Project fear: flawed and partisan

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...t-predictions-flawed-partisan-new-study-says/

Cambridge uni reckon earnings up, housing crisis eased from brexit (once it happens). That said all economists seem little more than readers of chicken entrails and tarot cards these days - about the only solid thing one can take from this is the propgandic nature of the 1%er campaign.

Putting Project Fear in the headline suggests an element of partisanship, no? Having said that, a lot of what they were saying was clearly nonsense. A bit like the 350m claim and the impending Turkish horde from the other camp.

And 7-15% drop in inward investment still looks pretty bad to me. Still, fingers crossed.

The thing that is going to annoy me the most is the replacement of EU law with UK statutes. Mostly they will just cut and paste but it'll still need writing and ratifying. So we'll end up with the same rules but have spent millions on lawyers and parliament time. Oh but at least it'll be tried in UK courts? Well it already was. So net change zero.

Admittedly they'll be able to change some stuff. Which will of course be orders of magnitude more expensive and time consuming. At least we'll finally be rid of these straight bananas and the protections on working hours which we'd, um, opted out of anyway.
 
I don't think it's partisan to call it project fear when it blatantly was. I voted remain but can't abide the tosh pouring from a rattled establishment.

I read a history of c20 over the hols which reminded me of my own reasons for voting remain and indeed the positive side of globalisation which you have pointed out recently. To be reminded of the work done by European Christian democrats and the effect of opening of markets in repairing the damage done in a century of slavery, slaughter and poverty wrought by utopian statism, was quite poignant.

The eu has its roots in that, although arguably has been coopted by the descendants of those utopians to deleterious effect.
 
All we have had is a vote...nothing else.
We haven't even started the "negotiations" yet. Until that starts and we start getting some clarity from the UK government nobody will be able to forecast anything accurately.
 
All we have had is a vote...nothing else.
We haven't even started the "negotiations" yet. Until that starts and we start getting some clarity from the UK government nobody will be able to forecast anything accurately.

Absolutely correct, but for now it has been announced today that the UK has the top performing economy amongst advanced countries, going up after Brexit.
 
Absolutely correct, but for now it has been announced today that the UK has the top performing economy amongst advanced countries, going up after Brexit.

Which is good news for now...but as I said we have not had Brexit yet. Let's see how the economy performs when we start negotiating with the EU and trying to get "favourable terms". It will also be interesting to see that when Britain actually does leave the EU (and I still have doubts it will TBH) and people's living standards start being affected by high inflation, house prices dropping, unemployment etc, let's see how that changes public opinion especially down south with many leave voters down there fooled into thinking Britain is now going to be going into some sort of 1950's golden age. When people's livliehoods and standards of living start being affected it will be interesting to see how the mood amongst the leavers changes. I think this is also going to be interesting in Scotland. There has been no increase in support for Scottish independence as yet since the vote, however as I say nothing has happened yet..but when the full implications of leaving the EU and the single market (if we actually do) start affecting people's pockets in Scotland it will be interesting to see how people think about paying higher prices, jobs being cut, property prices declining etc due to the Brexit vote....but wait a minute ?..we didn't vote for this ? but our standard of living is being badly affected because of how another country voted ? I think then there will be an increase in support for independence. It won't be for a few years though.
 
You're assuming the standard of living is going to drop which as you say is an unknown. Its just as likely to improve - certainly for the kind of people who voted leave as opposed to the fat cats. Scotland may not have voted for it - though more Scots voted leave than for the snp at last election I believe, so we can overstate this - but the impact on England of voting for Indy will not stop us. Our economy is also propped up by the English tax payer so we are in a slightly unreal position - and I say this as a yes and remain voter.

I voted remain for reasons of peace between nations rather than economics, although the two are related. I've no idea what brexit will bring economically but if I had to stick my neck out I'd forecast a decrease in wealth polarisation; with the wealthy taking a hit and the poor being better off.

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Ps the eu may also collapse anyway in which case we may have a first mover advantage.
 
All we have had is a vote...nothing else.
We haven't even started the "negotiations" yet. Until that starts and we start getting some clarity from the UK government nobody will be able to forecast anything accurately.

To be fair they did say the economy would tank straight after the vote and it's that that they are admitting was wrong. But I agree there's a long road to travel and I doubt it'll be as easy as it has been when the real changes start happening.
 
You're assuming the standard of living is going to drop which as you say is an unknown. Its just as likely to improve - certainly for the kind of people who voted leave as opposed to the fat cats. Scotland may not have voted for it - though more Scots voted leave than for the snp at last election I believe, so we can overstate this - but the impact on England of voting for Indy will not stop us. Our economy is also propped up by the English tax payer so we are in a slightly unreal position - and I say this as a yes and remain voter.

I voted remain for reasons of peace between nations rather than economics, although the two are related. I've no idea what brexit will bring economically but if I had to stick my neck out I'd forecast a decrease in wealth polarisation; with the wealthy taking a hit and the poor being better off.

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Ps the eu may also collapse anyway in which case we may have a first mover advantage.

Its oft repeated in respect of our economy and it being propped up by the English taxpayer... im not sure the present Scottish Economy is doing as well as it would be if England and Wales and NI weren't part of us.

We are simply not performaing to our potential as a nation and, personally I think there would be massive opportunities and huge growth in Scotland without the shackles of, lets face it, England. Our economy is performing how it is because of what it is part of, surely!
 
Its oft repeated in respect of our economy and it being propped up by the English taxpayer... im not sure the present Scottish Economy is doing as well as it would be if England and Wales and NI weren't part of us.

We are simply not performaing to our potential as a nation and, personally I think there would be massive opportunities and huge growth in Scotland without the shackles of, lets face it, England. Our economy is performing how it is because of what it is part of, surely!

I agree which is one reason I'm a yes voter. However I have always been uncomfortable that yes was promoted with a lot more improbable stuff than brexit, namely 'more state'. The reality would have to be the opposite which would in the longer term be a good thing. If people want to be kept and looked after by a big paternal state they should be voting to stay in the U.K.
 
Reasons to be Cheerful 1, 2, 3.....(not) .....from Socialist Appeal yesterday. No project fear but a fairly reasonable assessment of what may happen in the next period.



Within the next three months, the Brexit negotiations with the European Union will officially start. The plan is to leave within two years, nothing more, nothing less. “Brexit means Brexit” according to Theresa May. We are told that there will be either “soft” Brexit, where Britain has access to the Single Market or “hard” Brexit, where we don’t. However there is a more probable third option: “train-crash” Brexit, where there is a failure to reach a deal and Britain crashes out of the European Union – with chaotic and drastic consequences.

The recent resignation of Sir Ivan Rogers, Britain’s ambassador to the EU, has highlighted the chaos in Westminster and Whitehall over Brexit, exposing the internal tensions and cracks that go all the way to the top.

Rogers - generally seen as a pragmatist - quit after warning last month that it would take a decade to negotiate such a deal with Britain. Not two, but ten years!

According to John Pienaar, the BBC deputy political editor, “Sir Ivan's leaked farewell memo can fairly be read as a protest and a warning. Concern is growing among some high-ranking officials that ministers don't understand or won't admit the scale of the task they're facing.”

May and her three Brexiteers - David Davis, Boris Johnson, and Liam Fox - are now scrabbling to calm nerves and regain a semblance of control with the appointment of senior diplomat, Sir Tim Barrow, as Rogers’ replacement. But Barrow will face all the same contradictions in the Brexit negotiations as his predecessor.

A torturous divorce.

Both soft and hard Brexit assume that there will be a well-managed, amicable divorce. But for many sound reasons, especially political, this looks very unlikely.

Firstly, the negotiations will be torturous, given the difficulty in picking apart 40 years of legal, economic and trading relationships. Secondly, the idea that all this can be wrapped up in two years and a new deal ratified is frankly wishful thinking. A deal will need the unanimous agreement of all 27 member states. We should recall how difficult it was for an EU trade deal with Canada to pass, even after many years of planning. Even then, this deal was almost scuppered by a regional government of Belgium and was only averted in the nick of time.

There is political deep-seated resentment on both sides of the Channel. The Europeans want to make it decidedly painful for the UK to leave, so as to set an example to others. On the other hand, Britain’s demands over immigration – a key question - are considered impossible by Europe, given EU rules. These frictions will not simmer down, but become more entrenched. Mutual acrimony will quickly increase. Talks could easily break down irretrievably.

“The flashpoint is likely to be the EU’s estimate of Britain’s financial liabilities following Brexit,” explains the astute Gideon Rachman in the Financial Times, “covering everything from money already pledged to the union’s budget to the pensions of retired bureaucrats. The estimates in Brussels are that the UK will be facing a bill of 50bn-60bn euros.”

As soon as such figures are officially announced, it will provoke outrage in Britain. The EU will stick to its ground for the last penny. There will be those here who will seek a more flexible arrangement to pay any such sums over a long period. But the hardliners inside the Tory Party – the aging hang ‘em, flog ‘em brigade - will be blowing their tops and the right-wing press will be foaming at the mouth, all of which will make Mrs May’s previous balancing act untenable. If she does not reflect decisively and openly, she risks an open split in the Tory Party and the collapse of the government. She is stuck between a rock and a hard place.

The unstoppable tides

Britain under such conditions, the negotiations could collapse, with Britain walking out. The matter could then go to the International Court of Justice at The Hague, but a decision there could take years. Everything would be deadlocked. The idea of extending the negotiations beyond the two years would become very improbable. As anger rises on both sides, they would be on a “train-crash” course.

Under the circumstances, the campaign by Tony Blair, former UK prime minister, to undo Brexit is probably the most ridiculous idea of all. He would have less chance than King Canute’s famous efforts to stop the tides.

The train-crash Brexit would see Britain facing tariffs of 10% and more. Nearly 50% of Britain’s exports presently go to the European market. With new custom barriers, pan-European supply chains would be badly affected, hitting manufacturing especially hard. The service sector would also be affected, with financial services losing “passport rights”, essential if they are to do business across the EU. This would push the British economy into a deep slump, with trade falling and unemployment rising.

Leaving this scenario aside, the forecast by the Office for Budget Responsibility said that Brexit would have severe economic consequences. This was underlined by Wilbur Ross, the billionaire businessman chosen by the US president-elect Donald Trump as his new trade chief, who said earlier this year that Brexit represented a “God-given opportunity” for other countries to take business away from the UK. Capitalism is a dog-eat-dog world, where the weakest are gobbled up by the strong. British capitalism would be badly mauled.

War of attrition

The May government’s strategy is to hope for the best. But one senior civil servant was more realistic. “It’s going to be bloody,” he said, “but we’re just going to have to bash on through and get to the other side.” But in this war of attrition with the EU, the British side will need a lot more than this Dunkirk spirit. They are tobogganing towards disaster with their eyes closed, to quote the pre-war words of Trotsky.

A train-crash departure and slump in Britain would also have serious implications for the European economy, which has been in and out of recession since 2010. “In the eurozone, political leaders found it expedient to muddle through the banking crisis and then a sovereign debt crisis — only to find Greek debt is unsustainable and the Italian banking system is in serious trouble,” writes the Financial Times columnist Wolfgan Munchau. “Eight years on, there are still investors out there betting on a collapse of the eurozone as we know it.”

With this in mind, negotiations will not last two years. The EU might not exist in the next period. Brexit would have been simply the beginning of the end for the bloc.

The post-war consensus is already in tatters. The capitalist crisis has served to undermine the whole edifice. We have entered into a new epoch of crisis and instability, with 2017 offering to be even more fraught than last year.