"outwith" outwith the English language

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hibadelic

hibadelic

Radge-a-Casblanca
Private Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2003
I had no idea that the word "outwith" is not used outwith Scotland,until today. I'm sure I've posted before about words like this that you just presume are normal English words.
 
Never thought about that before!

So I put ‘outwith’ in a search of the BBC site. For the first few pages only Scottish results, could be bothered after that.

Searched the New York Times site. There have been 203 mentions since 1851, most of which are typos. Two however caught my eye.

EDINBURGH: FESTIVE AND STEADFAST
[not quite half way down, but you'll want to read it all!]
Finally, outwith the city proper (just to flash a little local usage at you) there is the Sheep's Heid in Duddingston village. ...
February 21, 1982

EUROPEAN NEWS.;
[See column 2]
Advices by Ocean Telegraph to Oct. 17. Financial ...
Since the discovery of stores of liquid fire and other Fenian combustibles in Liverpool, a repentant And now ex-Fenian has come outwith a - Ion. ...
October 18, 1866

:detective:
 
hibadelic said:
I had no idea that the word "outwith" is not used outwith Scotland,until today. I'm sure I've posted before about words like this that you just presume are normal English words.
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True, outwith is unlikely to be used or heard outwith Scotland. Maybe sounds a bit pedantic at first but what are "normal English words"? The ones from England, the US? I mean there are words you will only hear in British English or in US English or Irish English or Australian English or whatever. There are many variants of English today so "normal" probably doesn't mean that much unless we are talking about some basic vocabulary that is used everywhere.

I'm just about to read a book which argues that there are so many variants of English nowadays, that it should now be classified as a branch of languages rather than a single language. That's to say we could talk about the English Languages in the same way we talk about Romance Languages (Latin based, ie French, Italian, Spanish, etc.).

You'll find more examples of the kind of thing you're looking for in the Lexical Scotticisms on this link.

Wikimedia Error

Some people might be surprised for instance, as I once was, that "pinkie" will draw some blank looks down south. Also, "janitor" is an interesting one as it is used by the Scots and the Americans while the English usually opt for "caretaker".
 
English folk have been confused when drink receptacles have been referred to as tumblers. I didn't realise this was a Scottish term until about 10 years ago.
 
hibadelic said:
I had no idea that the word "outwith" is not used outwith Scotland,until today. I'm sure I've posted before about words like this that you just presume are normal English words.
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I've always considered 'outwith' a peculiarly Scottish word. I don't think I've heard it down here in England. I think it's a great and very useful word!

Breaksandbeats said:
English folk have been confused when drink receptacles have been referred to as tumblers. I didn't realise this was a Scottish term until about 10 years ago.
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Not so sure about this one. I'm probably not the best person to judge because in the family home I grew up in there was a great mishmash of both Scottish and (Nottingham) English words and expressions. I do feel that most English folk know exactly what a tumbler is and that it is sometimes used.
 
One day when I was working in London I happened to remark that at lunchtime I was going to get some messages. My colleagues assumed I meant actual messages from someone and were quite tickled when I explained that your messages was the same as your shopping.
 
Dub said:
One day when I was working in London I happened to remark that at lunchtime I was going to get some messages. My colleagues assumed I meant actual messages from someone and were quite tickled when I explained that your messages was the same as your shopping.
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Yes, that's a good one. Definitely a Scottish use of "messages" that.
 
I've not done that much traveling outside of Scotland and when I have done it's generally been with Scottish family or friends so a few of those words being Scottish only are a surprise to me.

Words that you can use in an English document that has to be able to be understood internationally.
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Considering how many words there are in the "english" language there are a huge number of perfectly good words which aren't understood by anyone, never mind internationally.
:mrgreen:
 
A Scottish Gaelic word that most folk dinnae ken is Gaelic is "glamour". One of the few Gaelic words to cross over into English.
 
Dub said:
One day when I was working in London I happened to remark that at lunchtime I was going to get some messages. My colleagues assumed I meant actual messages from someone and were quite tickled when I explained that your messages was the same as your shopping.
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Same. When I first started going out with my partner she thought I was a drug dealer since I kept on mentioning that I was going for messages!

Another particularly amusing one was suggesting that she clapped a cat. Utter confusion as she wanted to know what the cat had done which deserved applause. Apparently clap is only used in Scotland in the context of petting an animal and nowhere else...

Juice is apparently only used in Scotland (and more specifically East Scotland) as a generic term for all non-alcoholic cold drinks (except water).

Mind is Scottish only when it means remember.

Bevvy is used absolutely nowhere else than Scotland and is a great word which can be used as noun or verb interchangably. Suspect it is French in origin since bvee means drinking.

Scotland is the only place in the world where calling someone a cunt can be a term of affection. All depends on the adjective to modify it beforehand, or tone of voice. That's really not the case anywhere else...
 
wee 162 said:
Same. When I first started going out with my partner she thought I was a drug dealer since I kept on mentioning that I was going for messages!

Another particularly amusing one was suggesting that she clapped a cat. Utter confusion as she wanted to know what the cat had done which deserved applause. Apparently clap is only used in Scotland in the context of petting an animal and nowhere else...

Juice is apparently only used in Scotland (and more specifically East Scotland) as a generic term for all non-alcoholic cold drinks (except water).

Mind is Scottish only when it means remember.

Bevvy is used absolutely nowhere else than Scotland and is a great word which can be used as noun or verb interchangably. Suspect it is French in origin since bvee means drinking.

Scotland is the only place in the world where calling someone a cunt can be a term of affection. All depends on the adjective to modify it beforehand, or tone of voice. That's really not the case anywhere else...
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Clap the cat :rollfloor Nice one.

I did once advocate on here that instead of "For he's a jolly good fellow" we Edinburghers [Dunedins if you like] should sing "For he's no a bad ****" It's odd that we consider that word, dependant upon use, as an add on to a compliment.

Dreep is one of my favourite words. I don't think it fits the category here though as there is unlikely to be a similar word in engerland with a different meaning.
 
Shurrup yor lot and don't be such daft boggers.

Stop prattin abaht and tek a look ere. Gerron wi it nah!

more_nottingham_lingo_270.jpg


A charming Nottingham couple

A Guide to Nottingham English
 
Once got strange looks when an english mate o mine asked where somethin in the kitchen was and a said . . . Oan the bunker !
(Posted fae ma mobile fone)
 
Tatie said:
Once got strange looks when an english mate o mine asked where somethin in the kitchen was and a said . . . Oan the bunker !
(Posted fae ma mobile fone)
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Was that in the scullery mate?
 
Green Sleeves said:
A Scottish Gaelic word that most folk dinnae ken is Gaelic is "glamour". One of the few Gaelic words to cross over into English.
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do you perhaps mean

galore: gu leoir (as in enough/plenty)

also from Gaelic
smashing: as in thats great ('s math sinn)
brogue: brog (shoe)
gillie: gille (lad or servant)

i also think that excellent word smidgen is derived from Gaelic but i cant remember the spelling
 
What about a toe-rag? Or a sub [on your wages]? We had an English girl working in the office many, many years ago. In the pub on a Friday lunchtime she was teased mercilessly. No less when after a week when these two things were mentioned she asked what they were, a type of old slipper? (or should that be baffies?) and why would anyone want a submarine? I kid ye not. A fine example of an English university education. :laff:

... and East Lothian has a language of its own; gibby – stick; joogle – dug; pannie – river. So you could take the joogle doon the pannie tae fling and bring a gibby! Mibi??? … not sure about any of the spelling.

And lets not go up, or round, the coast to the fishing ports! :gaga2:

Alas poor Dorric, no one knew it well.
 
I've never heard 'outwith' used doon here. And what about 'internationalist' instead of 'international'? I think we use the language correctly in both cases.
 
Scottish folk use the word "how" when other English speakers will say "why"

took my Irish wife ages to figure that one out and still finds it funny.
 
gun ainm said:
do you perhaps mean

galore: gu leoir (as in enough/plenty)

also from Gaelic
smashing: as in thats great ('s math sinn)
brogue: brog (shoe)
gillie: gille (lad or servant)

i also think that excellent word smidgen is derived from Gaelic but i cant remember the spelling
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My dictionary in the hoose says "glamour" comes from an old Scots word ("gramarye")- meaning magic spell. I'd always thought "glamour" came from an old Scots Gaelic word rather than an old Scots word. But there ye go. Bounce's resident Gaelic speakers shed any further light?
 
'He had went...' is an expression you're never going to hear in England!
 
Stu said:
'He had went...' is an expression you're never going to hear in England!
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Ah, grammar is another question entirely.

eg Scots ( and Irish) have the perfectly legitimate "youse" as second person plural, while English has "You" for both singular and plural.
 
Theres a cracking bit in the book Sunset Song by Lewis Grassic Gibbons (sp) Where they are debating the demise of Scots lexicon. The one bit that I can remember is where they are discussing gloaming (as in roaming in) the nearest they could come to it was twilight which is nowhere near as descriptive. Scunnered and plook are two of my own faves :banana

This is actually a pet subject of mine. The anglicisation of Scots dialect and I have to say Embra is particularly guilty. Anyhoo any fecker that says lunch is in for a right smacking. Its fucking dinner time ya trumpet. And tea time is not when you have dinner. You get yer tea and as for supper two slices of roasted cheese its the ferkin law. I would introduce food police if I was in power and any **** that broke any of the aforementioned rules would be strung up by the clacker bag in a public place and suffer ritual humiliation. Aye even if it was a girly.:boxing::boxing:

and breathe :coffee:
 
wee 162 said:
Same. When I first started going out with my partner she thought I was a drug dealer since I kept on mentioning that I was going for messages!

Another particularly amusing one was suggesting that she clapped a cat. Utter confusion as she wanted to know what the cat had done which deserved applause. Apparently clap is only used in Scotland in the context of petting an animal and nowhere else...

Juice is apparently only used in Scotland (and more specifically East Scotland) as a generic term for all non-alcoholic cold drinks (except water).

Mind is Scottish only when it means remember.

Bevvy is used absolutely nowhere else than Scotland and is a great word which can be used as noun or verb interchangably. Suspect it is French in origin since bvee means drinking.

Scotland is the only place in the world where calling someone a cunt can be a term of affection. All depends on the adjective to modify it beforehand, or tone of voice. That's really not the case anywhere else...
Click to expand...

I've got a habit of explaining the many ways @@$@ can be used in Embra every time I meet someone from outwith of here.

Love how it can be a term of endearment or just a random 'some @@$@' description of someone.

My wife hates me doing it, I once spent a good hour explaining it to her Italian family...she was mortified.

They didn't seem to mind...good kants!

:thumbgrin
 
years ago my mum asked my English mate if he wanted some French toast,didnt know what it was and when it was described to him,he called it eggy bread!
 
I think I remembered what my original thread was and it was "squint" as in "that picture on the wall is squint."

I didn't realise that no-one said that outside Scotland until I was about 22.
 
hibadelic said:
I think I remembered what my original thread was and it was "squint" as in "that picture on the wall is squint."

I didn't realise that no-one said that outside Scotland until I was about 22.
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:shock:

I'm fecking 35 and didn't know that till I just read it!
 
hibadelic said:
I think I remembered what my original thread was and it was "squint" as in "that picture on the wall is squint."

I didn't realise that no-one said that outside Scotland until I was about 22.
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Don't you mean skew wheef :dunno:
 
Interesting. The thread has now branched out quite a bit into areas like abbreviations, grammar, the Scots and Gaelic languages and local words.

Outwith is a strange one as it is clearly a compound of two English words - out and with - yet is unique to Scotland.

I would question whether some of the words on here are uniquely Scottish though. A quick check of the Collins English dictionary tells me that tumbler (meaning recipient) is there with no particular mention of Scotland. Clap is also mentioned as a synonym of "pat", eg clap someone on the shoulder, and squint has the synonyms "askew" and "aslant" so I think we can probably just dismiss those as instances where individuals were unfamiliar with words that people would've expected them to know rather than being Scottish usage.

Juice (for soft drinks in general) I think I have heard in England but I may be wrong. Then we come to what are basically abreviations: tranny (transistor radio), sub from subsidy I expect (can also be an abbreviation of submarine or substitute of course) and bevvy from beverage. The latter does sound quite Scottish but I'd be surprised if the others are not used outwith Scotland.:wink: The easiest way to check I guess is to ask somebody who has never spent much time in Scotland if they cna give you a sub or if the kids would like some juice (for coke, lemonade etc) and see what kind of reaction you can get. Another thing that needs to be taking into account though is words slipping out of fashion. I'd guess that tranny (in the radio sense) is unlikely to be understood by many under 30 for obvious reasons.

Glen and loch are another couple of Gaelic words which you will find in English dictionaries and you will also find words of gaelic origin which crossed over or were adapted in Scots, eg "breeks" from the Gaelic breoghais (I think that's how you spell it, apologies if not) for trousers. In short, all languages that come into contact with each other influence each other. There is no such thing as a pure, unchanging language. English continues to borrow words from other languages - how many people in the UK these days don't know what a siesta is? I bet quite a few of you use it in your English speech.

On the subject of "he had went", "I have wrote", etc (should be gone and written in Standard English of course) this is perfectly correct in Scots grammars (I am speaking of the Scots language not English), so I thought it was a uniquely Scottish usage. As I teach English abroad, I pay particular attention to changing patterns in English media reports as i have to keep up to date, and I'm sure I've heard this use of "have went, have came," etc from a few English people recently. I think in England it would certainly be considered bad grammar, but in Scotland we have the excuse of influence from another language. I don't doubt that this structure is a lot more common in Scotland and I hear it all the time when listening to the fitba on Radio Scotland.

I share LP's concerns about Scots being eroded and losing some of its extensive vocab to English but historically speaking at least, Scots was a separate language from English and is today recognised as one by the European Council for Minority Languages even if the UK govt (and many members of the Scottish govt) keeps rather quiet about this. Maybe best not to get started on the language/dialect question but suffice to say there is no consensus among linguists on what differenciates one from the other. It often comes down to political rather than linguistic issues and there's certainly some truth in the famous saying that "a dialect is a language without an army or a navy". In the popular mind a dialect is inferior to a language so worth thinking about that if you call Scots a dialect. In saying that, people have mentioned Doric which for me is a dialect of Scots, and some dialect words from East Lothian have also been mentioned.
 
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