Iraq

[1 Mcnamara]

Bush and Blair. Hang your heads in shame In fact just hang.you couple of murdering bastards.

Hundreds of our troops died and many more injured for this better way of life for these Iraqis .

How people still want to be associated with a country which went a long way to help create this mess is a mystery.

Sad and shameful. :sorry:

 

[Kurt]

Bush and Blair. Hang your heads in shame In fact just hang.you couple of murdering $#@!s.

Hundreds of our troops died and many more injured for this better way of life for these Iraqis .

How people still want to be associated with a country which went a long way to help create this mess is a mystery.

Sad and shameful. :sorry:

Problem with Iraq is that its issues have a tendency to spill across borders. Thats why other countries have to get involved. Its about protecting us more than helping them.

 

[1 Mcnamara]

Problem with Iraq is that its issues have a tendency to spill across borders. Thats why other countries have to get involved. Its about protecting us more than helping them.

I know it wasn't perfect , but it was a lot more stable before we bombed a vacuum into the place

Killing tens of thousands in the process don't forget.

 

[egb_hibs]

Whatever the moral arguments it seems likely tha Iraq - and indeed the much less morally problematic Arab spring - look likely to spell big trouble long term.

Maybe the west needs to return to Cold War cynicism and support 'our bastard' type strong men. The inability of democracy to take hold also doesn't bode well for a rapidly changing Europe.

So much for the end of history.

 

[1 Mcnamara]

Whatever the moral arguments it seems likely tha Iraq - and indeed the much less morally problematic Arab spring - look likely to spell big trouble long term.

Maybe the west needs to return to Cold War cynicism and support 'our $#@!' type strong men. The inability of democracy to take hold also doesn't bode well for a rapidly changing Europe.

So much for the end of history.

Yeah, whatever . Thats the attitude of most.

You've been right about one thing all along. The moral fibre of this country is long gone. It will hunt you down like a dog for non payment of a parking ticket, tv licence or 10 short in your tax. But lead the country into a war based on lies , lies and more Fukin lies and it's carry on chap, do as one likes .
:spew:spew

 

[Kurt]

I know it wasn't perfect , but it was a lot more stable before we bombed a vacuum into the place

Killing tens of thousands in the process don't forget.

Apart from invading Kuwait, I suppose.

 

[egb_hibs]

Yeah, whatever . Thats the attitude of most.

you're twisting my words.

That said, you may have a point on attitudes. It's next to impossible, for example, to find opponents of the war accepting that they are de facto stating the lesser evil was to let saddam continue to murder tens of thousands a year and genocidal campaigns against minorities.

Meanwhile the supporters of liberal interventionism seem as sadly unperturbed by the lies you mention, as people were unperturbed by the torrent if mendacity that was the new labour regime generally.

However, when all is said and done, the fact remains that there is bad shit coming, regardless of the position people took on the war, and on the wrongs of the war itself. And while we can be righteously angry at the statists who dragged Britain into it, the number one villains of the piece are the murder machine that is wreaking havoc in so many other places too; Islamism.

And that stuff is coming to our shores if it is not stopped somewhere else. Ironically Iran may be one of our best hopes

 

[1 Mcnamara]

Apart from invading Kuwait, I suppose.

That was dealt with a dozen years before we went in again.

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you're twisting my words.

That said, you may have a point on attitudes. It's next to impossible, for example, to find opponents of the war accepting that they are de facto stating the lesser evil was to let saddam continue to murder tens of thousands a year and genocidal campaigns against minorities.

Meanwhile the supporters of liberal interventionism seem as sadly unperturbed by the lies you mention, as people were unperturbed by the torrent if mendacity that was the new labour regime generally.

However, when all is said and done, the fact remains that there is bad $#@! coming, regardless of the position people took on the war, and on the wrongs of the war itself. And while we can be righteously angry at the statists who dragged Britain into it, the number one villains of the piece are the murder machine that is wreaking havoc in so many other places too; Islamism.

And that stuff is coming to our shores if it is not stopped somewhere else. Ironically Iran may be one of our best hopes

Did he kill tens of thousands a year?
We get told any old shite, WMDs anyone

There's quite a few bad men in the world, as fine you ken. America picks and chooses who's oil it goes after.

I do agree though, the " peaceful " religion has many violent faces to it. Another good reason for independance, to pull up the drawbridge and let them get on with it down there. We are not really allowed to say that though , or think it are we.

 

[egb_hibs]

That was dealt with a dozen years before we went in again.

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Did he kill tens of thousands a year?
We get told any old $#@!e, WMDs anyone

There's quite a few bad men in the world, as fine you ken. America picks and chooses who's oil it goes after.

I do agree though, the " peaceful " religion has many violent faces to it. Another good reason for independance, to pull up the drawbridge and let them get on with it down there. We are not really allowed to say that though , or think it are we.

As well as sporadic massacres of Kurds and marsh Arabs, 100s of 1000s of enemies of the state disappeared never to be seen again, during saddams reign. No one will ever know for sure the total.

I have no doubt you are right about Americas target selection. I am also underwhelmed by the point, which is so often waved about as if it is revelatory. The west depends on oil, so it is a priority in national security and military calculations. Not a surprise. The people who claim its to line oil men's pocketed would soon be seeking blood or shedding it if our societies collapsed through oil starvation.

But also not my point. The whole way these things are debated is generally a bit meh - but it isn't confined to one side of the argument.

 

[BurbankHibee]

It's descending into medieval levels now.

 

[egb_hibs]

It's descending into medieval levels now.

except this is not the past, it's the future. If these guys can create a new caliphate then the creaking old fashioned Europe is on a sticky wicket. To be cynical, but realistically we need to rely on the Sunni and Shia knocking lumps out of each other,.

 

[BurbankHibee]

except this is not the past, it's the future. If these guys can create a new caliphate then the creaking old fashioned Europe is on a sticky wicket. To be cynical, but realistically we need to rely on the Sunni and Shia knocking lumps out of each other,.

I agree. Rather that than they join forces and turn their attentions elsewhere.

 

[SteveIrwin]

worryingly, the sounds emanating from White House today suggest that the Americans could go back in there.

Two words.

Just why?

 

[Kurt]

That was dealt with a dozen years before we went in

It wasn't dealt with. That's why we went in again.

should have been dealt with but wasn't.

 

[egb_hibs]

worryingly, the sounds emanating from White House today suggest that the Americans could go back in there.

Two words.

Just why?

perhaps because, irrespective of the rights or wrongs of how we got here, if Isis / Isil succeed in building a new caliphate across the levant, then sometime later in the century we'll have ww3. If that came to absorb turkey then Europe would have nothing to protect itself but nuclear force.

As in the past we need to rely on bad boys to keep other bad boys at bay; Iran and Russia, notably.

 

[Cantona]

The Sunnis and Shias have been at war since the 7th century. Saddams brutality and dictatorship kept the lid on things the same way Tito did with the Serbs, Croats and Bosnians but once the strong man has gone it doesn't take long for the old hatreds to boil to the surface.
The strange thing about Iraq at the moment is that America and Shia Iran both have the same objectives. Stop the Sunni jihadists.

 

[Smurf]

It's a funny situation is it not in the sense that in Iraq we will hope Iran can successfully infiltrate whereas in Syria we appear to hope the terrorists will succeed. I'd suggest our intelligence is shite and strategy worse...

 

[egb_hibs]

It's a funny situation is it not in the sense that in Iraq we will hope Iran can successfully infiltrate whereas in Syria we appear to hope the terrorists will succeed. I'd suggest our intelligence is $#@!e and strategy worse...

There are more profound - in every sense - Incoherences than that k. On both wings of the political spectrum, there will be pleased ' I told you sos' at the failure to import democracy into non western cultures. And yet almost to a wo/man the same people would argue you can import the same cultures into western democracy without issue.

 

[GORDONSMITH7]

Civil war and black reaction in Iraq: a Frankenstein's monster of imperialism raises

As usual a quality article in Socialist Appeal which I read early doors yesterday, by Norwegian and Iranian Marxists Niklas Albin Svensson and Hamid Alizadeh. Dinae think for a moment that most or any on here will agree with the authors conclusion about a Socialist solution, widnae expect so, however absolutely worth a read to cut through the pap that I have read and seen in the UK media today, radio, news channels and so called 'quality' press, to get a sensible analysis of what has been and is going on in this utterly important region, no punches pulled or myths, which the UK and press Internationally tend to feed us.

http://www.socialist.net/civil-war-and-black-reaction-in-iraq-a-frankenstein-s-monster-of-imperialism-raises-its-head.htm

BIG G

 

[egb_hibs]

As usual a quality article in Socialist Appeal which I read early doors yesterday, by Norwegian and Iranian Marxists Niklas Albin Svensson and Hamid Alizadeh. Dinae think for a moment that most or any on here will agree with the authors conclusion about a Socialist solution, widnae expect so, however absolutely worth a read to cut through the pap that I have read and seen in the UK media today, radio, news channels and so called 'quality' press, to get a sensible analysis of what has been and is going on in this utterly important region, no punches pulled or myths, which the UK and press Internationally tend to feed us.

http://www.socialist.net/civil-war-and-black-reaction-in-iraq-a-frankenstein-s-monster-of-imperialism-raises-its-head.htm

BIG G

I am unsurprised to read that Isis are nothing but the product of imperialism. It seems to be a regular feature of socialist accounts that brown and black people are hapless pawns of other people's agendas rather than fully capable of pursuing their own.

 

[Kurt]

The Sunnis and Shias have been at war since the 7th century. Saddams brutality and dictatorship kept the lid on things the same way Tito did with the Serbs, Croats and Bosnians but once the strong man has gone it doesn't take long for the old hatreds to boil to the surface.
The strange thing about Iraq at the moment is that America and Shia Iran both have the same objectives. Stop the Sunni jihadists.

In the twenthieth century we had a massive war and subsequent stand off of people with political ideologies they brutally wanted to exert on the world. Now we have religious ideologues doing the same and we have to gaurs against it escalating to the same extent again by nipping it in the bud. The "cause" doesn't matter innthis regard, its their oppressive world dominating objectives that are the issue. Wooly twats on the left don't get this as they are too wrapped up in political theory and identity politics. ( although Michael Foot would understand)

 

[GORDONSMITH7]

I am unsurprised to read that Isis are nothing but the product of imperialism. It seems to be a regular feature of socialist accounts that brown and black people are hapless pawns of other people's agendas rather than fully capable of pursuing their own.

M reads article headline.....doesnae read any further, including the analysis or make comments on any of the rather informative analysis, wee anti Left/Socialist generalisation as per stunningly numbing and boring to all by now, and offski. Quality amigo.

I would like to hear what the Burbank lads think about the general analysis and the US/Iranian role being played out. Again I don't expect Epiphany to Socialism from you guys, nor would I ever from anyone else, however just hearing from someone who actually read it would be good.

BIG G

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In the twenthieth century we had a massive war and subsequent stand off of people with political ideologies they brutally wanted to exert on the world. Now we have religious ideologues doing the same and we have to gaurs against it escalating to the same extent again by nipping it in the bud. The "cause" doesn't matter innthis regard, its their oppressive world dominating objectives that are the issue. Wooly twats on the left don't get this as they are too wrapped up in political theory and identity politics. ( although Michael Foot would understand)

Like happened in Iraq already, Afghanistan as we speak. 'Nip it in the bud'....deary me. Wooly twats on the Left. See reply to M.

BIG G

 

[Jack]

It's about time we built that fecking huge wall I spoke about years ago.

We can either build it round friendly countries to keep them safe or round hostile countries to keep them in.

No one from the hostile countries is allowed in the friendly countries, anyone sneeking into our good bits gets chucked back over the wall.

If they want to chat about things they can Skype!

 

[PILTONSTANY]

It's about time we built that fecking huge wall I spoke about years ago.

We can either build it round friendly countries to keep them safe or round hostile countries to keep them in.

No one from the hostile countries is allowed in the friendly countries, anyone sneeking into our good bits gets chucked back over the wall.

If they want to chat about things they can Skype!

Israel have built that,bit shit for the innocent folk just trying to earn a living to feed their families.

 

[Jack]

Israel have built that,bit shit for the innocent folk just trying to earn a living to feed their families.

True, buts it's pretty shit for the families of the thousands of our innocent countyfolk murdered by their countrymen not to mention our servicemen and women who I'm sure would rather be elsewhere. Maybe without ' interference from the west they would find a level where they were happy on their own or accept everything that comes with a Western civilisation.

 

[PILTONSTANY]

True, buts it's pretty shit for the families of the thousands of our innocent countyfolk murdered by their countrymen not to mention our servicemen and women who I'm sure would rather be elsewhere. Maybe without ' interference from the west they would find a level where they were happy on their own or accept everything that comes with a Western civilisation.

Im just no sure if blocking off countries where we get our fuel from is all that great an idea.

Would we start blocking off countries when a new gov/president comes in that we dont like?

 

[egb_hibs]

Israel have built that,bit $#@! for the innocent folk just trying to earn a living to feed their families.

Not that shit for the many innocent folk it has stopped from being blown to smithereens.

 

[PILTONSTANY]

Not that shit for the many innocent folk it has stopped from being blown to smithereens.

Well aye but it's piss poor that it comes to building a big wall as a solution.

 

[egb_hibs]

M reads article headline.....doesnae read any further, including the analysis or make comments on any of the rather informative analysis, wee anti Left/Socialist generalisation as per stunningly numbing and boring to all by now, and offski. Quality amigo.


BIG G

the bit in question comes nearer the end actually. If you don't want things referred to, then why present us with this stuff G. That article couldn't be more out of touch with reality if tried. The stunning hubris - not to mention cultural imperialism - of applying concepts that were briefly relevant within the context of the western industrial revolution, is just breathtaking. I am astonished you take this seriously. The whole rhetoric of class, nation, bourgeois etc is just meaningless in the context of ummahs and caliphates, and shows a compete disregard and disinterest in non European experience and history - doubly unforgivable after the neo conservatives have demonstrated the folly of assuming western models apply, and their assumptions were a lot less sweeping, and didn't involve things already failed in the west.

Iran will be in their to protect their people in what is a 1300 year - and counting - beef. The west will embrace this for reasons of realpolitik. The west and Iran can't ignore it or, as above, ww3 will be in the post.

These are the things that matter now, whatever real or imagined circumstances got us to this pass.

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Well aye but it's piss poor that it comes to building a big wall as a solution.

Buying the world a coke doesn't always work, alas.

 

[Jack]

Im just no sure if blocking off countries where we get our fuel from is all that great an idea.

Would we start blocking off countries when a new gov/president comes in that we dont like?

I'm just not that fussy on folk who would blow me up as soon as look at me, my family, my friends, those who have similar values as I do (that's as basic as not blowing innocent folk up, maybe respecting some people are different). Building walls might come for other reasons beyond my concern.

The wonderful thing about the West*, at least one of them, is its ingenuity at resolving problems. Hybrid and other forms of cars, are just about becoming the norm anyway.

Oil based fuels will be here for some time to come but I don't think it will last for ever. Neither will the already powerful fuel/money folk who if they don't have our next fix will be close to it.

* Japanese cars where East meets West in the North East.

 

[Kurt]

M reads article headline.....doesnae read any further, including the analysis or make comments on any of the rather informative analysis, wee anti Left/Socialist generalisation as per stunningly numbing and boring to all by now, and offski. Quality amigo.

I would like to hear what the Burbank lads think about the general analysis and the US/Iranian role being played out. Again I don't expect Epiphany to Socialism from you guys, nor would I ever from anyone else, however just hearing from someone who actually read it would be good.

BIG G

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Like happened in Iraq already, Afghanistan as we speak. 'Nip it in the bud'....deary me. Wooly $#@!s on the Left. See reply to M.

BIG G

The alternative being washing your hands and waiting for the extremists to come for you. Feels a lot like appeasement in the 20th Century.

 

[1 Mcnamara]

The alternative being washing your hands and waiting for the extremists to come for you. Feels a lot like appeasement in the 20th Century.

Yeah. Let's go and bomb them. Worked a treat the last time.

Who was it that said something about the sign of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again even though it dosent work.?

 

[GORDONSMITH7]

the bit in question comes nearer the end actually. If you don't want things referred to, then why present us with this stuff G. That article couldn't be more out of touch with reality if tried. The stunning hubris - not to mention cultural imperialism - of applying concepts that were briefly relevant within the context of the western industrial revolution, is just breathtaking. I am astonished you take this seriously.The whole rhetoric of class, nation, bourgeois etc is just meaningless in the context of ummahs and caliphates, and shows a compete disregard and disinterest in non European experience and history - doubly unforgivable after the neo conservatives have demonstrated the folly of assuming western models apply, and their assumptions were a lot less sweeping, and didn't involve things already failed in the west.

Iran will be in their to protect their people in what is a 1300 year - and counting - beef. The west will embrace this for reasons of realpolitik. The west and Iran can't ignore it or, as above, ww3 will be in the post.

These are the things that matter now, whatever real or imagined circumstances got us to this pass.

.

Alas and alak, as usual, no real analysis of what is actually happening in Iraq, in the here and know, how it came about, nor the social forces in play in Syria, Iran and Iraq itself which if not addressed means nowt, or the role that Imperialism, yes Imperialism (the policy, practice, or advocacy of extending the power and dominion of a nation especially by direct territorial acquisitions or by gaining indirect control over the political or economic life of other areas; broadly : the extension or imposition of power, authority, or influence ) has played in the region over the past 150 years, never mind the past decades. Rent a Right wing quote I can read in Republic Magazine M or the Yellow Press. It is tedious.

Let's do it by numbers then, like painting by numbers. of the 56 paragraphs in the article simply point out to less mortals how many you disagree with. The last 9 would tilt the planet on it's axis if you were to agree with them however genuinely interested whether any response to opinions such as this Iranian guys is simply dismissed by haughtiness and right wing rhetoric.

If it assisted anyone on here , as it did myself, make some sense of what is going on just now in what is headline news, that is a bonus.

BIG G

 

[Kurt]

Yeah. Let's go and bomb them. Worked a treat the last time.

Who was it that said something about the sign of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again even though it dosent work.?

That isn't the only option , is it?

 

[egb_hibs]

Alas and alak, as usual, no real analysis of what is actually happening in Iraq, in the here and know, how it came about, nor the social forces in play in Syria, Iran and Iraq itself which if not addressed means nowt, or the role that Imperialism, yes Imperialism (the policy, practice, or advocacy of extending the power and dominion of a nation especially by direct territorial acquisitions or by gaining indirect control over the political or economic life of other areas; broadly : the extension or imposition of power, authority, or influence ) has played in the region over the past 150 years, never mind the past decades. Rent a Right wing quote I can read in Republic Magazine M or the Yellow Press. It is tedious.

Let's do it by numbers then, like painting by numbers. of the 56 paragraphs in the article simply point out to less mortals how many you disagree with. The last 9 would tilt the planet on it's axis if you were to agree with them however genuinely interested whether any response to opinions such as this Iranian guys is simply dismissed by haughtiness and right wing rhetoric.

If it assisted anyone on here , as it did myself, make some sense of what is going on just now in what is headline news, that is a bonus.

BIG G

What has happened is that modern Islamism has been gaining strength for the last 80 years or so, in the wake of the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire. This alongside a wider rejection of the western model, which is increasingly rejected within the west itself. This is a worldwide phenomenon, which is gathering increasing momentum. Across the worlds, local situations intersect with the story and give it regional character. In Europe and the near east, examples of this have been Cold War politics, and various russian and western wars. Meanwhile, within the Islamic world Shia and Sunni rivalries continue as they have done for 1300 years

This is obviously highly summarised, but it's a big picture, of which the events in the article are only part and which project a western middle class world view onto a movement with entirely different motives.

 

[egb_hibs]

Ps G I'm not trying to troll you. The stuff bout events on the ground seems entirely reasonable, while I think tony bliar is the only man on the planet crazed enough not to see the enabling role the Iraq war played in clearing the way for this particular faction. It's just when the ideological framework comes clanking down it renders the whole think daft; as if what Isis (or anyone else in the region bar a few beleaguered academics) really want is some hampstead socialism to flower in the region.

 

[GORDONSMITH7]

Ps G I'm not trying to troll you. The stuff bout events on the ground seems entirely reasonable, while I think tony bliar is the only man on the planet crazed enough not to see the enabling role the Iraq war played in clearing the way for this particular faction. It's just when the ideological framework comes clanking down it renders the whole think daft; as if what Isis (or anyone else in the region bar a few beleaguered academics) really want is some hampstead socialism to flower in the region.

Again a crass and my I say disrespectful slur which Socialists, Communists, Trade Unionists and Women's Groups who opposed Hussain's regime, the present sectarian gangster Government (s) and who are working in extremely difficult circumstances in Iraq today, would I suspect be bewildered by.

5 years ago.

[video=youtube;cPdFJl62K2w]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPdFJl62K2w[/video]

BIG G

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4 years ago.

[video=youtube;a1xd1q9Y3jI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1xd1q9Y3jI[/video]

 

[BurbankHibee]

As usual a quality article in Socialist Appeal which I read early doors yesterday, by Norwegian and Iranian Marxists Niklas Albin Svensson and Hamid Alizadeh. Dinae think for a moment that most or any on here will agree with the authors conclusion about a Socialist solution, widnae expect so, however absolutely worth a read to cut through the pap that I have read and seen in the UK media today, radio, news channels and so called 'quality' press, to get a sensible analysis of what has been and is going on in this utterly important region, no punches pulled or myths, which the UK and press Internationally tend to feed us.

http://www.socialist.net/civil-war-and-black-reaction-in-iraq-a-frankenstein-s-monster-of-imperialism-raises-its-head.htm

BIG G

I'm not trying to troll but FFS,

The only class that can offer a way out and offer real solutions in the Middle East is the working class. The various national bourgeoisies in the region are rotten to the core. They must be overthrown. The rottenness of capitalism and imperialism in Iraq is the cause of the present impasse. Utter barbarism is all they have to offer. Only by removing them and their rotten system once and for all can a civilised existence be secured for the benefit of the majority.

This looks as though it was lifted straight out of a Citizen Smith script that didn't make it to tv because it was so absurd. If that has been the first paragraph I doubt I would have read the second.

 

[egb_hibs]

Again a crass and my I say disrespectful slur which Socialists, Communists, Trade Unionists and Women's Groups who opposed Hussain's regime, the present sectarian gangster Government (s) and who are working in extremely difficult circumstances in Iraq today, would I suspect be bewildered by.

5 years ago.

[video=youtube;cPdFJl62K2w]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPdFJl62K2w[/video]

BIG G

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4 years ago.

[video=youtube;a1xd1q9Y3jI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1xd1q9Y3jI[/video]

Surely you are fecking kidding me. I have in countless threads over the last decade protested the spineless, rootless manner in which the politically correct refuse to acknowledge any bonds with those who share 'our' values, with my list of examples including - Christians, secularists, trade unionists, gays and women and those who believe in their equality. Ffs I have kept this up in the teeth of boggle eyed jibber from 'citizens of the world' refusing to prefer the plight of these people when the going gets tough, and conspiracy theory fantasies being used to avoid real world difficulties.

I don't know how you contrived to take offence from the passage you did - the real insult to the parties in question comes from reactionary wallop such as contained in that article and which could have come out of the mouth of the late, great Rik Mayall whilst in young ones character.

It shows a contempt for understanding the region, it's people's, history and troubles; it shows crass insensitivity not only to the struggles of those resisting Islamism in-region - otherwise despicably betrayed by the western right-on choir - it is also sickeningly cavalier given the fate of leftists who actually tried to use Islamic revolution to bring about what this bubble espouses. Perhaps you would profit from reading a bit about the events of the Iranian revolution, and somewhere other than in this comic,

Sorry to be blunt, but to accuse me as you did , for no reason I can see, while taking your view of things from this clownish head-in-the-sand roaster is too much. It remains the case that in the region Marxism remains the goal of only a few, beleagured - it means 'under siege' in case a misunderstanding prompted your outburst - academics. As I say, read up on what happened to those who thought they could ride the Islamist tiger in Iran - which was a lot more secular, whilst the USSR was still a super power, while Marxism was still believed in by westerners older than 20 and younger than 50, and where the Islamists including the future ayatollah actually had a genuine enthusiasm for Marx. But then that plays to differences in the Shia vs Sunni context, which seem of no interest to the patrician racist bollocks that sees only ciphers drawn from European history, and which refuses to acknowledge non Europeans as having their own agenda, formed from their own history.

FFS it is 2014 - Islamism is a form of modernity, which is threatening to make western liberalism into a relic, never mind the dusty ideas that the latter long consigned to the history books.

 

[GORDONSMITH7]

I'm not trying to troll but FFS,



This looks as though it was lifted straight out of a Citizen Smith script that didn't make it to tv because it was so absurd. If that has been the first paragraph I doubt I would have read the second.

As I expected unfortunately my amigo. Now any comments on what the article is saying about events as they unfold. There again Fox News are probably on the ball as usual.

BIG G