Made of Stone

[toiletrim]

I know this has been out for a bit back home. Me and the missus downloaded it the other day and i was simply blown away by it to be honest. Held back tears of joy many many times.

As someone who missed out on Spike Island , Glasgow Green ( too young ) and the reunion tours ( living in BC ), this is the closest im getting to them most likely. No chance they'll come here ever.

Its out in the flicks next week in Vancouver and im getting my arsecheeks down there, cannot wait to see it on the big screen as well!!!

Anyone else blown away by it?

This scene is tremendous, how good is Reni's harmonizing???

[video=youtube_share;bodq5EjVIU8]http://youtu.be/bodq5EjVIU8[/video]

 

[southfieldhibby]

Just finished watching it too,really enjoyed it and Reni is THE man.

 

[deano6-2]

Went to see it in the cinema the day before the Glasgow green gig in June and was blown away with it. Hopefully get the DVD for my crimbo!

 

[Chuck Rhoades]

Was at Heaton Park and Glasgow Green. Went to see Made of Stone in the cinema and bought the DVD last week. Absolutely incredible. The scenes around the free gig in Warrington are tremendous. That gig looked like one of the best ever.

Disappointed with the lack of Heaton Park material in Made of Stone though.

Shane Meadows got it spot on. Not a better man to direct this film.

 

[toiletrim]

Was at Heaton Park and Glasgow Green. Went to see Made of Stone in the cinema and bought the DVD last week. Absolutely incredible. The scenes around the free gig in Warrington are tremendous. That gig looked like one of the best ever.

Disappointed with the lack of Heaton Park material in Made of Stone though.

Shane Meadows got it spot on. Not a better man to direct this film.

Agreed Ross, Meadows nailed it. The Warrington gig scenes were f**king tremendous, watching everyone scrambling and on the phone to get thier memorabilia- very jealous !!

Would like to have seen more and heard more about the 'Dam gig and all that, but of course it wasnt supposed to be that kind of film i guess?

 

[southfieldhibby]

Agreed Ross, Meadows nailed it. The Warrington gig scenes were f**king tremendous, watching everyone scrambling and on the phone to get thier memorabilia- very jealous !!

The teacher who offered his car for a ticket to punters who he claimed didn't even enjoy music was quite sad, until after the gig when you saw the sweaty beaming pus of his.

I've never seen The Roses live, tried like hell to get GG tickets.hope they do some others gigs in the UK.

 

[Shades]

Funny how your attitude and tastes change as you grow older....

When I was 15, the Roses were everything to me. I dressed like them, I had my hair like them, I introduced so many people to them and idolised them in an almost fanatical way.

I read every word ever written and watched every tv appearance. I searched out all the bootlegs and remixes and bought everything that was released. I pined and ached for them to release something, anything for 5 years between the first and second albums. I was active, every day, on the I am without shoes website.

I bought a guitar. I knew no music but bought a Stone Roses tablature book. Without knowing an E minor from an fish supper I taught myself how to play Waterfall. From start to finish, including the solo's, perfectly. My friend, who already played guitar, was amazed that I'd been able to do that having previously never played. I went on and learned the whole album. That changed my life and I still play in bands, though not that music, 20 years later.

Later on I wrote analysis pieces for the IAWS website. Picking apart the theoretical aspects of their music.

I had an audition for the complete stone roses. Alas I didn't get the gig. At the time I was struggling with the slide and couldn't do some of the second album justice.

Then time moves on, you get older, your ears and mind become open to and consumed by other things.

So these days....

I think Ian Brown is an arrogant tit who is the luckiest singer on earth to get away with a voice that out of tune.
John Squire is so far up his own arse that he lives in darkness. Does moody adolescence translate when you are (circa) 50 years old?
Mani is still good fun.
Reni, fantastic drummer, but he's a little bit, well, square isn't he?

I didn't take a ticket for the re-union gigs. I wouldn't thank you for one.

I wouldn't open the curtains if they were playing in the back garden and never listen to them. It actually irritates me a little that some people in pubs feel like it is a good idea to put the whole album on the jukebox.....again and again. Martin Taylor, Birelli lagrene, The Rosenborg trio, Joscho Stephan on the other hand I'd fight my mother for a ticket......who? You might ask :-)

Yes, it seems that as life has progressed, the further up my own arse I have travelled as a jazz freak......maaaaaannnnnnn.

 

[hibadelic]

Watched this the other night after reading this thread. I'd meant to see it before their London gig but ended up in the boozer instead. I've seen them 4 times now, starting with the original Glasgow Green gig. Each time has been barry, I couldn't give a shit whether Ian brown can sing or not.

I thought the film was good - Meadows did an excellent job of capturing how special a band they are.

 

[southfieldhibby]

Funny how your attitude and tastes change as you grow older....

When I was 15, the Roses were everything to me. I dressed like them, I had my hair like them, I introduced so many people to them and idolised them in an almost fanatical way.

I read every word ever written and watched every tv appearance. I searched out all the bootlegs and remixes and bought everything that was released. I pined and ached for them to release something, anything for 5 years between the first and second albums. I was active, every day, on the I am without shoes website.

I bought a guitar. I knew no music but bought a Stone Roses tablature book. Without knowing an E minor from an fish supper I taught myself how to play Waterfall. From start to finish, including the solo's, perfectly. My friend, who already played guitar, was amazed that I'd been able to do that having previously never played. I went on and learned the whole album. That changed my life and I still play in bands, though not that music, 20 years later.

Later on I wrote analysis pieces for the IAWS website. Picking apart the theoretical aspects of their music.

I had an audition for the complete stone roses. Alas I didn't get the gig. At the time I was struggling with the slide and couldn't do some of the second album justice.

Then time moves on, you get older, your ears and mind become open to and consumed by other things.

So these days....

I think Ian Brown is an arrogant tit who is the luckiest singer on earth to get away with a voice that out of tune.
John Squire is so far up his own arse that he lives in darkness. Does moody adolescence translate when you are (circa) 50 years old?
Mani is still good fun.
Reni, fantastic drummer, but he's a little bit, well, square isn't he?

I didn't take a ticket for the re-union gigs. I wouldn't thank you for one.

I wouldn't open the curtains if they were playing in the back garden and never listen to them. It actually irritates me a little that some people in pubs feel like it is a good idea to put the whole album on the jukebox.....again and again. Martin Taylor, Birelli lagrene, The Rosenborg trio, Joscho Stephan on the other hand I'd fight my mother for a ticket......who? You might ask :-)

Yes, it seems that as life has progressed, the further up my own arse I have travelled as a jazz freak......maaaaaannnnnnn.

I'm sensing a whole load of anger,jealousy,resentment and pain Shades, let it out maaaaaannnnn.

 

[Shades]

I'm sensing a whole load of anger,jealousy,resentment and pain Shades, let it out maaaaaannnnn.

Really?

Jealous, anger and resentment about what?

I'm still nostalgic about what was a wonderful time to grow up. What would I resent about that?

Musically though, you - in the sense of, "I", move on. I learnt more about music and explored other genres and artists. I'm jealous of guys like Robben Ford, John Schofield (living) and others like Django, Joe Pass, Wes Montgomery (dead).

Opinions are just that and they are subjective. I get that a lot of people take it is a kind of insult if a bad word is said against The Stone Roses, at one time I was the same and I pitied those that didn't, "get" them. It is hard to put over just how much I idolised them.

But that's just it. The mystique and legend surrounding them has faded for me. Understanding the workings and theoretical nature of the music did a lot of that. This is where I'm usually derided for over-analysing things :-). Also, when I first discovered them it was almost in a vacuum where I hadn't heard a lot of there influences and couldn't compare.

There is also the re-union. It was something they vehemently talked against previously. Indeed Squire produced a piece of art wresting the very idea off. But money talks.....loudly.

Now don't get me wrong, what they did they did exceptionally well. They are a good band. They are just not for me anymore.....and haven't been for a long time.

The point of my post was probably a self-centred comment on my own journey through music from one age to the next. I just thought it interesting to think about.

 

[Doc Shrink]

Funny how your attitude and tastes change as you grow older....

When I was 15, the Roses were everything to me. I dressed like them, I had my hair like them, I introduced so many people to them and idolised them in an almost fanatical way.

I read every word ever written and watched every tv appearance. I searched out all the bootlegs and remixes and bought everything that was released. I pined and ached for them to release something, anything for 5 years between the first and second albums. I was active, every day, on the I am without shoes website.

I bought a guitar. I knew no music but bought a Stone Roses tablature book. Without knowing an E minor from an fish supper I taught myself how to play Waterfall. From start to finish, including the solo's, perfectly. My friend, who already played guitar, was amazed that I'd been able to do that having previously never played. I went on and learned the whole album. That changed my life and I still play in bands, though not that music, 20 years later.

Later on I wrote analysis pieces for the IAWS website. Picking apart the theoretical aspects of their music.

I had an audition for the complete stone roses. Alas I didn't get the gig. At the time I was struggling with the slide and couldn't do some of the second album justice.

Then time moves on, you get older, your ears and mind become open to and consumed by other things.

So these days....

I think Ian Brown is an arrogant tit who is the luckiest singer on earth to get away with a voice that out of tune.
John Squire is so far up his own arse that he lives in darkness. Does moody adolescence translate when you are (circa) 50 years old?
Mani is still good fun.
Reni, fantastic drummer, but he's a little bit, well, square isn't he?

I didn't take a ticket for the re-union gigs. I wouldn't thank you for one.

I wouldn't open the curtains if they were playing in the back garden and never listen to them. It actually irritates me a little that some people in pubs feel like it is a good idea to put the whole album on the jukebox.....again and again. Martin Taylor, Birelli lagrene, The Rosenborg trio, Joscho Stephan on the other hand I'd fight my mother for a ticket......who? You might ask :-)

Yes, it seems that as life has progressed, the further up my own arse I have travelled as a jazz freak......maaaaaannnnnnn.

Enjoyed that Shades.

 

[southfieldhibby]

Really?

Jealous, anger and resentment about what?

I'm still nostalgic about what was a wonderful time to grow up. What would I resent about that?

Musically though, you - in the sense of, "I", move on. I learnt more about music and explored other genres and artists. I'm jealous of guys like Robben Ford, John Schofield (living) and others like Django, Joe Pass, Wes Montgomery (dead).

Opinions are just that and they are subjective. I get that a lot of people take it is a kind of insult if a bad word is said against The Stone Roses, at one time I was the same and I pitied those that didn't, "get" them. It is hard to put over just how much I idolised them.

But that's just it. The mystique and legend surrounding them has faded for me. Understanding the workings and theoretical nature of the music did a lot of that. This is where I'm usually derided for over-analysing things :-). Also, when I first discovered them it was almost in a vacuum where I hadn't heard a lot of there influences and couldn't compare.

There is also the re-union. It was something they vehemently talked against previously. Indeed Squire produced a piece of art wresting the very idea off. But money talks.....loudly.

Now don't get me wrong, what they did they did exceptionally well. They are a good band. They are just not for me anymore.....and haven't been for a long time.

The point of my post was probably a self-centred comment on my own journey through music from one age to the next. I just thought it interesting to think about.

Ach I dunno, it came across as being a wee bit bitter about not making the cut for the complete stone roses.I also find that those who get a wee bit too close to edge of obsessing about stuff are the most likely to go full circle and hate the thing they once loved?

 

[Shades]

Ach I dunno, it came across as being a wee bit bitter about not making the cut for the complete stone roses.I also find that those who get a wee bit too close to edge of obsessing about stuff are the most likely to go full circle and hate the thing they once loved?

Well maybe a shrink (Doc?) might agree :-).

Just to contest the theory though, I'm sure I've mentioned in here (of course I have - never shy to blow my own trumpet!), that I spent around 6 months with Hibs when I was about the same age (15) and they let me go (Paddy Dolan you prick) and I don't hate Hibs!

Until cup finals, and derbies.....

In fact, I think you are right!

- - - Updated - - -

Enjoyed that Shades.

Here to entertain :-)

 

[Tatie]

I do get what your saying SHADES , no quite the same second time around, (reunion) but , you do come across a tad bitter my friend.

PS, agree about MANI . Top bloke imo .

 

[tricky]

I do get what your saying SHADES , no quite the same second time around, (reunion) but , you do come across a tad bitter my friend.

PS, agree about MANI . Top bloke imo .

the live shows were arguably better the second time round..imho of course

 

[Shades]

I do get what your saying SHADES , no quite the same second time around, (reunion) but , you do come across a tad bitter my friend.

PS, agree about MANI . Top bloke imo .

I'm still not really sure what it is i'm to be bitter about tbh. If it's the completes thing then I've been in some fantastic bands and worked as a DJ for around 3 years. I've played with some wonderful musicians, which absolutely contributed to the, now lack of, esteem in which I hold the Stone Roses. Bluster, attitude and a whole dose of luck plays a huge part in those bands that, "make it". In some ways I think over time I became aware of that factor and some musicians and bands I liked lost a little merit, in my eyes.

The best musician I've ever met was a guy who lived in a flat in Leith Walk (he now stays in Germany). He never made a record, toured, played huge gigs. But, as a guitarist, utterly phenomenal and I hold the likes of him in more esteem than I do for e.g. John Squire. Funnily enough I remember that he didn't particularly care for The Roses. But did for Wayne Krantz and Steely Dan however.....

And....as a contrast, I have a very very good friend who was in a band touring Europe, supporting Moby, The fall, signed to Island records, played on BBC radio, John Peel etc......but as a musician, he'd admit himself that he's not the most technically gifted - to say the least.

It's funny - I've had this same debate and conversations over the years with many folk and people scoff at me about, that's fine.

 

[Doc Shrink]

I didn't think you sounded bitter Shades.
T'was just a decent rant.

Rants are an integral part of the Bounce.


I've seen posts from you that were much much more bitter.

 

[Shades]

I didn't think you sounded bitter Shades.
T'was just a decent rant.

Rants are an integral part of the Bounce.


I've seen posts from you that were much much more bitter.

And probably as recently as last week!

 

[Johnny Kash]

I see this is coming out in US/Canada on the big screen.

Any fellow ex-pats know if/when cinema shows are happening for us down under?

Cant complain really as they toured here early in the year but it would be good to see it on the big screen :Sparkle_Cool:

 

[egb_hibs]

Funny how your attitude and tastes change as you grow older....

When I was 15, the Roses were everything to me. I dressed like them, I had my hair like them, I introduced so many people to them and idolised them in an almost fanatical way.

I read every word ever written and watched every tv appearance. I searched out all the bootlegs and remixes and bought everything that was released. I pined and ached for them to release something, anything for 5 years between the first and second albums. I was active, every day, on the I am without shoes website.

I bought a guitar. I knew no music but bought a Stone Roses tablature book. Without knowing an E minor from an fish supper I taught myself how to play Waterfall. From start to finish, including the solo's, perfectly. My friend, who already played guitar, was amazed that I'd been able to do that having previously never played. I went on and learned the whole album. That changed my life and I still play in bands, though not that music, 20 years later.

Later on I wrote analysis pieces for the IAWS website. Picking apart the theoretical aspects of their music.

I had an audition for the complete stone roses. Alas I didn't get the gig. At the time I was struggling with the slide and couldn't do some of the second album justice.

Then time moves on, you get older, your ears and mind become open to and consumed by other things.

So these days....

I think Ian Brown is an arrogant tit who is the luckiest singer on earth to get away with a voice that out of tune.
John Squire is so far up his own arse that he lives in darkness. Does moody adolescence translate when you are (circa) 50 years old?
Mani is still good fun.
Reni, fantastic drummer, but he's a little bit, well, square isn't he?

I didn't take a ticket for the re-union gigs. I wouldn't thank you for one.

I wouldn't open the curtains if they were playing in the back garden and never listen to them. It actually irritates me a little that some people in pubs feel like it is a good idea to put the whole album on the jukebox.....again and again. Martin Taylor, Birelli lagrene, The Rosenborg trio, Joscho Stephan on the other hand I'd fight my mother for a ticket......who? You might ask :-)

Yes, it seems that as life has progressed, the further up my own arse I have travelled as a jazz freak......maaaaaannnnnnn.

Good post - thats what growing up does to you - though my own journey has been without the peaks; i was less starry eyed than you then, and i'm less cynical than you now. I was always happy in the knowledge that pop stars are almost universally cocks, and that was entirely separate to the music being good. But it think it's a little sad (original meaning of the word, not calling you a sad do) that you seem to have lost the music alongside wising up on it's creators.

It will never be the same to me now as it was then, but the likes of Mersey Paradis and What the world is waiting for, still bring a lump to the throat.

No need to dispense babies with bathwater in my opinion.

ps i would be interested in reading your article you mentioned if you have a link to it.

 

[toiletrim]

I see this is coming out in US/Canada on the big screen.

Any fellow ex-pats know if/when cinema shows are happening for us down under?

Cant complain really as they toured here early in the year but it would be good to see it on the big screen :Sparkle_Cool:

A wee search on t'internet suggests it was released in Steak n Kidney in Sep bud

http://www.cinemanova.com.au/catalogue/coming_soon/32389

- - - Updated - - -

I see this is coming out in US/Canada on the big screen.

Any fellow ex-pats know if/when cinema shows are happening for us down under?

Cant complain really as they toured here early in the year but it would be good to see it on the big screen :Sparkle_Cool:

A wee search on t'internet suggests it was released in Steak n Kidney in Sep bud

http://www.cinemanova.com.au/catalogue/coming_soon/32389

 

[Johnny Kash]

A wee search on t'internet suggests it was released in Steak n Kidney in Sep bud

http://www.cinemanova.com.au/catalogue/coming_soon/32389

- - - Updated - - -




cheers, I did see that one. strange its only on in the one 'arthouse' type cinema whereas over in US/Canada its gone on mass release. must be a licensing thing.

Unfortunately Im in the comparative backwater of Adelaide, although having said that the Roses did play here for the Future Music Festival and yes, I was blown away :approve:

will get the DVD, just seems set up for big screen viewing 'tis all.

PS just noticed that cinemas' Melbourne nay Siderney. by Aussie standards thats just up the road from me

 

[The__Proclaimer]

I'm still not really sure what it is i'm to be bitter about tbh. If it's the completes thing then I've been in some fantastic bands and worked as a DJ for around 3 years. I've played with some wonderful musicians, which absolutely contributed to the, now lack of, esteem in which I hold the Stone Roses. Bluster, attitude and a whole dose of luck plays a huge part in those bands that, "make it". In some ways I think over time I became aware of that factor and some musicians and bands I liked lost a little merit, in my eyes.

The best musician I've ever met was a guy who lived in a flat in Leith Walk (he now stays in Germany). He never made a record, toured, played huge gigs. But, as a guitarist, utterly phenomenal and I hold the likes of him in more esteem than I do for e.g. John Squire. Funnily enough I remember that he didn't particularly care for The Roses. But did for Wayne Krantz and Steely Dan however.....

And....as a contrast, I have a very very good friend who was in a band touring Europe, supporting Moby, The fall, signed to Island records, played on BBC radio, John Peel etc......but as a musician, he'd admit himself that he's not the most technically gifted - to say the least.

It's funny - I've had this same debate and conversations over the years with many folk and people scoff at me about, that's fine.

I also enjoyed your earlier rant.


I don't think you're bitter but you are totally missing the point of rock n roll. I must be a bit younger than you so Oasis were my Roses. Now Noel Gallagher couldn't lace the boots of 1000's of guitarists out there but there's a reason why 1 in 20 of the population applied for Knebworth tickets while superior guitarists play to 3 men and a dug every night in Nobles Bar. Attitude is everything. There's clips of Liam singing 'tonight i'm a rock n roll star' 20 years ago in half empty pubs and the guys believes it. He acts the same as if he was playing Wembley. That's what I'm after from my rock stars. Not some boy sitting on a stool, facing away from the audience, fingers going like the clappers producing a 100 chords a minutes while singing about the news. I listened to some of the artists you mention above who you now prefer over the Roses and must say its fucking atrocious. Spanish restaurant music. Technically excellent but dear oh dear.

Its nothing to do with luck that they boys are unknowns while Ian Brown is a millionaire. You've either got it or you haven't. The Roses have it.

 

[egb_hibs]

I also enjoyed your earlier rant.


I don't think you're bitter but you are totally missing the point of rock n roll. I must be a bit younger than you so Oasis were my Roses. Now Noel Gallagher couldn't lace the boots of 1000's of guitarists out there but there's a reason why 1 in 20 of the population applied for Knebworth tickets while superior guitarists play to 3 men and a dug every night in Nobles Bar. Attitude is everything. There's clips of Liam singing 'tonight i'm a rock n roll star' 20 years ago in half empty pubs and the guys believes it. He acts the same as if he was playing Wembley. That's what I'm after from my rock stars. Not some boy sitting on a stool, facing away from the audience, fingers going like the clappers producing a 100 chords a minutes while singing about the news. I listened to some of the artists you mention above who you now prefer over the Roses and must say its $#@!ing atrocious. Spanish restaurant music. Technically excellent but dear oh dear.

Its nothing to do with luck that they boys are unknowns while Ian Brown is a millionaire. You've either got it or you haven't. The Roses have it.

There is much wisdom here, but at the risk of stating the obvious nol Gallagher is a populist songwriter - it may not be original, but it has mass appeal. Same goes for squire albeit more fleetingly. Which is not to take away from your point - which is why noel without Liam will not be as popular as oasis.

 

[aggie]

ps i would be interested in reading your article you mentioned if you have a link to it.

So would I.

Incidentally, I agree with The Proclaimer - it simply isn't all about the music, or we'd all be listening to Mahler and Miles Davis. It always seems to grind full-on "Muso"s gears the most, but they're also the sort of people who can't admit to liking something unless a) only six other people like it/have heard of it, or b) it's at least ten years old (but ideally, ten years ago only six other people liked it/had heard of it).

The Roses didn't just catch the zeitgeist, they were the zeitgeist. And if, [MENTION=12031]Shades[/MENTION] , you were, like me, there at a formative age and really got it, it seems to me churlish to spend the rest of your days "musically educating" that joy out of yourself. Standing Here still takes me to a place I love to go, even though I can only feel an echo of that original feeling in my 17 yr old self.

 

[Shades]

Good posts from everyone above and there is definitely grains of truth in there.

But I don't hate the Stone Roses.

I simply don't like or hero-worship them as much as I once did and I, in my own way, have seen through the image that is, IMO, carefully cultivated and contrived. I think they've not half blown their cover with this reunion.

Music to me now is not about being a rock star. Now that is ironic given that currently I play in a covers band doing Deep purple, Hendrix, The Who, The Doors, Cream etc......I've been accused of over-analysing music before big always by people who are listeners not players or students of music.

I'll try to explain the process a little.

When I first heard the Stone Roses it was magical. I wondered what angelic genius could be gifted with writing music that pure. It all seemed so magical.

A little while later and I studied music. Then you work out that Mersey paradise is mostly an ornamented D major and it is more or less just Here comes the sun. That Elizabeth my dear is Scarborough fair. That sugar spun sister is quite similar to a U2 song....that type of thing. Pretty much all that Squire plays is pentatonic based and chord wise the harmony is quite simple. Nothing wrong with that, BB king did the same..

That, of course, doesn't mean that it's not good, just that it's not quite the groundbreaking and exceptional thing I once thought.

I get that people see people that are into Jazz as freaks and cardigan wearing shoe-gazers. The reason why we, "musicians" (I hate that word), explore it is because it takes the fundamentals of music and stretches it. We respect those that can improvise, and that is an important aspect of it and one that you have to understand, on 2 to the bar changes at be-bop tempos. Instead of that D major let's make it a D7 and put a 2-5 in front of it.

I'm jargonising and driving up my arse.

But I hope I'm putting my point over, at least a little.

Those that write and studied literature started at something a lot simpler than Crime & punishment but as they beck educated they move on. I hope that doesn't come over as insulting it's just a comparison I can think of.

 

[egb_hibs]

I understand what you mean but it doesn't explain why here comes the sun - and even more so a byrds song whose name I forget and which is even more similar - leave me indifferent but Mersey paradise is one of my favourite songs ever
.

As for jazz - the noodly kind anyway - I'd contest it's a bit wanky - as in literally masyurbatory - for exactly the reasons you give. Musos become preoccupied with playing their own instrument and forget about giving pleasure to and communicating with others. The same goes for much modern art.
Not that three anything wrong with this but I personally feel that greatness is not found in wilful obscurity but with profoundly touching others

 

[Shades]

I understand what you mean but it doesn't explain why here comes the sun - and even more so a byrds song whose name I forget and which is even more similar - leave me indifferent but Mersey paradise is one of my favourite songs ever
.

As for jazz - the noodly kind anyway - I'd contest it's a bit wanky - as in literally masyurbatory - for exactly the reasons you give. Musos become preoccupied with playing their own instrument and forget about giving pleasure to and communicating with others. The same goes for much modern art.
Not that three anything wrong with this but I personally feel that greatness is not found in wilful obscurity but with profoundly touching others

It's real funny that Jazzers spend most of their time defending Jazz music!

Jazz is self-indulgent, it's kinda the point. It's above exploring the harmony and rhythms for experimentations sake. It never will be played in front of huge crowds. If you play for twenty years you're going to want to try and keep it interesting to yourself or else you wil stop. No-one spends hours practising every day the same blues shuffle they learned in the first week of playing. If that is forgetting about the audience then that is just how it is. They are transient anyway, the self is not.

I'd argue that most musicians regardless of what they play are not wilfully obscure, that's just what 99% of them have to endure.

I suppose it's about what group you belong to. The audience want what they want and you better deliver or they will go elsewhere. In fact they will go elsewhere sooner or later anyway. Important maybe to remember that invention only comes from experimentation and that holds true for music.

Edit: maybe Mersey paradise resonates more with you because of the time it relates to - like smells do. Or it might be that the guitar is heavily chorused and up front in the mix. It is also a good song though. Do you like Northern soul? The structures and accents of a lot of Roses songs are similar. Especially and probably wholly down to Reni's drumming. Even similar to stuff from The supremes and Edwin Starr.