is this a case of dont mention the war

[jockney green]

i find it bizarre that the comment suggested in a washington post article that some poles were accomplices is viewed as historically inaccurate, i cannae think of any occupyin campaign by any army that hasnae involved some locals as being accomplices


Poland fury at Holocaust comment by FBI's James Comey - BBC News

 

[Chester Perry]

Depends on what you mean by accomplices. The death camps were in main manned by Axis troops or Ukrainians. There were local isolated into semitic pogroms. And of course there were folk who grassed up Jews so they could pinch their stuff.

BUT.... Poland had harsher laws than any occupied country for anyone caught helping even a single Jew. Your entire family would be shot just for giving a Jew a piece of bread or a sip of water. (would you risk everything to help a stranger?) Yet given this Poles are the most represented peoples in the Righteous Among Nations. They were also the only occupied country to have a dedicated organisation to help Jews (Zegota).

There was a bit of controversy as well over this years Oscar winning film Ida. It shows some Poles in a bad light regarding Jews. Poles are very sensitive to the whole Jewish relations thing. People assume that as the camps were on their soil they somehow helped, the Commies post war were more than happy to help paint this picture and even help instigate anti Jewish pogroms (Kielce).

One Polish agent once broke into and escaped from Auschwitz, twice, to gather intel on the camp. Another was smuggled into a camp near Warszawa (disguised as a Ukrainian soldier) to see what was really happening to the Jews ( he reported his findings to the American Jews who didn't believe him).


Everyone knows about THE Holocaust, sadly no ones bothers their arse about the Polish Holocaust, where a similar number of humans were wiped of the face of the earth. The million+ who were sent to die a slow lingering death in the Gulags. The city of Warszawa, a capital city, was wiped from the face of the earth with the slaughter of 100,000s.
All of this happened as the West did sod all. Its easier to pin the blame on someone else than look at your own inactivity, this is what the west tends to do.

 

[egb_hibs]

There's too much shouting down of stuff people don't want to hear these days - despite what CP points out, the guys comment is reasonable and pretty inarguable I'd say. As a nationality, poles suffered more than any other from the twin manias of nazism and communism. But the chap in question doesn't seem to me to be making any general comments about poles, just acknowledging the nazis had henchmen as did the communists and any occupier (as jockney says).

It's not like the kind of tosh that got not actually terribly bright 'national treasure' Stephen fry into a similar stooshie;
""Let's face it, there has been a history in Poland of right-wing Catholicism, which has been deeply disturbing for those of us who know a little history, and remember which side of the border Auschwitz was on,"

In which he revealed how very little he did indeed know about history, as auschwitz was the slaughtering grounds for countless people in his category, who the nazis hated as much as fry does, and was used for it before it was turned to the extermination of the Jews. This kind of cretinism from a self styled intellectual, which does indeed attack the poles as a people, is the kind of thing that justifies a reaction but it's wholly different to the fbi guys comments.

 

[HenryLB]

There's too much shouting down of stuff people don't want to hear these days - despite what CP points out, the guys comment is reasonable and pretty inarguable I'd say. As a nationality, poles suffered more than any other from the twin manias of nazism and communism. But the chap in question doesn't seem to me to be making any general comments about poles, just acknowledging the nazis had henchmen as did the communists and any occupier (as jockney says).

It's not like the kind of tosh that got not actually terribly bright 'national treasure' Stephen fry into a similar stooshie;
""Let's face it, there has been a history in Poland of right-wing Catholicism, which has been deeply disturbing for those of us who know a little history, and remember which side of the border Auschwitz was on,"

In which he revealed how very little he did indeed know about history, as auschwitz was the slaughtering grounds for countless people in his category, who the nazis hated as much as fry does, and was used for it before it was turned to the extermination of the Jews. This kind of cretinism from a self styled intellectual, which does indeed attack the poles as a people, is the kind of thing that justifies a reaction but it's wholly different to the fbi guys comments.

Fry's comment looks dumb, and I'm no great fan of his, but his (fiction) book about the holocaust deals with issue of the camps other victims in detail.

 

[jockney green]

by accomplices i mean any collaborators whether for ideological or self-preservation reasons both of which existed in poland for both occupiers, nazis and commies (germans and russians really)

poland, by virtue of various european nations answer to the jewish question that existed well before the nazis did, was a destination point for european jews as they were shunted from their respective countries of residence, and they (not all of them) migrated and created townships in the grey area of land that touched upon the borders of poland, ukraine and russia

its no real surprise that the largest number of jews from any one nation killed in the holocaust were polish and that it was from within this nation that there were sufficient numbers of jews and gentiles who were united against the common enemy or subsequent occupying laws to deal with this

the germans and russians had been nibbling away at the country for their own gains for several decades as they both regarded large chunks of it as theirs and had been colonising at every opportunity

so with a lethal combination of religious, cultural, ethnical differences and a significant population in comparison to the others around them the jews of poland and their accomplices were never going to get a fair time of it from invaders or locals who regarded themselves as not of the same kith and kin (which i imagine is what stephen fry is on about)

 

[egb_hibs]

I think fry is airing his own prejudices more than anything else. conservatism and Catholicism were two things on the nazi hit list as they are on Frys. If we look across Europe generally, collaboration in the holocaust doesnt fit as fry would like it, for example fascist Italy yielding no Jews to the camps and francos Spain offering sanctuary to Jews. Meanwhile the much more pleasing netherlands gave up its Jews more than any other western nation. There are of course examples one could make in the opposite direction. The point is that events didn't fit any politically correct template and when the likes of fry start grinding their ideological axes they end up as careless of the facts as any other ideologue.

 

[jockney green]

i wasnt aware that no jews were deported from italy, in fact am sure there was :hmmm i must check that but it may be the case that the jewish population was small in comparison to the rest of occupied northern and eastern europe

though i never understood the acceptance of jews in such a fiercly catholic (and obviously fascist) country as spain

is the axe stephen fry grinding against the cons and catholics due to their staunch anti-homosexual stance but though quite obviously this isnt what happens in reality within these institutions

 

[egb_hibs]

i wasnt aware that no jews were deported from italy, in fact am sure there was :hmmm i must check that but it may be the case that the jewish population was small in comparison to the rest of occupied northern and eastern europe

there were - once the Italians switched sides and the nazis invadedm they deported Jews from the regions they captured. Afaik the fascists never deported any (edit - despite fascist racial laws implemented under nazi influence) and indeed fascist troops on occasion faced off against nazis to protect Jews.

though i never understood the acceptance of jews in such a fiercly catholic (and obviously fascist) country as spain

its a whole other debate but i would argue that the Franco regime was authoritarian conservative and not fascist at all. However given Spanish history it's certainly Ironic they ended up as a Jewish sanctuary

is the axe stephen fry grinding against the cons and catholics due to their staunch anti-homosexual stance but though quite obviously this isnt what happens in reality within these institutions

i dunno I'd guess that's part of it, but also general left wing prejudices I imagine.