Protecting our children from us

[Bossie]

When the number of Scottish kids subject to online sex abuse is this large, it's a changing male culture we need as the justice system can't touch the sides

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[egb_hibs]

Not going to happen Bossie. If we cared that much about children there would have been no sexual revolution, or certainly not the sprawling destroyer of any norms that it has morphed into.

 

[Bossie]

Are you blaming women for men being child abusers?

 

[EH17 Jimmy]

Not how I read eegies post. The way I interpreted it was as social norms were swept away we now have extreme porn at the touch of a button.

No boundaries type scenario.

 

[Two Headed Boy]

I think better education for parents and children about the dangers of the internet is the key.

The saddest thing about it is having to have difficult conversations with increasingly younger kids. I have a nine year old daughter and it isn't something I'm looking forward to, but the day I have to cave and get her a smartphone and a tablet that isn't the restricted kiddie one I got her off Amazon is drawing near. I want her to be safe online though, so a chat about the ugly content, and uglier souls, lurking on there is one we're going to have to have.

To @egb_hibs point, I think the issue is the technology, not society, if stoat the baws in the 60s and 70s had broadband they'd be doing this sort of thing instead of touching up kids they had access to. Sexual revolution or not.

 

[EH17 Jimmy]

The twins are now 13 and got their mobile phones. But my lassie checks the phones all the time for content.

In one way it's good that I can have a wee group on WhatsApp with them.

They are haud it and daudit and I'm OG (original grandad).

My eldest granddaughter though never really had her phone monitored. A couple of incidents happened and one had the bizzies involved.

But she is now 18 so technically an adult.

 

[egb_hibs]

Are you blaming women for men being child abusers?

No. What an extraordinary conclusion. Or maybe you aren’t taking the subject as seriously as your OP suggests?

 

[egb_hibs]

I think better education for parents and children about the dangers of the internet is the key.

The saddest thing about it is having to have difficult conversations with increasingly younger kids. I have a nine year old daughter and it isn't something I'm looking forward to, but the day I have to cave and get her a smartphone and a tablet that isn't the restricted kiddie one I got her off Amazon is drawing near. I want her to be safe online though, so a chat about the ugly content, and uglier souls, lurking on there is one we're going to have to have.

To @egb_hibs point, I think the issue is the technology, not society, if stoat the baws in the 60s and 70s had broadband they'd be doing this sort of thing instead of touching up kids they had access to. Sexual revolution or not.

The reality is kids that don’t live with their biological father are hugely more at risk - not of course that some of the latter aren’t quite capable of abuse. And of course not just from sexual predation either.

Then there is premature sexualisation, a hyper sexualised culture, and lately the utter madness inflicted on them in schools and via social media.

Not just kids that suffer of course; women too and many men for that matter.

If we have decided it’s a price worth paying then that’s on us. But mostly it’s just swept under the rug. Like black lives, kids matter until it gets inconvenient.

 

[emerald green]

Not how I read eegies post. The way I interpreted it was as social norms were swept away we now have extreme porn at the touch of a button.

No boundaries type scenario.

Then eegies talking shoite.

 

[Purple & Green]

Quite a paradox the hyper sexualized culture with the total fertility rate in -perhaps - terminal decline.

I remember reading an article that the rate of murder of children has remained steady in the last fifty years despite the movement towards an ultra safe society. The underlying point being that perpetrators go to greater lengths now, and being “safer” doesn’t change the number.

I’d guess that perhaps the number in the opening post is just an underlying rate, and the way the perpetrators act is just changing and more identifiable.

I don’t think the way we as a society treat the most vulnerable members of our society is great though, but, I suppose that’s true across all species in the animal kingdom?

 

[EH17 Jimmy]

This cvnt here used to drink with us up in the Crags when wee Tracey had the place.

He was making plans to go to Thailand with some other lads.

He lived in Moredun flats.

Then this story broke. The evil rodent will now be in another scheme somewhere.....

Edinburgh student caught with film collection including children being murdered

Neil Hansen, 54, downloaded a “depraved” collection of films of young children being abused after meeting fellow sickos in an online chat room.

www.google.co.uk

 

[Purple & Green]

There’s a lot to unpack in that opening post and the 150k figure

Is it male on female abuse, male on male, female on male, female on female? The proportions would be enlightening.

Also is it children abusing other children? Proportion would be helpful.

I’ll watch the programme at some point.

I think I’m fortunate in that I went to a school in an enlightened era where respect for all was drummed into us at an early age. This was the 70s and 80s, but I’ve seen some things since that are frankly attitudes of long ago.

 

[Purple & Green]

https://archive.vn/moCUi

Read this, this morning. I can’t comprehend .

 

[EH17 Jimmy]

It just seems to get sicker and sicker. How do we as a society combat that though?

Are draconian sentences for fuckers like her the answer?

 

[egb_hibs]

Quite a paradox the hyper sexualized culture with the total fertility rate in -perhaps - terminal decline.

It’s not really a paradox I don’t think; it’s been turned into a form of recreation and entertainment. That goes hand in hand from separating it from messy consequences and implications.

 

[Two Headed Boy]

The reality is kids that don’t live with their biological father are hugely more at risk - not of course that some of the latter aren’t quite capable of abuse. And of course not just from sexual predation either.

Well quite. Two thirds of abusers are male relatives but you wouldn't advocate that as a reason for single mother households.

There have been massive abuse scandals in places where family breakdown has nothing to with it too but I think we should be concentrating on how we keep kids safe rather than making the same tedious arguments on this topic.

Evil bastards have always existed, they are the real problem.

 

[hibbybilly]

Well quite. Two thirds of abusers are male relatives but you wouldn't advocate that as a reason for single mother households.

There have been massive abuse scandals in places where family breakdown has nothing to with it too but I think we should be concentrating on how we keep kids safe rather than making the same tedious arguments on this topic.

Evil bastards have always existed, they are the real problem.

Castrate the cvnts.

 

[egb_hibs]

Well quite. Two thirds of abusers are male relatives but you wouldn't advocate that as a reason for single mother households.

Well no you wouldn't as it's one of the most at risk environments they can be in.

There have been massive abuse scandals in places where family breakdown has nothing to with it too but I think we should be concentrating on how we keep kids safe rather than making the same tedious arguments on this topic.

Evil bastards have always existed, they are the real problem.

Well that's the comfortable answer and not untrue as far as it goes. But the reality is we have taken a scythe to the cultural structures whereby humans contained human nature and children pay the price, in all kinds of ways including vulnerability to sexual predation.

Of course there are other contributory factors but the OP was about taking cultural measures to address the problem. I'm not persuaded we care enough to do that.

Also criminals are made as well as born and family breakdown adds to the number of predators as well as the number of victims.

 

[Two Headed Boy]

Well no you wouldn't as it's one of the most at risk environments they can be in.

Women being empowered to take themselves and their children away from abusive husbands and fathers will have saved many from the kinds of high risk environments that were absolutely swept under the carpet in your romanticised past.

Well that's the comfortable answer and not untrue as far as it goes. But the reality is we have taken a scythe to the cultural structures whereby humans contained human nature and children pay the price, in all kinds of ways including vulnerability to sexual predation.

It's the comfortable answer because it is true.

Using pedophilia as the end of every slippery slope to justify socially conservative views is as predictable as it is gross in my opinion.

It's also really unhelpful in fixing anything.

 

[egb_hibs]

Women being empowered to take themselves and their children away from abusive husbands and fathers will have saved many from the kinds of high risk environments that were absolutely swept under the carpet in your romanticised past.

I’m not romanticising the past, I’m talking about the reality of the present. Of course there were problems in the past and there are worse problems now.

It's the comfortable answer because it is true.

Yes human nature guarantees bad apples. Humankind has evolved mechanisms and structures to contain the impact of that and minimise the production of more. In our wisdom we’ve torn a lot down and children pay the price.

Taken in isolation of the latter it’s a comfortable answer as it absolves us from responsibility. And that’s been my theme on this thread; we aren’t really serious about these things.

Using pedophilia as the end of every slippery slope to justify socially conservative views is as predictable as it is gross in my opinion.

It's also really unhelpful in fixing anything.

I’m simply talking about the facts of life. I appreciate they are not particularly welcome in the progressive world view, because they so reliably expose it. Nevertheless they are what they are.

I’m not justifying anything, I was simply responding to the OPs call that we need to change our culture to protect children. If that is really the case, then we already know a large part of the answer. But I don’t think we really want to.

As I’m sure you know the literature in this area is extensive with finding after finding however it may not innately be welcomed by academia, and abuse is just one facet of it.

You can refer to your faith articles all you like, and as is the way of progressive rhetoric, try and turn it into an argument about other abstract things. It doesn’t change the facts and I’m simply talking things as they empirically and demonstrably are.

If you want to talk about gross, these self serving narratives are pretty gross in my opinion. You can call social constructs that benefit and protect children ‘conservative’ if you like. Who cares really? The important thing is they are social constructs that benefit and protect children.

You don’t seem so inflamed by the call to change ‘male culture’ whatever the feck that means. Possibly because it means nothing ? Men may have been the gainers in all this, the worst kind of men in particular, but I’m not sure there is any such thing as male culture.

 

[Two Headed Boy]

You can refer to your faith articles all you like, and as is the way of progressive rhetoric, try and turn it into an argument about other abstract things. It doesn’t change the facts and I’m simply talking things as they empirically and demonstrably are.

If you want to talk about gross, these self serving narratives are pretty gross in my opinion. You can call social constructs that benefit and protect children ‘conservative’ if you like. Who cares really? The important thing is they are social constructs that benefit and protect children.

I'm sorry, but bringing up the sexual revolution as a reason for online abuse 60 years later is as abstract as it gets.

As I said earlier, education is the way to protect children in the actual reality they live in. Personal and Social Education is woefully out of date on this stuff. It needs modernising.

Faith articles, social constructs, self serving narratives.... Cliche away mate, but it it just all reads like padding for a non-point.

You don’t seem so inflamed by the call to change ‘male culture’ whatever the feck that means. Possibly because it means nothing ? Men may have been the gainers in all this, the worst kind of men in particular, but I’m not sure there is any such thing as male culture.

Honestly, that's largely because I'm not sure what he meant either.

I'll go back to my point though, I don't think changing culture is a realistic goal whatever angle it's coming from because nobody will agree about what needs changed. It's all about education.

 

[egb_hibs]

I'm sorry, but bringing up the sexual revolution as a reason for online abuse 60 years later is as abstract as it gets.

No it’s not, it’s affected permanent changes that will continue to have an affect, permanently. What a strange contention.

As I said earlier, education is the way to protect children in the actual reality they live in. Personal and Social Education is woefully out of date on this stuff. It needs modernising.

No it isn’t. Kids are saturated in this alongside bollocks that is a form of predation itself.

The empirical picture is clear about how kids are best protected from all manner of ills, including abuse. Not perfect of course, nothing is. But we don’t get to do what the fuck we like and make it ok by tasking teachers with cleaning up the mess.

Faith articles, social constructs, self serving narratives.... Cliche away mate, but it it just all reads like padding for a non-point.

Ok let’s turn it around. All the evidence points to the fact that children not living with their biological father are at much greater risk of all manner of things. If, per the op, we are to address problems with sexual predation by addressing male culture, that’s where we should start. As you said yourself, the bad guys will always be there, so it’s about how do we protect against them.

We arent serious about that is my contention, because it puts too many constraints on us, and men in particular. You introduced a political framing, and if you want to do that, I’ll address its role.

Honestly, that's largely because I'm not sure what he meant either.

I'll go back to my point though, I don't think changing culture is a realistic goal whatever angle it's coming from because nobody will agree about what needs changed. It's all about education.

How can education do anything do address the fact that bad guys just exist, as you said yourself ? I mean it has a role, in a ‘how to spot a bad guy’ sense, but it’s woefully inadequate on its own.

 

[Two Headed Boy]

No it’s not, it’s affected permanent changes that will continue to have an affect, permanently. What a strange contention.

Yes it is. You're bringing up something that happened before the invention of the internet in relation to online predation. We're not going back. Accept and adapt.

No it isn’t. Kids are saturated in this alongside bollocks that is a form of predation itself.

The empirical picture is clear about how kids are best protected from all manner of ills, including abuse. Not perfect of course, nothing is. But we don’t get to do what the fuck we like and make it ok by tasking teachers with cleaning up the mess.

People can live their lives and protect their kids without moral policing and societal pressure to structure their family in a certain way. Education absolutely has a role to play. Not once did I suggest it should replace parenting.

Ok let’s turn it around. All the evidence points to the fact that children not living with their biological father are at much greater risk of all manner of things. If, per the op, we are to address problems with sexual predation by addressing male culture, that’s where we should start. As you said yourself, the bad guys will always be there, so it’s about how do we protect against them.

We arent serious about that is my contention, because it puts too many constraints on us, and men in particular. You introduced a political framing, and if you want to do that, I’ll address its role.

Your contention isn't serious though. What are you wanting to do, reverse engineer society by 60 years? And to what end? It doesn't change what's on the internet. It doesn't stop abusers existing. You're in cloud-cuckoo-land.

This needs solutions not rhetoric and dreams.

How can education do anything do address the fact that bad guys just exist, as you said yourself ? I mean it has a role, in a ‘how to spot a bad guy’ sense, but it’s woefully inadequate on its own.

That's the main concept yeah.

 

[egb_hibs]

Yes it is. You're bringing up something that happened before the invention of the internet in relation to online predation. We're not going back. Accept and adapt.

No it really isn’t and it’s completely bizarre to suggest otherwise. If society has chosen a course that makes children more vulnerable to all manner of things, including predation online and IRL then society needs to own what it has done and mitigate or course correct.

Accept and adapt? Well let’s see some acceptance and then let’s see some adaptation.

People can live their lives and protect their kids without moral policing and societal pressure to structure their family ina certain way. Education absolutely has a role to play. Not once did I suggest it should replace parenting.

I don’t disagree, I just think its efficacy is minimal.

Your contention isn't serious though. What are you wanting to do, reverse engineer society by 60 years? And to what end? It doesn't change what's on the internet. It doesn't stop abusers existing. You're in cloud-cuckoo-land.

Our refutation of nature is doing a lot more than making kids more vulnerable. It’s well on the way to collapsing the welfare state and society as anyone alive today has known it. I’m under no illusions as to its reversibility, but it’s not me that’s in cloud cuckoo land as the world is busy demonstrating. Children are just one casualty of the fact we as a society have chosen to locate ourselves there.

I’m not arguing we don’t need other mitigation strategies in the context of our choices. You keep overlooking the fact that the post you picked up on to begin with with was a response to ‘fixing male culture’. Marriage and the family did that long ago, in any human society that scaled beyond the village. It is in that context, that we already have the answer.

But again, I’ve said since making the point that I don’t believe for a minute we’d do it, because we aren’t really serious about such things and we also don’t care enough. I’m sorry but I’ve said nothing at all from cloud cuckoo land, quite the opposite, I’ve been emphasising realism throughout and the fatuity of proposing fixes per the OP.

This needs solutions not rhetoric and dreams.

Again, I’m pointing to the proven fix that enabled civilisation to exist and I’m acknowledging that we will not pick it up again as we don’t care enough about this or other things, versus buffing our egos. That is not rhetoric and it certainly isn’t dreamy. We are on this train till it goes off the cliff it’s fast approaching; I’d contend that few are under less illusion than me on that front.

That's the main concept yeah.

Well it misunderstands the problem. I was watching an interview with a woman the other day, who was groomed as a child by these gangs in northern England, and has now been re-groomed as an adult. Forget being told stuff by a teacher, she had lived it.

She knew what was what from lived experience, and fell into it again. Because these people play to the psychology of the vulnerable and damaged. You don’t get to damage people and make them vulnerable, than consider your hands clean by getting teachers to tell them some things that don’t address what causes these problems.