Kids Flights Holidays School

[Brainwrong]

I'm taking my two older kids away to Canada next year but I'm fucking wincing at the difference in flight prices in July compared to school term time.

Add the fact that as my oldest is now considered an adult at 12 years old I'm considering, for the first time, taking them out of school during term time.

This pretty much goes against everything I believe in and, to be honest, their mum will throw an eppy if I suggest it anyway but, at 2/3 times less expensive, it's pretty reasonable to think along these lines.

Anyhoo, I've found that the 3rd week in January is apparently the cheapest time of year to fly, but, Toronto in Jan wouldnae be much of a summer holiday.

Anyone think term time holidays is evil as fuck or conversely pragmatic as fuck?

Any alternative suggestions (time of year-wise)?

 

[egb_hibs]

It's brutal. As you say prices are different not by percentages but by multiples. Being a parent - or someone on fixed holidays if that still exists - is an expensive business.

Would caution against January in Canada for a holiday with kids. It is stunningly cold. Making it work will require careful planning - ie you'll want to go from activity to activity without 'what shall we do now' meandering which swiftly gets non-fun in those temperatures.

As long as you are properly dressed, outdoor stuff is absolutely manageable but standing or traipsing aimlessly about is what you want to eliminate.

Personally I think you'd get much more out of it at another time of year though.

Is your 12 yo in p7 or first year? If p7 you could take them out towards end of last term, as they're winding down to finish up. First year much more difficult.

 

[Brainwrong]

It's brutal. As you say prices are different not by percentages but by multiples. Being a parent - or someone on fixed holidays if that still exists - is an expensive business.

Would caution against January in Canada for a holiday with kids. It is stunningly cold. Making it work will require careful planning - ie you'll want to go from activity to activity without 'what shall we do now' meandering which swiftly gets non-fun in those temperatures.

As long as you are properly dressed, outdoor stuff is absolutely manageable but standing or traipsing aimlessly about is what you want to eliminate.

Personally I think you'd get much more out of it at another time of year though.

Is your 12 yo in p7 or first year? If p7 you could take them out towards end of last term, as they're winding down to finish up. First year much more difficult.

It's (July) not far off being Business Class prices when compared to, say, same Economy flights in March!

I was joking about Jan ;) it's a summer holiday I'm after for them, but thought perhaps there may be a decent warmish month around then (summer) that isn't so horrendously expensive.

He's in 1st year. So, like you say, it's not even vaguely ideal.

 

[egb_hibs]

Think you're gubbed then sadly - in the northern hemisphere warmth tracks school hols. I've tried and failed to square those circle myself - if you come up with anything do let me know!

As to the evil of it - I tempted to fulminate against anti family (dis)incentives but that's probably unfair. Holidays are seasonal business and it's probably peak season subsidising the rest of the year rather than gouging.

As for the airlines - probably not hugely different. Outside the charter world business class subsidies economy travel as it is, I believe. But there'll still a seasonal dimension while I expect business travel dips in the summer precisely because of holidays taken by those otherwise travelling for business.

 

[broonieboy]

As a teacher I feel your pain. I have to take the holidays as they are. For me, if there was a time to do it, it's before yer bairns are in exam years. For the younger ones June is new timetables, but no much gets done. Try to get away then or if yer kids school has an activities week why not use that?


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[Forzahibs]

Pish for parents but handy for us oldies

 

[Doc Shrink]

Pish for parents but handy for us oldies

Thought you had your own Lear Jet now Forza.

:Sparkle_Cool:

 

[hibadelic]

Have you looked into flying from England? They have different summer holidays so presumably the flight costs change at different times too.

 

[Brainwrong]

Have you looked into flying from England? They have different summer holidays so presumably the flight costs change at different times too.

I've been looking at flights from London mainly, not really any different. Seems the block out the whole of July / August as being peak travel time.


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[hibs1986]

Like you, I'm in agreement with the not skipping school thing (one of my children has missed 1/2 a day to be a bridesmaid. And that's it.) However for a big, one-off, otherwise too expensive to even think about holiday, I'd certainly consider it. Obviously down to ages and stages, what's going on at school at the time, and the likelihood of them catching up (and assuming you can get their mum on-message...)

With our eldest away to university this autumn, I'm very mindful of how precious and temporary these shared experiences are.:cry
Also bear in mind you might well have a few years ahead of one or other of them not wanting to be seen dead with you*. Maybe another reason to strike while the iron is hot.


* They grow out of this. But by that time they might well not want to be going on holiday with you anymore...

 

[The__Proclaimer]

Unless it's not between Jan-Exams in S3-6 I can't see what the problem is. Especially the last couple weeks of school, everyone - including teachers - are in holiday mode, fortnight of watching films and playing monopoly. I'm sure visiting Toronto instead of a week playing 'heads down thumbs up' will be a tad more beneficial to their personal development.

 

[aggie]

Unless it's not between Jan-Exams in S3-6 I can't see what the problem is. Especially the last couple weeks of school, everyone - including teachers - are in holiday mode, fortnight of watching films and playing monopoly. I'm sure visiting Toronto instead of a week playing 'heads down thumbs up' will be a tad more beneficial to their personal development.

While as a parent I also feel your pain, try and imagine what it'd be like for teachers to teach anything coherently over time if pupils were just nipping off randomly throughout the year. It just wouldn't work, IMO.

I am finally taking my 7-yr-old to see my family in Western Australia for Xmas, though, and to do that, I am taking her out of school for the last two days of the winter term (a Monday and Tuesday) and the first two days of the term commencing in January (a Thursday and Friday), in order to maximise the time we can spend away by adding those two days plus their intervening weekends. Even still, I'm paying £1500 a ticket for both me and her!

However, I'd say there's a big difference in taking a P3 child out for the last two days of term before Xmas, and the first couple back, than taking 1st years out in the middle of term for 2/3 weeks. I reckon it's just something parents have to "suck up" until their offspring have buggered off, and we can but look on enviously at the childless among us jetting off everywhere for a fraction of the price.

Fuckers.

 

[The__Proclaimer]

Aye but not every foreign holiday is a month in Canada or Australia. What do you think is more beneficial to a 7 year old - a week away in Majorca and 5 days off primary school or prefect attendance but no foreign holiday?

 

[egb_hibs]

Aye but not every foreign holiday is a month in Canada or Australia. What do you think is more beneficial to a 7 year old - a week away in Majorca and 5 days off primary school or prefect attendance but no foreign holiday?

Being at school I'm afraid would get my vote, precisely because it's not Oz or Canada. The developmental aspects of a beach holiday are not massive, much as I love them.

 

[The__Proclaimer]

Being at school I'm afraid would get my vote, precisely because it's not Oz or Canada. The developmental aspects of a beach holiday are not massive, much as I love them.

Personally I think a kid never being on a plane in his entire life and never having the opportunity to swim in the sea is worse than missing a week of primary school. Children are always sick or climbing trees and breaking limbs - 2/3 weeks off at a time not uncommon in a typical school year.

 

[egb_hibs]

Personally I think a kid never being on a plane in his entire life and never having the opportunity to swim in the sea is worse than missing a week of primary school. Children are always sick or climbing trees and breaking limbs - 2/3 weeks off at a time not uncommon in a typical school year.

Well you've moved the goal posts on your scenario there. No kid growing up in Edinburgh needs to go abroad to get access to the sea. Nevertheless if it was a once in a lifetime / childhood opportunity to go abroad I would still agree with you, if that is now the comparison.

 

[The__Proclaimer]

Well you've moved the goal posts on your scenario there. No kid growing up in Edinburgh needs to go abroad to get access to the sea. Nevertheless if it was a once in a lifetime / childhood opportunity to go abroad I would still agree with you, if that is now the comparison.

Can't remember the last time me and the wee man went for a swim in Portobello. Didn't move any goalposts. I said perfect school attendance or a holiday. It's a fact that peak time is unaffordable for a large number of working families. It's either take kids out or no foreign holiday.

 

[egb_hibs]

Can't remember the last time me and the wee man went for a swim in Portobello.

You have the option though, everywhere from Cramond in the west to North Berwick in the East. We've tonnes on our doorstep in Edinburgh.

Didn't move any goalposts. I said perfect school attendance or a holiday. It's a fact that peak time is unaffordable for a large number of working families. It's either take kids out or no foreign holiday.

And as I say I agree with you if it's a once in a childhood opportunity. If it was the usual plan every year I'm not sure there's more developmental benefit in a beach holiday than being in school. Which is not to say I don't understand folk doing, I just don't buy that argument. It is miserable though, once kids came along it was 9 years before a foreign family hol for my lot. That said, compared to my childhood era that's nothing!

 

[The__Proclaimer]

You have the option though, everywhere from Cramond in the west to North Berwick in the East. We've tonnes on our doorstep in Edinburgh.And as I say I agree with you if it's a once in a childhood opportunity. If it was the usual plan every year I'm not sure there's more developmental benefit in a beach holiday than being in school. Which is not to say I don't understand folk doing, I just don't buy that argument. It is miserable though, once kids came along it was 9 years before a foreign family hol for my lot. That said, compared to my childhood era that's nothing!

Hold on. You take your kids swimming in the sea. Not paddling in rock pools actual swimming? Must be a couple of warriors you've bred.

 

[egb_hibs]

Hold on. You take your kids swimming in the sea. Not paddling in rock pools actual swimming? Must be a couple of warriors you've bred.

Nut. I'm no swimmer, can barely do a length of the commie. But you could if you were so inclined.

 

[The__Proclaimer]

Nut. I'm no swimmer, can barely do a length of the commie. But you could if you were so inclined.

If you had the skin of a walrus and covered yourself in Vaseline.

 

[egb_hibs]

If you had the skin of a walrus and covered yourself in Vaseline.

young people these days, I dunno. Foreign countries weren't invented until thatchers second term in office; when I was lad you had little option but to charge into the North Sea to cool down having previously stripped down to your wooly jumper and jeans to take some rays.

 

[Jack]

So what do people think of the English authorities fining parents for taking kids out of school during term time?

I understand that when the fine was introduced it was meant to be higher than the extra cost of a term time holiday over one taken outwith.

I also understand that parents have been jailed for not paying the fine!

 

[southfieldhibby]

My kids swim in the Scottish seas loads. Not Porty granted, but the west coast. Same climate, though.

I'm currently in Orlando, took my kids out of school for a week to extend the October half term. So far they've sky dived(indoor option) swam with dolphins, done feck knows how many roller coasters, been to a gospel brunch, seen the blue man group, met people from all over America, Brazil, Europe and plenty of other Scottish families.

Now I had very specific reasons for taking them out of school relating to respite dates for my sister in law, but they've learnt just as much ( of not more) than a week in school, although my swot daughter has also brought some work with her.

 

[The__Proclaimer]

Never actually been up the west coast to my shame, some of the beaches look like they belong in the Bahamas.

 

[egb_hibs]

Never actually been up the west coast to my shame, some of the beaches look like they belong in the Bahamas.

Egb Jr. done this to me the other day;

 

[MixuDave]

Egb Jr. done this to me the other day;

Thats brilliant, made me giggle so it did

 

[Hattie]

My son went to Australia about 4 years ago, he was 13, his granny took him.
Her sister lives over their.
We duly wrote a letter to the school to get permission to take him out of school, it coincided with the October holidays, he was away about 3.5 weeks but missed 9 days of school.
The school refused permission, but needless to say he went on a holiday of a lifetime, Sydney harbour, up the harbour bridge, bondi beach etc.
He went out with his granny's brother in law for a days work, power washing stuff and was duly paid $100...
Visited lots of sights and had an amazing time.
A holiday that you just could not refuse him to go on.

 

[emerald green]

Pulling kids out of primary school for a holiday is a no brainer imo... obvs slightly different when they are in high school 3rd year onwards.... but I'd definately let my 1st year eldest go on a holiday in term time.

The pace of learning in schools is chronic, and kids having a blast for a coupl of weeks has no bearing on their learning / development imho

 

[Brainwrong]

This is really weird, but, checking flights today, all the flights are suddenly a third of the price in July!

 

[aggie]

Totally agree, fantastic holiday for a kid and not to be missed. A week in Majorca or some such holiday spot on the other hand, not so much in agreement with pulling kids out for that.

This is not specifically directed at you, WH, but there seems to be an orthodoxy appearing on this thread, and it IMO raises an interesting question:

Were the schools to allow kids to be taken out of school for "holidays of a lifetime", but continue to bar "frivolous holidays in Majorca or the like", where would/should the line be drawn? Would visiting relatives in, say, Holland be travelling far enough to make it valid? Would going to a resort in, say, Dubai, be barred because while being relatively long-haul, it has less cultural value? Would helping their uncle on a building site in Birmingham for a week be character-building enough to validate it, as opposed to two weeks on Disney rides in Orlando?

Furthermore, would a relaxing of the rules so that parents who want to go on holiday further away for cheaper (let's face it, that's what this is about) can take their kids out of school for weeks at a time begin to fatally erode the importance of school attendance for children? I'm looking at it through the prism of the fact that at my daughter's school, there's kids whose parents seem to struggle to get them into school at all some days, and very frequently rock up hours late with their 6 yr olds. Could not their response now be "well, they're not really missing much, are they?"

I realise I'm having my 7 yr old miss four days of school, but IMO the last two days before Xmas, which includes their party etc and the first two back after is a whole different thing than 2/3 weeks during the body of term time - I am paying the premium for Xmas travel, otherwise I'd be taking her to see her family in Oz for three weeks in November, for instance - but there's no way I'd countenance her missing 15 school days in the middle of term.

 

[egb_hibs]

[MENTION=7996]aggie[/MENTION]

I think there's two things going on rather than a developing orthodoxy.

1. Whether to take the sprogs out for a holiday
2. The merit of developmental benefits as a rationale for doing so

I think people are making distinctions on the second point which I think is fair. One could still argue other rationales for 1, such as the family needs some r&r and this is the only time we can afford it.

 

[aggie]

[MENTION=7996]aggie[/MENTION]

I think there's two things going on rather than a developing orthodoxy.

1. Whether to take the sprogs out for a holiday
2. The merit of developmental benefits as a rationale for doing so

I think people are making distinctions on the second point which I think is fair. One could still argue other rationales for 1, such as the family needs some r&r and this is the only time we can afford it.

Fair enough re: point 1, but one might argue that r&r can be had in Burntisland - it's the economics of going abroad is the issue here, not having a holiday per se.

As far as point 2 goes, I agree, but that's rather my point - we seem to be arriving at a consensus that there's a distinction to be made in terms of relative "developmental benefits" as you term it. My question is "what are the criteria by which that is identified?"; and indeed how it could be sanctioned if indeed that's a desirable ultimate aim, as opposed to saying "fuck you, school, I'm taking 'em because I think it's good for 'em". In which case, no agonising internal or external debate needs to occur, as you'd just be acting unilaterally anyway.

I'd also add that a lot of people seem quite happy to weigh up the benefits of their developmental holidays against the school time, apparently assuming they know just exactly what the benefits, efficacy, and significance of a school week are, when I'd venture that very few of them actually do.


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[Forzahibs]

Fair enough re: point 1, but one might argue that r&r can be had in Burntisland - it's the economics of going abroad is the issue here, not having a holiday per se.

As far as point 2 goes, I agree, but that's rather my point - we seem to be arriving at a consensus that there's a distinction to be made in terms of relative "developmental benefits" as you term it. My question is "what are the criteria by which that is identified?"; and indeed how it could be sanctioned if indeed that's a desirable ultimate aim, as opposed to saying "fuck you, school, I'm taking 'em because I think it's good for 'em". In which case, no agonising internal or external debate needs to occur, as you'd just be acting unilaterally anyway.

I'd also add that a lot of people seem quite happy to weigh up the benefits of their developmental holidays against the school time, apparently assuming they know just exactly what the benefits, efficacy, and significance of a school week are, when I'd venture that very few of them actually do.


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You've never actually been there have you ? :shock:

 

[aggie]

You've never actually been there have you ? :shock:

Haha, not recently in fairness, but that's where we went on holiday when I were a lad! (Chucking pennies out the train window when crossing the bridge was always a highlight. It's been so long it seems almost quaint.)


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[The__Proclaimer]

Think you guys are putting a lot of belief in the teachers and pupils of primary school and S1. A week away is 5 days off school. If you honestly think that is going to effect Little Johnny's development and future then your kids must be going to a better school than I, my kid or any kid I've known has ever been at.

 

[aggie]

Think you guys are putting a lot of belief in the teachers and pupils of primary school and S1. A week away is 5 days off school. If you honestly think that is going to effect Little Johnny's development and future then your kids must be going to a better school than I, my kid or any kid I've known has ever been at.

So that's your rationale is it, Proc? "Schools are shit anyway, so it doesn't matter"?

I was at Parson's Green, and my lass is at Abbeyhill, and her friends include pupils at Lorne St and Liberton among others; just so I can establish where we are on your obviously well-researched index on the relative effectiveness of primary schools. Perhaps you can tell me if my faith in both the abilities of the teachers and the pupils at Christina's school are misplaced, seeing as you're the expert? However, from talking to my daughter (P3), she seems to be following a curriculum of sorts, including longer "chapter books" and moving through increasing complexity in multiplication, for instance. As the expert in pedagogy, you're reassuring me that I should have just taken the fortnight in November and she wouldn't have missed owt important?

Now I'm not cheerleading for the school system: my original point was alluding to the fact that I think we have to be careful that what's actually happening is that the parent wants to take a certain kind of holiday that they can only afford in term-time, so they'll choose to justify that by saying "they're not doing anything anyway", when in actual fact they haven't got the first clue either way whether that's the case.

And yes, I do choose to invest a degree of belief in the teachers and children at her school, even though it has its problems. The alternative is to take your view, which appears to be "assume that they're just buggering about anyway, so take your holidays as and when you please."

 

[The__Proclaimer]

So that's your rationale is it, Proc? "Schools are $#@! anyway, so it doesn't matter"?

I was at Parson's Green, and my lass is at Abbeyhill, and her friends include pupils at Lorne St and Liberton among others; just so I can establish where we are on your obviously well-researched index on the relative effectiveness of primary schools. Perhaps you can tell me if my faith in both the abilities of the teachers and the pupils at Christina's school are misplaced, seeing as you're the expert? However, from talking to my daughter (P3), she seems to be following a curriculum of sorts, including longer "chapter books" and moving through increasing complexity in multiplication, for instance. As the expert in pedagogy, you're reassuring me that I should have just taken the fortnight in November and she wouldn't have missed owt important?

Now I'm not cheerleading for the school system: my original point was alluding to the fact that I think we have to be careful that what's actually happening is that the parent wants to take a certain kind of holiday that they can only afford in term-time, so they'll choose to justify that by saying "they're not doing anything anyway", when in actual fact they haven't got the first clue either way whether that's the case.

And yes, I do choose to invest a degree of belief in the teachers and children at her school, even though it has its problems. The alternative is to take your view, which appears to be "assume that they're just buggering about anyway, so take your holidays as and when you please."

I'm not saying primary schools are shite - I'm saying missing 5 days won't have a negative effect on a child whatsoever. Especially when offset by a week of sunshine, experiencing things like flying for the first time, making friends with strangers from around the UK, giving them some independence in a new environment, swimming every day, spending solid quality time with the family etc.

Obviously I know nothing about your financial situation but if you're affording a month in oz for two then you must be reasonably comfortable - a lot of families aren't tho. To go in term-time September is the only option financially they have to get a week away, why would you deny a family that opportunity? 5 days off school is nothing. They'll probably get chicken pox at some stage and be off for 3 weeks.

 

[Hattie]

I'm not saying primary schools are $#@!e - I'm saying missing 5 days won't have a negative effect on a child whatsoever. Especially when offset by a week of sunshine, experiencing things like flying for the first time, making friends with strangers from around the UK, giving them some independence in a new environment, swimming every day, spending solid quality time with the family etc.

Obviously I know nothing about your financial situation but if you're affording a month in oz for two then you must be reasonably comfortable - a lot of families aren't tho. To go in term-time September is the only option financially they have to get a week away, why would you deny a family that opportunity? 5 days off school is nothing. They'll probably get chicken pox at some stage and be off for 3 weeks.

Big part of our normal summer hols, turkey, Greece etc is the fact the kids, son now 17 and daughter 8, is the fact they always make friends from all over, from Wolverhampton, to Blackpool and Derry, they make friends easy and Euan still keeps in touch with friends from down south that he met years ago in turkey. It's good as we always seem to get with families who have kids the same age
Daughter was crying when her friend from Derry left turkey a day before us last year... Euan jumped about with her brother and Ellis with the sister and us, we ate and drank with the parents..It's an experience they will never forget.
Also it's a good way to me other families as we tend to go for a meal and drinks with them, it gives them confidence with new people which is always a good thing

 

[aggie]

I'm not saying primary schools are $#@!e - I'm saying missing 5 days won't have a negative effect on a child whatsoever. Especially when offset by a week of sunshine, experiencing things like flying for the first time, making friends with strangers from around the UK, giving them some independence in a new environment, swimming every day, spending solid quality time with the family etc.

Obviously I know nothing about your financial situation but if you're affording a month in oz for two then you must be reasonably comfortable - a lot of families aren't tho. To go in term-time September is the only option financially they have to get a week away, why would you deny a family that opportunity? 5 days off school is nothing. They'll probably get chicken pox at some stage and be off for 3 weeks.

Too pissed to reply properly, but just in the interest of accuracy - I have saved for four years for this trip. Also, you haven't really addressed my point - what do you really know about what a child misses out on in terms of a week at school? I'd wager you have no idea in reality - you've just decided you know it's nothing.


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