe to
grind and finding himself clutching at straws.
Yours
K. McMillan
Edinburgh"