Nations Budget

[Smurf]

Regardless to your political opinions the facts are we spend more money as a country than we have in our pockets to spend. So if you were the Chancellor of the Exchequer what would you do?

Cut spending? If so where? Target welfare if you're more of a right wing mindset. Target defence spending if you think nobody is going to attack us and in any event war is always wrong? Or other areas to cut spending?

Tax more? If so who? And if you specifically target say rich people do you risk them buggering off and actually raising less money? Should average earners pay more? Should we be paying less tax overall and therefore we need to cut spending in order to achieve this? Or do we do a Liz Truss and increase spending and have tax cuts and borrow to fund it with the risk that the markets lose confidence in you?

Do we borrow more for day to day spending or borrow only to invest believing only investment can give us the economy to generate growth? Or do we not borrow at all now that our total debt is greater than our entire yearly GDP?

 

[Stu]

Regardless to your political opinions the facts are we spend more money as a country than we have in our pockets to spend. So if you were the Chancellor of the Exchequer what would you do?

Cut spending? If so where? Target welfare if you're more of a right wing mindset. Target defence spending if you think nobody is going to attack us and in any event war is always wrong? Or other areas to cut spending?

Tax more? If so who? And if you specifically target say rich people do you risk them buggering off and actually raising less money? Should average earners pay more? Should we be paying less tax overall and therefore we need to cut spending in order to achieve this? Or do we do a Liz Truss and increase spending and have tax cuts and borrow to fund it with the risk that the markets lose confidence in you?

Do we borrow more for day to day spending or borrow only to invest believing only investment can give us the economy to generate growth? Or do we not borrow at all now that our total debt is greater than our entire yearly GDP?

I'd do pretty much what the Labour Party did this week. I personally thought it was a good budget.

 

[egb_hibs]

I’ll say up front that some of this is political suicide given the character of the country’s establishment class, and the ideology that governs public life. But I think:

- taxation should recognise overall economic and social contribution, and disposable income versus top line, which is closely linked. Specifically services are collapsing and house prices soaring due to people choosing not to reproduce. The latter due to a) those who make the choice having vastly more disposable income with which they can bid up house prices, b) the vast levels of migration required to compensate and c) the low interests rates necessitated by government borrowing to compensate. Political suicide but it underpins everything and the whole show will eventually collapse if it is not resolved

- failing that we need to cut our cloth. According to articles I published earlier approx a third of Reeves’ vast additional borrowing is effectively lost to paying the interest on our total borrowing. Doom loop.

- if we can’t increase revenue, which raising taxes threatens, then where next with our mushrooming debt? Back round the spiral again? How long can that keep going ?

- I would tie the extraordinary burden she put on the country into true reform of services and cutting of bureaucracy. Instead she is growing HMRC to count her additional loot.

- I would be seeking to cut the taxes that effect investment, explore fracking as well as green energy in an energy policy that needs to cut the cost of production and thus spur growth, as well as pursuing green as a parallel objective, albeit one in tension with the former

- I’d be compelling people into personal pensions with far more aggressive targets, perhaps through a revised public pension scheme where you do actually fund your own pension - which of course is not the case today much though little is done to dispel the impression that we do…the pension crisis is another existential problem per failure to reproduce (and stemming from it)

- I’d go after sicknote culture however problematic it is to grasp that nettle - people who are not genuinely too ill to work are fucking over their fellow citizens

- I’d look at areas of concern @Jack raised recently with globalism exporting taxes on revenue earned here. Fiendishly difficult, mind.


If none of this is possible, and some of it may not be in a democracy (which is why in time they may fail) I’d cut taxes and hope for the best.

 

[blue toon hibby]

I’ll say up front that some of this is political suicide given the character of the country’s establishment class, and the ideology that governs public life. But I think:

- taxation should recognise overall economic and social contribution, and disposable income versus top line, which is closely linked. Specifically services are collapsing and house prices soaring due to people choosing not to reproduce. The latter due to a) those who make the choice having vastly more disposable income with which they can bid up house prices, b) the vast levels of migration required to compensate and c) the low interests rates necessitated by government borrowing to compensate. Political suicide but it underpins everything and the whole show will eventually collapse if it is not resolved

- failing that we need to cut our cloth. According to articles I published earlier approx a third of Reeves’ vast additional borrowing is effectively lost to paying the interest on our total borrowing. Doom loop.

- if we can’t increase revenue, which raising taxes threatens, then where next with our mushrooming debt? Back round the spiral again? How long can that keep going ?

- I would tie the extraordinary burden she put on the country into true reform of services and cutting of bureaucracy. Instead she is growing HMRC to count her additional loot.

- I would be seeking to cut the taxes that effect investment, explore fracking as well as green energy in an energy policy that needs to cut the cost of production and thus spur growth, as well as pursuing green as a parallel objective, albeit one in tension with the former

- I’d be compelling people into personal pensions with far more aggressive targets, perhaps through a revised public pension scheme where you do actually fund your own pension - which of course is not the case today much though little is done to dispel the impression that we do

- I’d go after sicknote culture however problematic it is to grasp that nettle - people who are not genuinely too ill to work are fucking over their fellow citizens

- I’d look at areas of concern @Jack raised recently with globalism exporting taxes on revenue earned here. Fiendishly difficult, mind.


If none of this is possible, and some of it may not be in a democracy (which is why in time they may fail) I’d cut taxes and hope for the best.

Interesting that you’d put explore fracking and green energy in the same sentence. Surely one contradicts t’other?

 

[Archie]

I think right now that we are in a stablisation phase. There a need to get basic services working again and to address the nations infrastructure. So right now we need to increase the income coming into the nations coffers. So people are going to have to pay more. While I think this is a necessary step now, I also think that there needs to be a parallel process of how we promote growth and how we structure public services to ensure they are working efficiently. For me this doesn't mean privatisation by the back door. But we do have to ensure the long term stability of things like the NHS. Until recently the NHS was ranked as the best healthcare system in the world. That tells me we were doing something right. Was it covid that messed it up or other factors?

A couple of thoughts. Right now I wouldn't mess with borrowings. A rapid withdrawal from borrowing would impact on our very fragile recovery.

Also, some here have said that structural changes should have been part of the NHS pay settlement. That sounds good on paper, but ignores the reality of what that would mean. The pay settlement should be seen as part of the stabilisation of the NHS. To tie it to structural change would have delayed that process fot possibly years. Why? Firstly we have to understand what the structural change required is. The last thing we need is a rushed botch job. Secondly, this would need detailed negotiation with the NHS unions, which would take ages and what would we be negotiating on. I know the Scottish Government settled earlier, but the same principle applies.

 

[egb_hibs]

Interesting that you’d put explore fracking and green energy in the same sentence. Surely one contradicts t’other?

That’s what I meant when I said they were in tension. They do indeed clash, but we need to not economically implode as well as address environmental concerns, so imho we need to do both until such a time - if ever - green can deliver it all.

 

[blue toon hibby]

That’s what I meant when I said they were in tension. They do indeed clash, but we need to not economically implode as well as address environmental concerns, so imho we need to do both until such a time - if ever - green can deliver it all.

Agreed. Likewise with offshore oil exploration IMHO.

 

[egb_hibs]

I think right now that we are in a stablisation phase. There a need to get basic services working again and to address the nations infrastructure. So right now we need to increase the income coming into the nations coffers. So people are going to have to pay more. While I think this is a necessary step now, I also think that there needs to be a parallel process of how we promote growth and how we structure public services to ensure they are working efficiently. For me this doesn't mean privatisation by the back door. But we do have to ensure the long term stability of things like the NHS. Until recently the NHS was ranked as the best healthcare system in the world. That tells me we were doing something right. Was it covid that messed it up or other factors?

A couple of thoughts. Right now I wouldn't mess with borrowings. A rapid withdrawal from borrowing would impact on our very fragile recovery.

Also, some here have said that structural changes should have been part of the NHS pay settlement. That sounds good on paper, but ignores the reality of what that would mean. The pay settlement should be seen as part of the stabilisation of the NHS. To tie it to structural change would have delayed that process fot possibly years. Why? Firstly we have to understand what the structural change required is. The last thing we need is a rushed botch job. Secondly, this would need detailed negotiation with the NHS unions, which would take ages and what would we be negotiating on. I know the Scottish Government settled earlier, but the same principle applies.

Good post. Just to clarify on the last as I am one such, that’s not what I meant. I agree you can’t do nothing on salaries until a multi year, perhaps multi decade, programme completes. But you can tie things into commitments to support for long term reform - into which you could also establish conditions for future pay deals - and any immediate measures, which I would hope Streeting has up his sleeve.

Not sure the NHS has been number one on healthcare outcomes any time recently btw. Afaik those rankings were determined by other factors such as diversity. We have been bottom or second bottom in outcomes for a while iirc (among comparable countries)

 

[Jack]

- I would tie the extraordinary burden she put on the country into true reform of services and cutting of bureaucracy. Instead she is growing HMRC to count her additional loot.

As I understand it she has added to the HMRC payroll to chase people not paying what they should be paying. I'm sure someone with an Excel spreadsheet has done the sums to make sure there's a good return.

As a wee note here. There's something like 5 times the number of civil servants chasing about a tenth of the estimated missing money through benefit fraud.

As for the OP I just want to see the taxes paid that are, for the want of a better word, morally due. See previous rants for reference . Add to that folk getting government money or taking money they're not really entitled to.

I doubt the country's financial situation would look as bad. Sometimes starting off, or resetting, to the simple things is the way to go.

 

[egb_hibs]

As I understand it she has added to the HMRC payroll to chase people not paying what they should be paying. I'm sure someone with an Excel spreadsheet has done the sums to make sure there's a good return.

As a wee note here. There's something like 5 times the number of civil servants chasing about a tenth of the estimated missing money through benefit fraud.

As for the OP I just want to see the taxes paid that are, for the want of a better word, morally due. See previous rants for reference . Add to that folk getting government money or taking money they're not really entitled to.

I doubt the country's financial situation would look as bad. Sometimes starting off, or resetting, to the simple things is the way to go.

A simplified tax system would help with identifying whose due what without an ever increasing army to maintain it, and in reducing a thicket within which a counter army of tax lawyers can play hide and seek. Again though, these are formidable challenges.

 

[Smurf]

I’ll say up front that some of this is political suicide given the character of the country’s establishment class, and the ideology that governs public life. But I think:

- taxation should recognise overall economic and social contribution, and disposable income versus top line, which is closely linked. Specifically services are collapsing and house prices soaring due to people choosing not to reproduce. The latter due to a) those who make the choice having vastly more disposable income with which they can bid up house prices, b) the vast levels of migration required to compensate and c) the low interests rates necessitated by government borrowing to compensate. Political suicide but it underpins everything and the whole show will eventually collapse if it is not resolved

- failing that we need to cut our cloth. According to articles I published earlier approx a third of Reeves’ vast additional borrowing is effectively lost to paying the interest on our total borrowing. Doom loop.

- if we can’t increase revenue, which raising taxes threatens, then where next with our mushrooming debt? Back round the spiral again? How long can that keep going ?

- I would tie the extraordinary burden she put on the country into true reform of services and cutting of bureaucracy. Instead she is growing HMRC to count her additional loot.

- I would be seeking to cut the taxes that effect investment, explore fracking as well as green energy in an energy policy that needs to cut the cost of production and thus spur growth, as well as pursuing green as a parallel objective, albeit one in tension with the former

- I’d be compelling people into personal pensions with far more aggressive targets, perhaps through a revised public pension scheme where you do actually fund your own pension - which of course is not the case today much though little is done to dispel the impression that we do…the pension crisis is another existential problem per failure to reproduce (and stemming from it)

- I’d go after sicknote culture however problematic it is to grasp that nettle - people who are not genuinely too ill to work are fucking over their fellow citizens

- I’d look at areas of concern @Jack raised recently with globalism exporting taxes on revenue earned here. Fiendishly difficult, mind.


If none of this is possible, and some of it may not be in a democracy (which is why in time they may fail) I’d cut taxes and hope for the best.

Forward onto Badenoch.... Overall though I'd agree with much if not all of it. The UK is in decline. I heard Farage last night say our productivity is horrendous as we've fallen into the nonsense of 35 hour weeks, 4 day working week, not working, sickness mentality, working from home etc, etc. All at a time when the UK is in decline. Others elsewhere in the world catching up with us and over taking us are much much more about working long hours. Chasing the dream. Wanting to build and create something in order to create a lifestyle for yourself and to pass onto your family. That reality is going to come and bite us hard in the rear end soon.

 

[Bangkokhibby]

Bin nuclear weapons.
Declare neutrality.
Abolish all tax evasion.
Everyone, every business, every recipient of inheritance, pays the same flat rate, dunno what that would be but it MUST be paid.
Health, police, housing, jobs, decent local services, roads, transport, utilities, all nationalised and fully funded.
Immigration restricted to who and what Britain needs.
Borrow as much as is necessary to carry all this out.
Feel free to rip this to bits but it's long been my idea of a good, caring society. I didn't post to start a debate I won't engage. Like my Hibs starting 11 picks it'll never happen.
Oh and rename the country Britain. Nothing great about it.

 

[EH17 Jimmy]

Jack mind before you mentioned me going jobbers for cash in hand?

How do you feel about the ex first minister in Scotland trousering £25,000 tax free for a nights work?

 

[egb_hibs]

Jack mind before you mentioned me going jobbers for cash in hand?

How do you feel about the ex first minister in Scotland trousering £25,000 tax free for a nights work?

Not tax free. She’ll have it paid to her company. She’ll pay 20% corporation tax on it immediately.

Then she’ll pay normal income tax on any of it she takes as a salary, and another lower tax rate on what she pays herself in dividends.

She’ll finish off better than if it was all regular income tax but miles away from tax free.

 

[EH17 Jimmy]

Ah well fair enough. Just another nice snout in the trough.

But no everyone gets a high wage. No everyone has a private pension. No everyone has savings in the bank.

Some struggle and need benefits just to survive and put food on the table.

So why tax someone then have to give them state benefits to pay their rent?

 

[EH17 Jimmy]

To be fair it WAS plus vat. Then expenses so the girl done good.

 

[EH17 Jimmy]

So maybe a bit tongue in cheek here. Maybe
MPs shouldn't get expenses.

If you do manual labour 67 is about it before the muscles and joints go.

Office workers could go on until 70.

Multi billion £ companies should pay full whack. If they want to leave the UK then carry on.

It's well withing the possibilities we could set up an Amazon type company using the John Lewis Partnership mode.

Start getting utilities back and running those in a John Lewis Partnership way.

No one can become an MP unless they have worked in a real job for 15 years or more and experienced the workplace.

That way they know how personal budgets affect folk.

 

[EH17 Jimmy]

Oh and estate agents have to work for free for 20 years before they get a wage.

 

[hibbybilly]

But no everyone gets a high wage. No everyone has a private pension. No everyone has savings in the bank.

No everyone has a motorhome.

 

[1 Mcnamara]

I reckon it’s a lot more simpler than they make out.
The more you earn, the more tax you pay. And just close all the loop holes that the mega rich use via expensive accountants to avoid paying their fair share.
And if you can work, you will work . The amount of folk I know who simply choose not to work and have the benefit system worked out to a T, is outrageous.

 

[EH17 Jimmy]

It's a bad auld situation when no working is more beneficial than working.

 

[Jack]

Jack mind before you mentioned me going jobbers for cash in hand?

How do you feel about the ex first minister in Scotland trousering £25,000 tax free for a nights work?

What egb said.

It's quite common for that sort of gig type employment where people set themselves up as companies. In this instance is she any different from the celebrities that appear on telly, on stage or personal appearances that get paid a fee? If you think about it sole traders, electricians and the like set themselves up as wee 1 person companies.

There's nothing wrong legally with what she and thousands of others do but if everyone just paid as they should do then more people would benefit than don't.

It probably goes back to the bit where I suggested "tax that is morally due".

 

[egb_hibs]

I reckon it’s a lot more simpler than they make out.
The more you earn, the more tax you pay. And just close all the loop holes that the mega rich use via expensive accountants to avoid paying their fair share.
And if you can work, you will work . The amount of folk I know who simply choose not to work and have the benefit system worked out to a T, is outrageous.

It certainly could be made much simpler and imo it should be. It’s not quite that simple though. The really wealthy will typically only make a fraction of their money - possibly a small one - through wages.

 

[EH17 Jimmy]

Well I did stand corrected but she is not a pop star mate. She was running a country.

Yes she done nowt wrong. But she shouldn't condemn others for lining their pockets then.

 

[emerald green]

Forward onto Badenoch.... Overall though I'd agree with much if not all of it. The UK is in decline. I heard Farage last night say our productivity is horrendous as we've fallen into the nonsense of 35 hour weeks, 4 day working week, not working, sickness mentality, working from home etc, etc. All at a time when the UK is in decline. Others elsewhere in the world catching up with us and over taking us are much much more about working long hours. Chasing the dream. Wanting to build and create something in order to create a lifestyle for yourself and to pass onto your family. That reality is going to come and bite us hard in the rear end soon.

Stop listening to Nigel Farage. He's a vile scumbag. You should know better mate. If that snake telt me the grass was green ootside id go and check.

 

[Jack]

What egb said.

It's quite common for that sort of gig type employment where people set themselves up as companies. In this instance is she any different from the celebrities that appear on telly, on stage or personal appearances that get paid a fee? If you think about it sole traders, electricians and the like set themselves up as wee 1 person companies.

There's nothing wrong legally with what she and thousands of others do but if everyone just paid as they should do then more people would benefit than don't.

It probably goes back to the bit where I suggested "tax that is morally due".

Just to make even clearer about the moral bit. I'm not sure the rules around personal taxation and sole operator taxation was set up to deal with people like her acting the way they are now ... and have been for decades. I think they're taking advantage of a loophole albeit a legal one.

Incidentally a long long time ago I heard about a well paid employee in a private company who informed said company he was now a company on his own and that his salary in full should be paid to his 1 person company. Fine they said. Some time later his employer was looking to make savings and cancelled the contract with his company. Becoming a company he had lost all his employment rights and a handsome pay off package.

 

[EH17 Jimmy]

This is what happened in the building trade a lot. Our union (at the time) UCATT high lighted this scam.....

Umbrella Companies – UCATT – Wolverhampton, Bilston & District Trades Union Council

wolvestuc.org.uk

 

[EH17 Jimmy]

Much like the geezer you mentioned Jack.

 

[1 Mcnamara]

It certainly could be made much simpler and imo it should be. It’s not quite that simple though. The really wealthy will typically only make a fraction of their money - possibly a small one - through wages.

So how do you make money which isn't taxable ?( Legally )

 

[Smurf]

Stop listening to Nigel Farage. He's a vile scumbag. You should know better mate. If that snake telt me the grass was green ootside id go and check.

There's listening and there's listening.... I listen to all in politics.

 

[Stu]

Forward onto Badenoch.... Overall though I'd agree with much if not all of it. The UK is in decline. I heard Farage last night say our productivity is horrendous as we've fallen into the nonsense of 35 hour weeks, 4 day working week, not working, sickness mentality, working from home etc, etc. All at a time when the UK is in decline. Others elsewhere in the world catching up with us and over taking us are much much more about working long hours. Chasing the dream. Wanting to build and create something in order to create a lifestyle for yourself and to pass onto your family. That reality is going to come and bite us hard in the rear end soon.

You agree with Farage implying that people working from home don't work as hard as people in an office?

 

[emerald green]

There's listening and there's listening.... I listen to all in politics.

Listen away mate, but simply posting aboot what nigel farage says about the ills of the uk, which that scumbag has been complicit in creating a good part of is not a good look.

How much should a working week be ? What sickness mentality?

Google;

Small business tax evasion costs the UK around £5,000,000,000 to the economy

Benefits fraud costs the UK around £8,600,000,000 (mind, this isnae just folks on job seekers allowance or its equivalence, its includes things like not reporting changes in income, savings, or household, not reporting work you are doing, landlords failing to report when tenants move out) to the economy

White collar fraud is estimated to cost the UK between £137,000,000,000 and £219,000,000,000 to the economy

What productivity is horrendous that farage is talking about?

Whats the cost to the UK re brexit? (I know we cannae mention it).

"Others elsewhere in the world catching up with us and over taking us are much much more about working long hours." Who we talking about here? Should we all be working 70hours a week? Should we be in sweat shops?

Average working week:
Greece 39.8 hours
Romania 39.5 hours
Poland 39.3 hours
Bulgaria 39 hours
UK 36.6 hours
France 36.2 hours
Germany 34 hours
Austria 33.6 hours
Netherlands 32.2

What dream are other countries citizens chasing that British citizens arnae?
Nigel Farage mate, come on!

 

[emerald green]

You agree with Farage implying that people working from home don't work as hard as people in an office?

Its the other way about Stu. Working from home you can literally click a meeting closed on teams and click another meeting open. Sans break. People put more hourse in. Farage talks utter shit. Wouldnae tire o punchin his puss. (@egb that last sentence can be construed as positive )

 

[EH17 Jimmy]

Here that afghan gadgie with the ak 47 tattoo on his face who threatened Farage is now in the UK.

 

[Purple & Green]

borrowing is deferred taxation

Has someone already said that?

 

[Smurf]

You agree with Farage implying that people working from home don't work as hard as people in an office?

Nope not agreeing with all that he said re this at all. My better half works from home since Covid and all her work team stats show higher productivity stats.

 

[Stu]

Its the other way about Stu. Working from home you can literally click a meeting closed on teams and click another meeting open. Sans break. People put more hourse in. Farage talks utter shit. Wouldnae tire o punchin his puss. (@egb that last sentence can be construed as positive )

Fully in agreement with that mate, my experience mirrored. I have been working from home for around five years now and put far more hours in, am more efficient and get more done from my own home. I also find it less stressful. I also don't cost the company hundreds of pounds a month in rent for an office in the city any more. I find it a bit of a lazy slur insinuating otherwise. Not that I give a toss about what the bastard Farage or people that agree with him think.

 

[Smurf]

Listen away mate, but simply posting aboot what nigel farage says about the ills of the uk, which that scumbag has been complicit in creating a good part of is not a good look.

I'm no fan of his or his politics. However, your attitude above is why populism is on the rise and why Reform will soon be the leading political party in the UK.

 

[Stu]

Nope not agreeing with all that he said re this at all. My better half works from home since Covid and all her work team stats show higher productivity stats.

You seemed like you were using Farage's points to make your argument K, not sure why you'd quote him otherwise. Apologies if that's not the case.

 

[EH17 Jimmy]

But working from home has a knock on effect.

Less passengers on public transport.

Wee takeaways losing custom.

Using more heating and leccy in the hoose.

Then if WFH becomes the norm then office buildings won't be needed.

No building trade work.

And anyway I couldnae paint your windaes from my hoose.