November Budget

[emerald green]

We have the Autumn Budget on the 26th November.

What are you all hoping for?

Any curve balls incoming?

Hearing pensions to rise.

Anything you think must happen?

 

[hibbybilly]

I remember when all we had tae worry about at Budget time was a penny on a pint and 8p on a packet of fags.
Rachel is probably at this time daein u-turns on policies she thought up on Friday.

 

[blue toon hibby]

I remember when all we had tae worry about at Budget time was a penny on a pint and 8p on a packet of fags.
Rachel is probably at this time daein u-turns on policies she thought up on Friday.

Well with the hospitality sector seemingly on its knees, another penny a pint in Rachel’s purse won’t do them any good. I’d like to see the Windfall Tax on oil companies binned before they pull out altogether from the North Sea and send thousands more men and women overseas to work, avoiding uk tax.

 

[aggie]

What are you all hoping for?

For her to really level with the public, and tell everyone that the party is over -- we must reappraise our expectations around the way we live, and what we expect to give and receive. To state plainly that the boomers represented the zenith in terms of societal Ts & Cs, and that unfortunately this was the product of a perfect storm of circumstance -- no one will ever have it that good again, and this is where we are now, so get ready to get real.

I know, I know...

 

[blue toon hibby]

For her to really level with the public, and tell everyone that the party is over -- we must reappraise our expectations around the way we live, and what we expect to give and receive. To state plainly that the boomers represented the zenith in terms of societal Ts & Cs, and that unfortunately this was the product of a perfect storm of circumstance -- no one will ever have it that good again, and this is where we are now, so get ready to get real.

I know, I know...

I think your horse fell at the first hurdle - “level with the public”.

 

[egb_hibs]

We have the Autumn Budget on the 26th November.

What are you all hoping for?

Any curve balls incoming?

Hearing pensions to rise.

Anything you think must happen?

Well EGers you know what I'd do abour free riders and our collapsing population and unaffordable housing. But such Marxist radicalism wont fly while our elite is liberal. So setting that aside..

They must cut corpration tax, but obviously won't. They must reverse NI rises but obviously won't . So we will continue to see the revenue generating part of the economy wither until we go bankrupt and have to make brutal cuts to services.

 

[Keepitgreen]

We have the Autumn Budget on the 26th November.

What are you all hoping for?

Any curve balls incoming?

Hearing pensions to rise.

Anything you think must happen?

I wouldnae mind seeing:

CGT and dividend tax rates being equalised with income tax rates
Bring in a flat rate pensions tax relief, between lower and higher
More hammering of second home/airbnb owners with double, in fact sod it, triple council tax
Pensions triple lock can gtf
Employment Allowance being restored to what it was; or even better, get it quadrupled to 20k for small businesses
Gambling tax doubled
Excise on vapes
Jaffa cakes classified as biscuits so they pay VAT

Guillotines for landlords can wait. For now.

 

[emerald green]

Well EGers you know what I'd do abour free riders and our collapsing population and unaffordable housing. But such Marxist radicalism wont fly while our elite is liberal. So setting that aside..

They must cut corpration tax, but obviously won't. They must reverse NI rises but obviously won't . So we will continue to see the revenue generating part of the economy wither until we go bankrupt and have to make brutal cuts to services.

Im not sure what an autumn budget can for our "collapsing population", and I think a good stab is being made, at long last in respect of housing. What measures does the Labour administration have to positively affect this housing crisis? - (obviously without having to tax the poor rich)

We have less corporation tax than germany, japan, new zealand, italy, south korea, canada, france, netherlands, USA, and level with china, turkey, spain and belgium. What would cutting by 1-2% mean to us all in real terms? Point Im making is, we seem to be fairly competitive with this?

Not for you specifically;
Seen couple of mentions by other bouncers to the triple lock pensions. I dont know the ins and outs, I just remember very much the pensioners dying during cold snaps, unable to pay for their basics etc back in the day.... Ive not checked recently but I also believe our pensions are honking in comparison to other western countries, so whats the big stramash about us not being able to "afford" this? What should we be giving our pensioners to live on?

 

[emerald green]

For her to really level with the public, and tell everyone that the party is over -- we must reappraise our expectations around the way we live, and what we expect to give and receive. To state plainly that the boomers represented the zenith in terms of societal Ts & Cs, and that unfortunately this was the product of a perfect storm of circumstance -- no one will ever have it that good again, and this is where we are now, so get ready to get real.

I know, I know...

I get that, but hasnt the party been over since our very successful double stink of "austerity" that the tories heaped on britain during their 14years?

What would getting real entail in this autumn budget? What "freebies" could this Labour administration remove straight away?

 

[emerald green]

I wouldnae mind seeing:

CGT and dividend tax rates being equalised with income tax rates
Bring in a flat rate pensions tax relief, between lower and higher
More hammering of second home/airbnb owners with double, in fact sod it, triple council tax
Pensions triple lock can gtf
Employment Allowance being restored to what it was; or even better, get it quadrupled to 20k for small businesses
Gambling tax doubled
Excise on vapes
Jaffa cakes classified as biscuits so they pay VAT

Guillotines for landlords can wait. For now.

Do you mean the tax on the companies?

Would you be against a gambling tax being reinstated for the punter?

 

[hibbybilly]

Seen couple of mentions by other bouncers to the triple lock pensions. I dont know the ins and outs, I just remember very much the pensioners dying during cold snaps, unable to pay for their basics etc back in the day.... Ive not checked recently but I also believe our pensions are honking in comparison to other western countries, so whats the big stramash about us not being able to "afford" this? What should we be giving our pensioners to live on?

Like someone said earlier, the extra money pensioners will get will help towards heating their hooses C.

 

[egb_hibs]

I wouldnae mind seeing:

CGT and dividend tax rates being equalised with income tax rates

Bloody hell that would make Reeves work to date look like child's play!

How can you make capital put at risk the same as risk free income ?

Freelance sector destroyed overnight. Business flight from the UK generally.

In some ways I got admire the sheer scorched earthness of it

 

[Jack]

What we will see is a crackdown on benefit fraud ... and I doubt we'll see many complaints. Nor should we. Is the benefit system currently being reviewed? I think it is.

What we won't see is
An equivalent crackdown on tax fraud.
An investigation into and overhaul the taxes companies, particularly foreign companies, avoid paying. That could go for individuals as well.
An investigation into what, and overhaul of, what the government pays to private companies for the services they are supposed to be providing. The same for grants to companies.
A review of how consulting companies are used by all public bodies with a view to decimating them.

 

[Keepitgreen]

Do you mean the tax on the companies?

Would you be against a gambling tax being reinstated for the punter?

Industry amigo. But tbh, I wouldn't be that against a punter tax either. Only cos it might help stop me!

How can you make capital put at risk the same as risk free income ?

Easily comrade, easily!

 

[egb_hibs]

Easily comrade, easily!

So your aim is to destroy the economy ?

 

[1 Mcnamara]

0

So your aim is to destroy the economy ?

is there anything left to destroy?

 

[Keepitgreen]

So your aim is to destroy the economy ?

Ach eegie. It’s no quite as apocalyptic as you’re making out (quelle surprise lol).

Plenty countries tax dividends and gains closer to income without the sky falling in. Folk invest because returns beat cash and because there are incentives like allowances and reliefs, no because the marginal rate’s a perfect match.

And I’m no talking about hammering freelancers either; you can tweak rates without touching things like the 0% band, entrepreneurs’ relief or the small business allowances. You keep the incentives for actual investment, but close the loophole where folk turn salary into a lower-taxed gain just by changing the label.

No scorched earth; just fairness across the bands.

At the end of the day, Helen the healthcare worker shouldnae be paying a higher rate of tax than Humphrey the hedge fund manager. That’s the bit I’m trying to fix.

 

[egb_hibs]

Ach eegie. It’s no quite as apocalyptic as you’re making out (quelle surprise lol).

Plenty countries tax dividends and gains closer to income without the sky falling in. Folk invest because returns beat cash and because there are incentives like allowances and reliefs, no because the marginal rate’s a perfect match.

And I’m no talking about hammering freelancers either; you can tweak rates without touching things like the 0% band, entrepreneurs’ relief or the small business allowances. You keep the incentives for actual investment, but close the loophole where folk turn salary into a lower-taxed gain just by changing the label.

No scorched earth; just fairness across the bands.

At the end of the day, Helen the healthcare worker shouldnae be paying a higher rate of tax than Humphrey the hedge fund manager. That’s the bit I’m trying to fix.

Well now you are talking about something else. Thats not what i was responding to.

There are a tiny number of hedge fund managers and they'll just go to Milan or frankfurt anyway.

We should surely be concentrating on thr vast polarisation of wealth that creates a market for these guys services?

 

[Keepitgreen]

Well now you are talking about something else. Thats not what i was responding to.

There are a tiny number of hedge fund managers and they'll just go to Milan or frankfurt anyway.

We should surely be concentrating on thr vast polarisation of wealth that creates a market for these guys services?

Nope, I’m still on the same point amigo. It actially sounds like we're agreeing on the fairness bit?

Equalising the rates is about exactly that; fairness. Folk doing shifts shouldnae be paying higher rates than folk who can repackage income as gains. Of course wealth polarisation is real, but that’s a whole separate debate from just fixing an obvious imbalance.

 

[egb_hibs]

Nope, I’m still on the same point amigo. It actially sounds like we're agreeing on the fairness bit?

You aren't though. You initially said:

CGT and dividend tax rates being equalised with income tax rates

That's what I responded to, and you then talked about a more targeted thing that wouldn't blooter whole swathes who would be as you originally put it. I get your clarification but it is not equivalent to your initial pitch.

Equalising the rates is about exactly that; fairness. Folk doing shifts shouldnae be paying higher rates than folk who can repackage income as gains. Of course wealth polarisation is real, but that’s a whole separate debate from just fixing an obvious imbalance.

Its the important debate though. Going after hedge fund guys will do little but drive them away. Even if you could keep hold of them they are so few as to make hee haw difference.

As a country we have pissed around with symbolic stuff like this for far too long - saw across Europe. It's getting late now and if we don't tackle the material things, and go after causes rather than effects, then we will go bust. When not if.

 

[egb_hibs]

Im not sure what an autumn budget can for our "collapsing population", and I think a good stab is being made, at long last in respect of housing. What measures does the Labour administration have to positively affect this housing crisis? - (obviously without having to tax the poor rich)

Ah know. I was getting it off my chest as you asked what we wanted to see but it will never happen as it would piss off too many vested interests. It would do a huge amount to fix things though, including the pressure on housing caused by importing people to compensate for British failure to reproduce. But we won't touch things like this till gets much worse than it is now.

We have less corporation tax than germany, japan, new zealand, italy, south korea, canada, france, netherlands, USA, and level with china, turkey, spain and belgium. What would cutting by 1-2% mean to us all in real terms? Point Im making is, we seem to be fairly competitive with this?

We aren't though. We are an expensive place with nothing special to offer. We need to work on our problems not compare ourselves to countries with strong industry (though other grave problems) or countries even more fucked than us, like France.

Edit - slashing the cost of energy would be an alternative and probably better. And the NI thing should be reversed, an absolutely mentalist thing - making already expensive labour more expensive without that being through wage rises.

Expensive energy, like world leading expensive, plus high tax burden plus expensive labour... I mean you don't have to be Keynes....

Not for you specifically;
Seen couple of mentions by other bouncers to the triple lock pensions. I dont know the ins and outs, I just remember very much the pensioners dying during cold snaps, unable to pay for their basics etc back in the day.... Ive not checked recently but I also believe our pensions are honking in comparison to other western countries, so whats the big stramash about us not being able to "afford" this? What should we be giving our pensioners to live on?

I don't really have an opinion on this one other than what we should do and what we can afford are not the same thing. But I agree, I'd like to know how others do it better. Especially ones that do so and aren't also going bust.

 

[Keepitgreen]

You aren't though. You initially said:

CGT and dividend tax rates being equalised with income tax rates

That's what I responded to, and you then talked about a more targeted thing that wouldn't blooter whole swathes who would be as you originally put it. I get your clarification but it is not equivalent to your initial pitch.

Its the important debate though. Going after hedge fund guys will do little but drive them away. Even if you could keep hold of them they are so few as to make hee haw difference.

As a country we have pissed around with symbolic stuff like this for far too long - saw across Europe. It's getting late now and if we don't tackle the material things, and go after causes rather than effects, then we will go bust. When not if.

I’ve not changed what I meant. Equalising the rates is the headline; the detail’s always in how you structure the bands and allowances so you hit the loopholes without hammering folk who are actually taking proper risks. That’s how every country that’s done it manages it.

And aye, the big structural stuff matters, course it does, but that’s no reason to ignore the basic fairness issue. Fixing an imbalance that lets higher earners label their wages as gains is worth doing on its own terms. Sorting the wider polarisation is a different job entirely; it’s no either/or.

 

[Smurf]

Labour MP's got the Reeves pep talk tonight and most apparently liked what they heard. That to me is more evidence that this budget has disaster written all over it. More welfare spending at a time of horrendously freezing the income tax thresholds isn't progressive and nor is it Labour.

 

[Keepitgreen]

Labour MP's got the Reeves pep talk tonight and most apparently liked what they heard. That to me is more evidence that this budget has disaster written all over it. More welfare spending at a time of horrendously freezing the income tax thresholds isn't progressive and nor is it Labour.

No sure I follow smurf, if what shes said is not Labour, why would the MPs like it?

 

[gun ainm]

2 examples Housing and energy, rip up rule book, planning powers etc and reframe,. borrow to invest in democratic ownership that will bring ~1% return to public purse. Industrial strategy for jobs in those sectors.

Oh also at a minimum halt wealth transfer to asset owning class

 

[Smurf]

No sure I follow smurf, if what shes said is not Labour, why would the MPs like it?

Are Labour not meant to be the party of workers? Obviously not hence why....

 

[egb_hibs]

I’ve not changed what I meant. Equalising the rates is the headline; the detail’s always in how you structure the bands and allowances so you hit the loopholes without hammering folk who are actually taking proper risks. That’s how every country that’s done it manages it.

And aye, the big structural stuff matters, course it does, but that’s no reason to ignore the basic fairness issue. Fixing an imbalance that lets higher earners label their wages as gains is worth doing on its own terms. Sorting the wider polarisation is a different job entirely; it’s no either/or.

I think it matters precisely because such headlines lead to measures that achieve diddly if they are as targeted as your second post suggests, and so tend to become as sweeping as your first post suggests. Moreover the people you want to target often avoid it anyway or worse, take their loot out of the economy.

'Tax the rich' cannot work with globalism (which is nothing to do with Jews!). That old tune, beloved of the very people who enthuse over the latter, doesn't play anymore. Alas it's the only tune Labour know, i suspect.

 

[egb_hibs]

2 examples Housing and energy, rip up rule book, planning powers etc and reframe,. borrow to invest in democratic ownership that will bring ~1% return to public purse. Industrial strategy for jobs in those sectors.

Oh also at a minimum halt wealth transfer to asset owning class

What is democratic ownership?

 

[gun ainm]

What is democratic ownership?

I mean where the benefits of the investment are returned to the public purse - It doesn't need to be 'trad' public ownership but it could be.

 

[egb_hibs]

I mean where the benefits of the investment are returned to the public purse - It doesn't need to be 'trad' public ownership but it could be.

OK so that's just more tax then? These euphemisms are to be avoided imo, in favour of clarity and also because they are a bit spintastic.

You'll be unsurprised to learn that I think this is another example of tackling symptoms when we fight shy of causes. Even if we concrete over all our green spaces - which we won't because we can't execute - it will be never-ending and ineffective while we operate a human ponzi scheme to prop up a failed society.

I'd prefer politicians to focus on why we have this ludicrous housing situation. I appreciate they can't as the public aren't ready for it, but until they do we carry on towards the cliff edge.

 

[Keepitgreen]

I think it matters precisely because such headlines lead to measures that achieve diddly if they are as targeted as your second post suggests, and so tend to become as sweeping as your first post suggests. Moreover the people you want to target often avoid it anyway or worse, take their loot out of the economy.

'Tax the rich' cannot work with globalism (which is nothing to do with Jews!). That old tune, beloved of the very people who enthuse over the latter, doesn't play anymore. Alas it's the only tune Labour know, i suspect.

Morning

Eegie I'm no pitching ‘tax the rich’ here comrade. I’m talking about tidying up an obvious imbalance. Equalising rates alongside proper reliefs works fine in plenty countries and doesnae turn into the Armageddon version you’re describing. You know that, right?

Folk who can sidestep tax will always try to, that’s the nature of it, but it’s still worth fixing the daft loopholes the rest of us can see a mile off. It’s a small, practical step; no the big moral crusade you’re reading into it.

 

[Keepitgreen]

I think it matters precisely because such headlines lead to measures that achieve diddly if they are as targeted as your second post suggests, and so tend to become as sweeping as your first post suggests. Moreover the people you want to target often avoid it anyway or worse, take their loot out of the economy.

'Tax the rich' cannot work with globalism (which is nothing to do with Jews!). That old tune, beloved of the very people who enthuse over the latter, doesn't play anymore. Alas it's the only tune Labour know, i suspect.

btw as much as I'm enjoying this debate, can you pop in a few budget wishes of your own? Presuming more realistic than mine? Well, except tax the childless of course

 

[aggie]

I get that, but hasnt the party been over since our very successful double stink of "austerity" that the tories heaped on britain during their 14years?

No. That was one (cack-handed) attempt to treat the symptoms of the larger structural cause, one that is common to most western European economies; i.e. that we've borrowed with gay abandon to support a model that is incompatible (i.e. unaffordable) as a result of, among numerous other things, but principally: globalism and the attendant and inevitable movement towards labour rate equilibrium, lengthening lifespans and falling birthrates, and the general malaise that expects a relatively fabulous lifestyle without sacrifice.

This could only be fixed by budgets across western europe that were the equivalent of factory resets.

 

[gun ainm]

OK so that's just more tax then? These euphemisms are to be avoided imo, in favour of clarity and also because they are a bit spintastic.

You'll be unsurprised to learn that I think this is another example of tackling symptoms when we fight shy of causes. Even if we concrete over all our green spaces - which we won't because we can't execute - it will be never-ending and ineffective while we operate a human ponzi scheme to prop up a failed society.

I'd prefer politicians to focus on why we have this ludicrous housing situation. I appreciate they can't as the public aren't ready for it, but until they do we carry on towards the cliff edge.

It's not tax, its public investment in housing that will generate an income that will be of net benefit to public finances and provide homes for people that otherwise couldn't access them (supply and cost pressures)

 

[Keepitgreen]

the general malaise that expects a relatively fabulous lifestyle without sacrifice.

That's a beauty that one. Just how does that change? Is it possible?

 

[egb_hibs]

btw as much as I'm enjoying this debate, can you pop in a few budget wishes of your own? Presuming more realistic than mine? Well, except tax the childless of course

I already did

 

[Keepitgreen]

I already did

Ah, sorry I see it now. Reduce corporation tax and reverse NI rises. Disagree on former (think EG covered it well) and agree on latter. Revolution to come another day from you then!

 

[aggie]

That's a beauty that one. Just how does that change? Is it possible?

Personally, I don't think so. A whole other generation, be that X or the milennials, would have to go "okay, we'll be the ones to take the initial hit of the retrenchment". I just don't see that ever flying in the kind of numbers that would ultimately shift the dial enough to alter the future meaningfully.

 

[Keepitgreen]

We have the Autumn Budget on the 26th November.

What are you all hoping for?

Any curve balls incoming?

Hearing pensions to rise.

Anything you think must happen?

Hey EG, what about yersel amigo, what you looking for from the chancellor?

 

[egb_hibs]

Ah, sorry I see it now. Reduce corporation tax and reverse NI rises. Disagree on former (think EG covered it well) and agree on latter. Revolution to come another day from you then!

I gave my revolutionary proposal an all.

If you disagree on the former how do you address the reasoning I gave :

With sky high energy costs, high tax burden and expensive labour, how can the revenue generating part of the economy grow or even just avoid further decline?