Iran

Forums New posts
Keepitgreen said:
I'll explain chief. When I clicked in here and read the last few posts, Trump was the subject. I posted in that vein, then you followed up, so it appeared to me like you were referring to me. If you weren't, fair enough.

I am genuinely interested in your take on US intervention though. Worth it here do you think?
Click to expand...
Well that depends. In principle is it valid to intervene to stop a despotic state mass slaughtering it's population to prevent them from overthrowing that regime? To me it's certainly no less so than intervening on other humanitarian grounds such as invasion by one country of another.

The stuff getting spouted by your Corbyn's of the world is a rhetorical technique of those who support despots. It's incredibly hard for despotic regimes to be overthrown -, they typically only fall once they have lost the will to kill everyone.

In principle though.

We know in practice the consequences of trying to 'fix' the middle East, and while I have more hope for non Arab Iran it is still freighted with the possibility of disaster. Then again, again, it's not just about Iran - these cnuts have destroyed Syria, Lebanon, any hope of coexistence between Israel and Palestine, Yemen, and more. Their overthrow would be the single biggest potential contributor to regional peace there is, which in turn would massively influence the balance of power with the russkis etc

So fuck knows really. I'm glad it's not my decision and right now can't think of a smarter position than hoping for the best, and also hoping the Iranians can achieve that without outside intervention.
 
Last edited:
gun ainm said:
c'mon Smurf you're better than JHB and others like her who'd rather fight the culture wars than focus on the issue.
Click to expand...
A strange target to pick in the context of this cluster of a thread. And so is JHB for that matter, in terms of the wider context.

This uprising has certainly caused a few masks to slip in the wider world as well, and to underscore what we all knew about various 'humanitarians' and sectarian political movements.
 
Smurf said:
The hypocrisy that's been exposed is off the page.
Click to expand...
really - on one level you might be right but a) Greta is just a wee lassie (and i dont mean that in an insulting way) with a strong sense of obligation to activism and it really shouldn't trigger you and b) her activism is very unlikely to have an impact on the Iranian regime (you could argue similar i suppose re the Israeli regime but i'd argue she's trying to influence western audiences - are there any/many in the west supporting the supreme leader of the IRI?).

an effective activist would presumably concentrate on issues they may be able to affect. in terms of whether her personal morality is hypocritical I dont know - has she been quoted with a view on the Iranian protests/revolution?
 
egb_hibs said:
A strange target to pick in the context of this cluster of a thread. And so is JHB for that matter, in terms of the wider context.

This uprising has certainly caused a few masks to slip in the wider world as well, and to underscore what we all knew about various 'humanitarians' and sectarian political movements.
Click to expand...
i'll admit my replies are rather random as i'm dipping in and out of threads this eve - i've expanded in my reply to Smurf dunno if that helps
 
to shake things up a bit

1) is it true/false that the legacy of the American/western support of the 1953 coup makes it more difficult for a) democratic movements to thrive and b) that western support for former to be viewed as toxic?
2) sanctions may have precipitated this by inflicting 'intolerable' economic hardship on the Iranian people?- is that a good or bad thing?
3) does the dialectical materialism explain these protests better than other analyses which tend t focus on western values?
 
Greta is not a wee lassie she's a fully grown woman. She would be insignificant were she not also Joan of Arc for whole swathes of lobotomised people.

She's a power player and perhaps we should acknowledge that rather than patronising her due to her gender. She deserves to be taken as seriously and thus criticised as seriously as your Tommy Robinsons, Zack Polanksis, Nick Fuentes' or Owen Jones'. She is a real influence on society and a fully grown adult.

She didn't Palestine because she could be most effective there, and you know it R.
 
egb_hibs said:
History is unfolding before our eyes as brave freedom fighters walk into the guns of an islamist regime behind much of the world's ills for 45 years and some aren't interested in anything bar Donald fucking Trump. Oh and the eternal obsession an all.

Odd jobs.
Click to expand...
You are one of the loudest voices often questioning why the world ignores all the bad governments and brutal regimes throughout the world, but concentrate on the Israelis actions.
Why then do you think the orange one is suddenly so interested in this uprising. As you have stated many times, why isn’t he sorting out the ones in Africa, for example?
 
1 Mcnamara said:
You are one of the loudest voices often questioning why the world ignores all the bad governments and brutal regimes throughout the world, but concentrate on the Israelis actions.
Click to expand...
Not sure if serious. Im rather more given to pointing out the obsessive 'concentration' on Israel.

The regime now murdering its citizens in Iran is also the principle party responsible for that mess BTW.
1 Mcnamara said:
Why then do you think the orange one is suddenly so interested in this uprising. As you have stated many times, why isn’t he sorting out the ones in Africa, for example?
Click to expand...
Because of its massive geopolitical significance and because it's clear cut in every way - a despotic enemy of the West and destabiliser of an entire region now turned on its own people (which is very different to saying that the outcomes of intervention are clear cut). Trump is also musing out loud about intervening in Africa mind.

Can I just note at this point, that strange as it may seem, my thoughts on Iran don't begin, end or get led by what Trump or Zionists think about it all.

My hope is the people of Iran can throw off their oppressors who are also authors of slaughter and mayhem across the entire region.
 
egb_hibs said:
Greta is not a wee lassie she's a fully grown woman. She would be insignificant were she not also Joan of Arc for whole swathes of lobotomised people.

She's a power player and perhaps we should acknowledge that rather than patronising her due to her gender. She deserves to be taken as seriously and thus criticised as seriously as your Tommy Robinsons, Zack Polanksis, Nick Fuentes' or Owen Jones'. She is a real influence on society and a fully grown adult.

She didn't Palestine because she could be most effective there, and you know it R.
Click to expand...
if you want to discuss Greta ad nauseum in this thread crack on - I'll say this though - proclaiming with certainty on her motives is I think foolish - I assume you dont know her so it's speculative at best - framed as assertion it's dishonest. The 'appeal to motive' is of course a well kent logical fallacy, that (purposefully) avoids engaging in the merits or weaknesses of a view/action - its very negative as well where the mere possibility of a bad motive is enough to invalidate an entire position or person (its a classic cancel culture tactic) - I'm assuming you're not telepathic but if you are i take that back and apologise?
 
egb_hibs said:
Can I just note at this point, that strange as it may seem, my thoughts on Iran don't begin, end or get led by what Trump or Zionists think about it all.

My hope is the people of Iran can throw off their oppressors who are also authors of slaughter and mayhem across the entire region.
Click to expand...
(y)
 
gun ainm said:
if you want to discuss Greta ad nauseum in this thread crack on - I'll say this though - proclaiming with certainty on her motives is I think foolish - I assume you dont know her so it's speculative at best - framed as assertion it's dishonest. The 'appeal to motive' is of course a well kent logical fallacy, that (purposefully) avoids engaging in the merits or weaknesses of a view/action - its very negative as well where the mere possibility of a bad motive is enough to invalidate an entire position or person (its a classic cancel culture tactic) - I'm assuming you're not telepathic but if you are i take that back and apologise?
Click to expand...
I don't give a feck about Greta and only mentioned her in response to your dig at Smurf. This thread is a binfire of people wanting to talk about everything bar the plight of the Iranian people. This reflects the wider world where response has been muted from the usually ostentatious 'humanitarians' to the msm.

I can't help suspecting this reflects an ambivalence arising from the fact that freedom for the Iranians benefits Israel and the rest of the region, America and the West generally. And I think this comes ahead of whatever happens to brown people in the middle East and always did. Greta exemplifies those tendencies. We shouldnt be wasting breath on her but I do find it odd you should focus on the people pointing out this tendency, like Smurf, while what he is pointing out is all over this thread.

Ps - it was you that suggested Greta's motive, with some specificity. I suggested that we both know there are rather more obvious explanations for why she happened to land on the same preoccupation as every other bouregois rentacauser and establishment poppet. I don't have telepathy and if this genuinely hadn't occurred to you I apologise, but I'm also surprised...unless you have it yourself
;))
 
gun ainm said:
to shake things up a bit

1) is it true/false that the legacy of the American/western support of the 1953 coup makes it more difficult for a) democratic movements to thrive and b) that western support for former to be viewed as toxic?
2) sanctions may have precipitated this by inflicting 'intolerable' economic hardship on the Iranian people?- is that a good or bad thing?
3) does the dialectical materialism explain these protests better than other analyses which tend t focus on western values?
Click to expand...
1) I dont really know enough on this, I can imagine it'll still cast a shadow? And you've got to think the younger generations will be less influenced by it and will react to their current conditions more? But not sure tbh.
2) Sanctions wherever are shit imo, they just can't be good in any sense. In so many ways, they hurt the common person far more than the purported targets, but also allow those targets to maintain narratives that designate dissent as foreign-backed etc. Have they ever worked? Maybe somewhere but aye, not for me.
3) Yes I think it does explain a lot of it. It has to. Falling living standards, corruption, blocked futures, sanctions, inequality between elites and everyone else etc. Not all of it though; I dont think if fully explains why these protests take the shape they do. Issues of dignity, gender, humiliation, identity and autonomy clearly matter, and people don’t risk their lives purely over GDP graphs etc. I know I'm simplifying it a bit there but you know what I mean.

So aye, material conditions matter massively, but values identity and memory aren’t just Western overlays either; I think they’re part of how people understand injustice and decide when enough’s enough.
 
egb_hibs said:
I don't give a feck about Greta and only mentioned her in response to your dig at Smurf. This thread is a binfire of people wanting to talk about everything bar the plight of the Iranian people. This reflects the wider world where response has been muted from the usually ostentatious 'humanitarians' to the msm.
Click to expand...

hurrah - oh wait there's more....?
egb_hibs said:
I can't help suspecting this reflects an ambivalence arising from the fact that freedom for the Iranians benefits Israel and the rest of the region, America and the West generally. And I think this comes ahead of whatever happens to brown people in the middle East and always did. Greta exemplifies those tendencies. We shouldnt be wasting breath on her but I do find it odd you should focus on the people pointing out this tendency, like Smurf, while what he is pointing out is all over this thread.
Click to expand...
[engaging restraint-o-meter] I'll pass [grits teeth]
egb_hibs said:
Ps - it was you that suggested Greta's motive, with some specificity. I suggested that we both know there are rather more obvious explanations for why she happened to land on the same preoccupation as every other bouregois rentacauser and establishment poppet.
Click to expand...
please open this up in the Israel thread again - its not like we havent been over this ad nauseum already. my position is 1) appeals to motive are disingenuous and an avoidance tactic 2) anti-semitism is a cancer but its use as a way to shut down debate and criticism is also toxic - we have never got past this on the board
egb_hibs said:
I don't have telepathy and if this genuinely hadn't occurred to you I apologise, but I'm also surprised...unless you have it yourself
;))
Click to expand...
psychic GIF
 
Keepitgreen said:
1) I dont really know enough on this, I can imagine it'll still cast a shadow? And you've got to think the younger generations will be less influenced by it and will react to their current conditions more? But not sure tbh.
2) Sanctions wherever are shit imo, they just can't be good in any sense. In so many ways, they hurt the common person far more than the purported targets, but also allow those targets to maintain narratives that designate dissent as foreign-backed etc. Have they ever worked? Maybe somewhere but aye, not for me.
3) Yes I think it does explain a lot of it. It has to. Falling living standards, corruption, blocked futures, sanctions, inequality between elites and everyone else etc. Not all of it though; I dont think if fully explains why these protests take the shape they do. Issues of dignity, gender, humiliation, identity and autonomy clearly matter, and people don’t risk their lives purely over GDP graphs etc. I know I'm simplifying it a bit there but you know what I mean.

So aye, material conditions matter massively, but values identity and memory aren’t just Western overlays either; I think they’re part of how people understand injustice and decide when enough’s enough.
Click to expand...
thats a disappointingly sensible answer :52: never-mind the bounce far right will be a long in a mo :coffee1:
 
gun ainm said:
to shake things up a bit

1) is it true/false that the legacy of the American/western support of the 1953 coup makes it more difficult for a) democratic movements to thrive and b) that western support for former to be viewed as toxic?.
Click to expand...
No idea but it's a long time ago and I think if you get stuck on this you end up with everything being fine until Cain turned on Abel. I also think that we need to grant brown people more agency and not assume them captive to honky actions from the distant past.

Democracy has receded across the Islamic world as the West declines and indigenous culture reasserts itself. The unfortunate specific circumstances in Iran 70 odd years ago are not the decisive thing is my suspicion. I think it's more about whether they turn to their Persian inheritance as the response to Islamic rule or back to a western template: if the West still offers one.
gun ainm said:
2) sanctions may have precipitated this by inflicting 'intolerable' economic hardship on the Iranian people?- is that a good or bad thing?
Click to expand...
Well it's not good in the sense that people suffering isn't good. But it may be good in the sense of having been an effective way to topple a horrific regime without the horrors of war, should that come to pass.
gun ainm said:
3) does the dialectical materialism explain these protests better than other analyses which tend t focus on western values?
Click to expand...
Dialectical materialism is literally the most western possible lens on all this. That said I suppose a question back to you might be: did it get them into this to begin with given leftists were kingmakers for the mullahs?

Looks to me like people are sick of an oppressive and dysfunctional regime that causes most of the regions grief while making life hellish for Iranians. I think secular Iranian nationalism is having some success in laying this at the feet of an alien islamism imposed upon Persian civilisation.

I suspect also a lot of it is as simple as x is shit so I'm opting for y. That is I think one of the more enduring theoretical frameworks for contemplating human history.
 
gun ainm said:
hurrah - oh wait there's more....?

[engaging restraint-o-meter] I'll pass [grits teeth]

please open this up in the Israel thread again - its not like we havent been over this ad nauseum already. my position is 1) appeals to motive are disingenuous and an avoidance tactic 2) anti-semitism is a cancer but its use as a way to shut down debate and criticism is also toxic - we have never got past this on the board
Click to expand...
Dude, once more, it was you who posited her motive. I think it more likely she's just following the herd and switching to an adjacent facet of the omnicause which appeals to her existing base and grows her franchise. Tbh I don't think she's much of a thinker and seems to have a somewhat rudimentary grasp of the whole situation even by activist standards. I suspect it could be easy to overestimate the contemplation that's gone into it.

Let's stick with Iran, as you have refreshingly otherwise done. I think this was @Smurf's point to begin with : a lot of folk are so fixated on fashionable obsessions that they don't give a fuck about Iran, as well as rather suggesting they don't give a fuck about the ostensible subjects of those obsessions themselves.
 
egb_hibs said:
Not sure if serious. Im rather more given to pointing out the obsessive 'concentration' on Israel.

The regime now murdering its citizens in Iran is also the principle party responsible for that mess BTW.

Because of its massive geopolitical significance and because it's clear cut in every way - a despotic enemy of the West and destabiliser of an entire region now turned on its own people (which is very different to saying that the outcomes of intervention are clear cut). Trump is also musing out loud about intervening in Africa mind.

Can I just note at this point, that strange as it may seem, my thoughts on Iran don't begin, end or get led by what Trump or Zionists think about it all.

My hope is the people of Iran can throw off their oppressors who are also authors of slaughter and mayhem across the entire region.
Click to expand...
Your narrative is dynamic. And like a skilled politician you can make it sound like what you want . ( I think that was a compliment 🙄)
Let’s not kid me, or yourself, that you think tangoman is doing ( or threatening) this because he cares about the Iranian youth. He cares not a jot about them. And if you do, I think you would accept that American intervention is the last thing they need.
Iraq ! Short memories eh🤔
 
Things really seem to be escalating. Currently in Basra which is pretty close to the Iranian border as the crow flies albeit much longer on road as the Shatt Al Arab river separates the 2 countries. Have heard Iranians have been congregating near the river to pick up Iraqi mobile coverage. Flying home today after my 4 week rotation in Iraq - hopefully uneventful!
 
Hibee Kev said:
Things really seem to be escalating. Currently in Basra which is pretty close to the Iranian border as the crow flies albeit much longer on road as the Shatt Al Arab river separates the 2 countries. Have heard Iranians have been congregating near the river to pick up Iraqi mobile coverage. Flying home today after my 4 week rotation in Iraq - hopefully uneventful!
Click to expand...

Safe travels
 
1 Mcnamara said:
Your narrative is dynamic. And like a skilled politician you can make it sound like what you want . ( I think that was a compliment 🙄)
Let’s not kid me, or yourself, that you think tangoman is doing ( or threatening) this because he cares about the Iranian youth. He cares not a jot about them. And if you do, I think you would accept that American intervention is the last thing they need.
Iraq ! Short memories eh🤔
Click to expand...
Firstly, I have to say this all seems a bit pathological. No matter how much you would prefer it were so, this is not about Donald Trump.

But you asked me a question and I answered it. I have explicitly referred to the history of American intervention in other posts, but you asked me why I thought he was taking and interest in Iran rather than Africa (which he actually is taking an interest in) and I answered.

You also seem to have somewhat skated over the 'massive geopolitical significance' which was the first reason I gave, because it is the most important.
 
Smurf said:
Indeed. Which makes me wonder that that's exactly why the Corbyn’s, Yousaf's & Sultana’s of this mad world are quite comfortable with the status quo in Iran?
Click to expand...
I think they very possibly are. There are of course a million other challenges to then navigate, but with mullahs out of the picture the biggest obstacle to peaceful coexistence in the region is gone. And we can't have that.

The flag bearer in the great struggle against Jewry would be gone, mother Russia weakened, and the heroes of Hamas and Hezbollah would lose their bankers and arms suppliers. It would be like losing the USSR was for western communists - and for Jezza.
 
egb_hibs said:
Firstly, I have to say this all seems a bit pathological. No matter how much you would prefer it were so, this is not about Donald Trump.

But you asked me a question and I answered it. I have explicitly referred to the history of American intervention in other posts, but you asked me why I thought he was taking and interest in Iran rather than Africa (which he actually is taking an interest in) and I answered.

You also seem to have somewhat skated over the 'massive geopolitical significance' which was the first reason I gave, because it is the most important.
Click to expand...
How is talking about Trump threatening to attack Iran nothing to do with Trump
Your double standards are of the scale..You've been caught out just put your hands up instead of writing wind and pish
 
1 Mcnamara said:
How is talking about Trump threatening to attack Iran nothing to do with Trump
Your double standards are of the scale..You've been caught out just put your hands up instead of writing wind and pish
Click to expand...
I wasn't talking about Trump, I answered your question on Trump. When not fielding various preoccupations aired by others I've only ever been talking about Iran and the Iranians. Go back and check it you dispute that.

It is a pretty damning indictment of where we are now that those preoccupations have dominated the thread despite my frequently expressed frustrations at that.

Its not me being caught out fella, this whole episode is loaded with mask dropping potential for the right on, and so it is proving to be.
 
egb_hibs said:
I wasn't talking about Trump, I answered your question on Trump. When not fielding various preoccupations aired by others I've only ever been talking about Iran and the Iranians. Go back and check it you dispute that.

It is a pretty damning indictment of where we are now that those preoccupations have dominated the thread despite my frequently expressed frustrations at that.

Its not me being caught out fella, this whole episode is loaded with mask dropping potential for the right on, and so it is proving to be.
Click to expand...
Mask dropping indeed
 
Reuters reporting a US attack on Iran 'could be' within next 24hrs....sources include European and Israeli military officials

www.reuters.com

Iran warns of retaliation if Trump strikes, US withdraws some personnel from bases

Two European officials said U.S. military intervention could come in the next 24 hours.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com

edited to better reflect what they are saying rather than what social media is saying about their report
 
Last edited:
gun ainm said:
Reuters reporting a US attack on Iran 'could be' within next 24hrs....sources include European and Israeli military officials

www.reuters.com

Iran warns of retaliation if Trump strikes, US withdraws some personnel from bases

Two European officials said U.S. military intervention could come in the next 24 hours.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com

edited to better reflect what they are saying rather than what social media is saying about their report
Click to expand...
seems us has pulled back slightly from action. Shame for people trump riled up
 
Maybe GBNews might mention it later so all us far rightists on here will know it's true.
 
What has the goings on in Iran got to do with Donald Trumps Amerikkka?

What justification do they have in respect of potentially bombing that country?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
  • Menu
  • Home
  • Hibs Chat
  • New Posts
  • Just Back
  • Chatroom