Inside IS

[gun ainm]

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/inside-islamic-state-crucifixions-severed-heads-indoctrination-1.1900821

documentary from inside the Islamic State - bloody hell

 

[egb_hibs]

Read on the sellc huddleboard - not seen it confirmed - that is have be headed a western journalist. First thought was I hope it wasn't this kid who I read about a few days ago. There's a whole other side story about vice going from hipster magazine to delivering this stuff ahead of the msm.

- - - Updated - - -

Bloody hell is right btw and our kids might have to fight it. Forget anything else about the matter on this thread and imagine Israel (or India) nuclear arsenal falling into the hands of these fellas.

Les see if the enlightened west does any better than Eurooe past who we have been taught to despise when this wolf was constantly at its door.

 

[Tatie]

This lot are MENTAL egb , and need stopped NOW.

 

[Mickey Harp]

'The group covers roughly 35,000 square km.'

The speed of their advance has been frightening. Until May they were allowed to use the Turkish border without question and raised money through extortion and kidnapping.

This is a very real and very frightening situation. Funded by the Gulf and indeed the West. Sickening.

 

[Smurf]

This lot are MENTAL egb , and need stopped NOW.

Agreed. But how?

 

[Kurt]

'The group covers roughly 35,000 square km.'The speed of their advance has been frightening. Until May they were allowed to use the Turkish border without question and raised money through extortion and kidnapping. This is a very real and very frightening situation. Funded by the Gulf and indeed the West. Sickening.

35000 not very populous miles.

 

[egb_hibs]

Agreed. But how?

Iran and Turkey need to step the fuck up here I reckon.

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'The group covers roughly 35,000 square km.'

The speed of their advance has been frightening. Until May they were allowed to use the Turkish border without question and raised money through extortion and kidnapping.

This is a very real and very frightening situation. Funded by the Gulf and indeed the West. Sickening.

Funded by the west? Howzat? Incidentally, all the folk in the west that busy themselves nip nipping away at the foundations of civilisation should be looking at this. This is what it looks like when civilisation falls.

 

[Smurf]

Iran and Turkey need to step the $#@! up here I reckon.

- - - Updated - - -



Funded by the west? Howzat? Incidentally, all the folk in the west that busy themselves nip nipping away at the foundations of civilisation should be looking at this. This is what it looks like when civilisation falls.

Wonder if London and Washington DC still want the Assad regime in Syria to fall....

 

[HappyAsHellas]

It's a learning process I believe - the taliban were quite extreme, but didn't quite pull it off. This lot, who are funded mostly from gulf states are going the extra mile it would seem. But let's all pick on Israel as they're the real nasty ones eh?

 

[gun ainm]

Iran and Turkey need to step the $#@! up here I reckon.

- - - Updated - - -

Funded by the west? Howzat? Incidentally, all the folk in the west that busy themselves nip nipping away at the foundations of civilisation should be looking at this. This is what it looks like when civilisation falls.

did the anti assad money maybe not end up (partially) with these bams?

but c'mon - IS is not a direct consequence of dissidents - its a consequence if anything of a lack of our governments listening to those dissedents. Never had you down as a 'crush all dissent' kinda guy

 

[egb_hibs]

did the anti assad money maybe not end up (partially) with these bams?

ok I understand now, I thought the suggestion was they were being intentionally sponsored

but c'mon - IS is not a direct consequence of dissidents - its a consequence if anything of a lack of our governments listening to those dissedents. Never had you down as a 'crush all dissent' kinda guy

And I don't understand what you mean here?

Are you saying we haven't listened enough to IS?! They don't seem like dialogue kinda guys.

 

[Mickey Harp]

did the anti assad money maybe not end up (partially) with these bams?

ok I understand now, I thought the suggestion...

Yep should have been clearer. The funding of groups linked to the FSA and other anti-regime groups has resulted in this. So many have defected and joined IS.

You also of course have individual scumbags in the Gulf states who are funding the group.

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I see they have now beheaded a US journalist.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28862268

 

[FTJT]

Are you saying we haven't listened enough to IS?! They don't seem like dialogue kinda guys.

No, they don't. But there's maybe an argument that supporting strategically useful dictators (Assad) over the longer term means disembowelling moderate/democratised opposition movements with who soft power relationships can be sustained?

 

[egb_hibs]

Sorry FT I'm having problems parsing posts today, and I wasn't even pissed last night. Are you suggesting there might be an argument for supporting the assads of the world at the expense of democratic opposition to them, or supporting the opposition?

Either way I agree these are the calls that need taken.
We're kind of stuffed either way though - support Assad and the Islamists view is as supporting heretical secularists, support the opposition and we can end up directly helping them while also being accused of crusader imperialism.

The objectives of Islamism have always been pretty clear despite domestic inclinations to _solely_ consider our foreign policy as a cause. They want to reestablish a caliphate and reconquer all lands contained in former caliphates. They are unlikely to be deterred from pursuing that strategy, which is independent of grievances they can exploit due to western actions or attitudes wrt Palestine, iraq, whatever

 

[Mickey Harp]

Sorry FT I'm having problems parsing posts today, and I wasn't even pissed last night. Are you suggesting there might be an argument for supporting the assads of the world at the expense of democratic opposition to them, or supporting the opposition?

Either way I agree these are the calls that need taken.
We're kind of stuffed either way though - support Assad and the Islamists view is as supporting heretical secularists, support the opposition and we can end up directly helping them while also being accused of crusader imperialism.

The objectives of Islamism have always been pretty clear despite domestic inclinations to _solely_ consider our foreign policy as a cause. They want to reestablish a caliphate and reconquer all lands contained in former caliphates. They are unlikely to be deterred from pursuing that strategy, which is independent of grievances they can exploit due to western actions or attitudes wrt Palestine, iraq, whatever

Indeed. They would not stop once they'd reconquered Iberia either.

I often find it amusing how Islamists complain about Western Imperialism when their Caliphate dream (and indeed religion) is itself intrinsically imperialistic.

Oh and I'd have supported Assad above the rebels, given the choice.

 

[FTJT]

Sorry FT I'm having problems parsing posts today, and I wasn't even pissed last night. Are you suggesting there might be an argument for supporting the assads of the world at the expense of democratic opposition to them, or supporting the opposition?

Doesn't even have to be that grandiose a call: influencing existing governments as far as possible to not crush their enemies and, if they're committed to that path, supporting the opposition. But the key point is not allowing our 'allies' to murder their own unimpeded.

The objectives of Islamism have always been pretty clear despite domestic inclinations to _solely_ consider our foreign policy as a cause. They want to reestablish a caliphate and reconquer all lands contained in former caliphates. They are unlikely to be deterred from pursuing that strategy, which is independent of grievances they can exploit due to western actions or attitudes wrt Palestine, iraq, whatever

Islamism is pretty new. Well, no, obviously it's not, but there wasn't much of it about 30 years ago never mind 70. Western foreign policy has brought it into fashion because between Israel, the Shah, the Suez Canal, Iran-Iraq, Iraq, Iraq and more generally our unqualified-yet-transient support for various types of regional monsters, we've put a lot of effort into painting ourselves as enemies of the common man in that part of the world while also drawing the ire of all major factional and governmental leadership in the region. If the US/the West play their cards right on IS they can do a lot to staunch the bleeding by presenting themselves as not totally psychotic to Sunni and Shia alike. A withdrawal of unqualified support for Israel and the Saudis wouldn't hurt either.

 

[Dub]

Sorry FT I'm having problems parsing posts today, and I wasn't even pissed last night. Are you suggesting there might be an argument for supporting the assads of the world at the expense of democratic opposition to them, or supporting the opposition?

Either way I agree these are the calls that need taken.
We're kind of stuffed either way though - support Assad and the Islamists view is as supporting heretical secularists, support the opposition and we can end up directly helping them while also being accused of crusader imperialism.

The objectives of Islamism have always been pretty clear despite domestic inclinations to _solely_ consider our foreign policy as a cause. They want to reestablish a caliphate and reconquer all lands contained in former caliphates. They are unlikely to be deterred from pursuing that strategy, which is independent of grievances they can exploit due to western actions or attitudes wrt Palestine, iraq, whatever

Even when [if] they retake all the lands that they aim to conquer to reinstate a caliphate they wont stop. You have predicted this before though EGBstrodamus, the clear statement that they want to see their flag flying over the white house should send shockwaves through western civilisation as it basically states that they wont stop until the whole world is theirs.

Smurfy asked how the west can stop them - There is sadly only one answer to that and it aint through negotiation.

 

[Smurf]

Even when [if] they retake all the lands that they aim to conquer to reinstate a caliphate they wont stop. You have predicted this before though EGBstrodamus, the clear statement that they want to see their flag flying over the white house should send shockwaves through western civilisation as it basically states that they wont stop until the whole world is theirs.

Smurfy asked how the west can stop them - There is sadly only one answer to that and it aint through negotiation.

Unfortunately some won't accept that and will instead blame the foreign policy of the west as an all too convenient way to duck the issue. However, the aspirations of this lot is absolutely not to stop. And they would kill anyone not with them. Who though is going to stand up to them? Depressed me hearing a guy on Radio 2 this lunchtime blaming foreign policy and how if we just leave them alone they'll live their lives and we'll live ours....

 

[Dub]

Unfortunately some won't accept that and will instead blame the foreign policy of the west as an all too convenient way to duck the issue. However, the aspirations of this lot is absolutely not to stop. And they would kill anyone not with them. Who though is going to stand up to them? Depressed me hearing a guy on Radio 2 this lunchtime blaming foreign policy and how if we just leave them alone they'll live their lives and we'll live ours....

That guy is a dangerous ostrich Kenny. We and most others know that they will absolutely not stop if they have a breathe left in them.

 

[Mickey Harp]

Unfortunately some won't accept that and will instead blame the foreign policy of the west as an all too convenient way to duck the issue. However, the aspirations of this lot is absolutely not to stop. And they would kill anyone not with them. Who though is going to stand up to them? Depressed me hearing a guy on Radio 2 this lunchtime blaming foreign policy and how if we just leave them alone they'll live their lives and we'll live ours....

As Dub said, there will be apologists and those who will use this for their own agenda; namely to blame Western foreign policy. I would consider myself to be left wing and anti-imperialism, but the world cannot stand by as these brainwashed psychopaths embark upon a murderous rampage. This is one instance where I support outside intervention. Some of the Arab countries really need to stand up and be counted.

I look forward to IS meeting Hezbollah. They will get absolutely destroyed

 

[egb_hibs]

Even when [if] they retake all the lands that they aim to conquer to reinstate a caliphate they wont stop. You have predicted this before though EGBstrodamus, the clear statement that they want to see their flag flying over the white house should send shockwaves through western civilisation as it basically states that they wont stop until the whole world is theirs.

Smurfy asked how the west can stop them - There is sadly only one answer to that and it aint through negotiation.

In this case it didn't require much time with a crystal ball Dub; all it required was listening to what they were saying themselves very clearly, for a long time. That and not choosing to ignore that in favour and wanting their cause to be what white western liberals want it to be.

Now IS are busy actually doing it, maybe people will wake up to it and not see these people as hapless dupes incapable of an agenda of their own and only able to react drone-like to what westerners do.

 

[Smurf]

That guy is a dangerous ostrich Kenny. We and most others know that they will absolutely not stop if they have a breathe left in them.

Guy was from Edinburgh. Many on the left are only too happy to use this to score political points over the Iraq invasion 2003.

 

[egb_hibs]

Doesn't even have to be that grandiose a call: influencing existing governments as far as possible to not crush their enemies and, if they're committed to that path, supporting the opposition. But the key point is not allowing our 'allies' to murder their own unimpeded.


Islamism is pretty new. Well, no, obviously it's not, but there wasn't much of it about 30 years ago never mind 70. Western foreign policy has brought it into fashion because between Israel, the Shah, the Suez Canal, Iran-Iraq, Iraq, Iraq and more generally our unqualified-yet-transient support for various types of regional monsters, we've put a lot of effort into painting ourselves as enemies of the common man in that part of the world while also drawing the ire of all major factional and governmental leadership in the region. If the US/the West play their cards right on IS they can do a lot to staunch the bleeding by presenting themselves as not totally psychotic to Sunni and Shia alike. A withdrawal of unqualified support for Israel and the Saudis wouldn't hurt either.

Islamism is not new - it dates to around 2 years of the end of the caliphate as part of the general imperial collapse post ww1. It couldn't actually be much older given its aim is the restoration of said caliphate. The Valois caliphates lasted nearly 1300 years before that - it is the norm and we are living in a thus far short exception. One that stemmed from ww1 and temporary unequivocal western ascendancy in the Industrial Age - including Arab flirtation with political ideologies that came with that age, ie quasi socialism, which at present looks like a historical blip.

 

[southfieldhibby]

Guy was from Edinburgh. Many on the left are only too happy to use this to score political points over the Iraq invasion 2003.

But isn't it correct that ISIS/The Islamic State was borne out of the chaos of post war Iraq?

And it's possible to lay the blame for this whole sorry mess and still be prepared to help go and sort it out.

 

[Mickey Harp]

But isn't it correct that ISIS/The Islamic State was borne out of the chaos of post war Iraq?

And it's possible to lay the blame for this whole sorry mess and still be prepared to help go and sort it out.

Very good point.

I then tried to 'like' your post and realised I had no idea how to do it.

 

[Tatie]

Agreed. But how?

tbh Smurf , I don't think this lot know anything other than violence .

I think it may take the wests physical intervention to sort this situation . Last thing we need is our troops in there but that's what it may / will take im afraid .

 

[egb_hibs]

But isn't it correct that ISIS/The Islamic State was borne out of the chaos of post war Iraq?

And it's possible to lay the blame for this whole sorry mess and still be prepared to help go and sort it out.

It was certainly enabled by the Iraq war and US/UK are responsible for that mess (increasing our obligation to help now IMO). But the ultimate blame is with IS themselves.we can't start the clock at Iraq either given it was a
Misguided response to 9/11 - al qeadas own master plan is proceeding masterfully, whatever inter group rivalries tree now are.
It's succeeded on other fronts to - having inflamed western culture wars
And weakened us internally. From their point of view it's a
stunningly successful plan and period of history

 

[Kurt]

Wonder if London and Washington DC still want the Assad regime in Syria to fall....

Yes. That was very badly called by the west.

 

[Mickey Harp]

Yes. That was very badly called by the west.

And yet the rest of us could all see it.

 

[Smurf]

But isn't it correct that ISIS/The Islamic State was borne out of the chaos of post war Iraq?

And it's possible to lay the blame for this whole sorry mess and still be prepared to help go and sort it out.

I'm sure it could be argued both ways. I personally think the planning for Iraq after Saddam was awful. However, Islamic extremism was on the rise long before Iraq. If the USA and UK were to build a coalition to go into Iraq soon you know and I know there would be huge "Anti war" protests.

 

[egb_hibs]

I don't recall any anti war protests forecasting this sort of thing - the protests were based on other reasons as I recall.

However smurf, I don't think it does go both ways. The Iraq war has unambiguously created the conditions that have allowed this. It didn't cause Islamism but it created the anarchy that allows is to flourish. So to did premature withdrawal from Iraq, so to did the Arab spring.

It's time to at least dust off and consider Cold War real politik. There are hard choices to be made concerning support for democratic movements versus the forces likely to actually prevail. I don't know what the answer should be, but it at least needs evaluated by the better informed (hopefully) in power.

That said, that risks storing up more resentment - it's damned if you do and damned If you don't. Shia vs Sunni hostilities are maybe our best hope sadly.

We also desperately need to try and stop the secularism at gun point enforced by the Turkish army from continuing to unravel.

 

[1 Mcnamara]

At least if they got their caliphate we could send any British Muslims who seem to hate us so much over there. We could pay their fare and remove their passport.
Then with them all in once place, should they continue to behead anyone they don't like, we could nuke them.

Sorted.

 

[Zitellis Heid]

Shit just got even scarier.

Did anyone else note the Mafia/Attempted Communism/Disguised as Socialism, and blatant stealing, in the vid?

This can of worms is now opened on a level NO ONE could have calculated:

Sure, anyone can claim the "Well we shouldn`t have gone in there..." Right down to "Well, Bliar, where were those WMD?" card, and I`ve believed in this very doctrine myself, as is well documented.

But now, right now, we can`t cast asperations of "Not in my name!" Which I subscribed to also.....

This shit is now officially off the radar!

Talk to them? Nah!

Nuke `em? Nah!

What to do when they now officially want EVERY Infidel dead?

Trying to rationalise this situation now, in hindsight, was it always going to happen anyway, or did The West provoke it?, kick the hornet`s nest, if you will, would it have changed the outcome?

Who knows. Time travel is a stunning fantasy.

We are where we are now, and historical cards can never be played again.

It`s now moved on to a level of fear/hatred that we have to deal with. We (Westerners/Europeans) have to address this, but how?

Frankly, I`m officially scared and the blame game is over. Who is the minority now?

Who would be young, or have young, in times like these?

This is not going away. Not a chance.

Choices are now limited, but you have to live life.

The bottle/lamp has been truly activated/opened/rubbed, with no going back.

Ever!

This thread alone is proof that we don`t know the answer, and they are not for listening either.

Thank fuck my/our life is mainly behind us now, as this is going to get uglier than even Poe`s imagination allowed for.

P.S. Tell Southfield I said "Hello"

 

[egb_hibs]

According to sky news the guy who beheaded the journalist is British.

- - - Updated - - -

A few years ago at the book festival I got a late ticket to hear a guy who'd written a book about al Qaeda. I didn't know anything about the chap and was initially thinking so far, so liberal middle class talking to each other, as the guy was applauded for ripping bush and Blair a new one, plus the neocons the wars etc. However, it all turned on its head when somebody asked the guy what he would say to bin laden if sat across from him. He said 'I wouldn't say anything, I'd kill him". Cue shocked hush. Turned out he was a a former CIA analyst of bin laden and was opposing the wars from a pull-up the draw bridge and leave the feckers too it perspective, rather than a peacenik one.

Anyway, afterwards the person I was with was getting his book signed, and I said to the bloke; your approach might be fine for America but what about us here in Europe? He stopped signing books, looked me straight in the eye, have me a rueful smile, and said; you guys are already screwed.

- - - Updated - - -

In France 15% of people view is favourably, 27% of the under 25s. They are a few years away - by some estimates - from Muslim young men of fighting age outnumbering non Muslim peers in some of the major cities. Those populations are North African and rather different politically than British Pakistanis, Bangladeshis etc - a mere 7% of Britons have a soft spot for the beheaders. These are the quenelle and sieg heil blokes that have Jews leaving France in droves.

On the other side of the fence they have rising fascism and traditionalist Catholics, who are, ahem, not very 'Francis I' in disposition, breeding like billy-oh as the left bank types self-extinguish in a puff of gitannes and no children. For them I fear it's already too late.

http://rt.com/news/181076-isis-islam-militans-france/

Sleep well Z

Ps my survey is from Russia today so it could well be bollocks, let's hope so

 

[Jack]

While wars, of all sorts, continue the arms industries will make billions $ and roubles.

Anyone like to hazard a guess about a link between the smug arms industries and the outraged media?

 

[egb_hibs]

Comforting anti-war slogans will not keep us warm much longer J.

 

[Mickey Harp]

At least if they got their caliphate we could send any British Muslims who seem to hate us so much over there. We could pay their fare and remove their passport.
Then with them all in once place, should they continue to behead anyone they don't like, we could nuke them.

Sorted.

I'm glad you're trolling. Before I read the last sentence, I was worried you were serious.

- - - Updated - - -

According to sky news the guy who beheaded the journalist is British.

- - - Updated - - -

A few years ago at the book festival I got a late ticket to hear a guy who'd written a book about al Qaeda. I didn't know anything about the chap and was initially thinking so far, so liberal middle class talking to each other, as the guy was applauded for ripping bush and Blair a new one, plus the neocons the wars etc. However, it all turned on its head when somebody asked the guy what he would say to bin laden if sat across from him. He said 'I wouldn't say anything, I'd kill him". Cue shocked hush. Turned out he was a a former CIA analyst of bin laden and was opposing the wars from a pull-up the draw bridge and leave the feckers too it perspective, rather than a peacenik one.

Anyway, afterwards the person I was with was getting his book signed, and I said to the bloke; your approach might be fine for America but what about us here in Europe? He stopped signing books, looked me straight in the eye, have me a rueful smile, and said; you guys are already screwed.

- - - Updated - - -

In France 15% of people view is favourably, 27% of the under 25s. They are a few years away - by some estimates - from Muslim young men of fighting age outnumbering non Muslim peers in some of the major cities. Those populations are North African and rather different politically than British Pakistanis, Bangladeshis etc - a mere 7% of Britons have a soft spot for the beheaders. These are the quenelle and sieg heil blokes that have Jews leaving France in droves.

On the other side of the fence they have rising fascism and traditionalist Catholics, who are, ahem, not very 'Francis I' in disposition, breeding like billy-oh as the left bank types self-extinguish in a puff of gitannes and no children. For them I fear it's already too late.

http://rt.com/news/181076-isis-islam-militans-france/

Sleep well Z

Ps my survey is from Russia today so it could well be bollocks, let's hope so

Interesting read. France's social problems are a massive concern.

 

[Smurf]

According to sky news the guy who beheaded the journalist is British.

- - - Updated - - -

A few years ago at the book festival I got a late ticket to hear a guy who'd written a book about al Qaeda. I didn't know anything about the chap and was initially thinking so far, so liberal middle class talking to each other, as the guy was applauded for ripping bush and Blair a new one, plus the neocons the wars etc. However, it all turned on its head when somebody asked the guy what he would say to bin laden if sat across from him. He said 'I wouldn't say anything, I'd kill him". Cue shocked hush. Turned out he was a a former CIA analyst of bin laden and was opposing the wars from a pull-up the draw bridge and leave the feckers too it perspective, rather than a peacenik one.

Anyway, afterwards the person I was with was getting his book signed, and I said to the bloke; your approach might be fine for America but what about us here in Europe? He stopped signing books, looked me straight in the eye, have me a rueful smile, and said; you guys are already screwed.

- - - Updated - - -

In France 15% of people view is favourably, 27% of the under 25s. They are a few years away - by some estimates - from Muslim young men of fighting age outnumbering non Muslim peers in some of the major cities. Those populations are North African and rather different politically than British Pakistanis, Bangladeshis etc - a mere 7% of Britons have a soft spot for the beheaders. These are the quenelle and sieg heil blokes that have Jews leaving France in droves.

On the other side of the fence they have rising fascism and traditionalist Catholics, who are, ahem, not very 'Francis I' in disposition, breeding like billy-oh as the left bank types self-extinguish in a puff of gitannes and no children. For them I fear it's already too late.

http://rt.com/news/181076-isis-islam-militans-france/

Sleep well Z

Ps my survey is from Russia today so it could well be bollocks, let's hope so

Fascinating post M. It's a pity that these things can't be discussed honestly without being accused of all sorts.

 

[Jack]

Comforting anti-war slogans will not keep us warm much longer J.

It wasn't meant to be anti war.

Wars have there place.

But I can only think of one group of people who aren't unhappy at the way things are going and it just so happens these same people have a huge influence on all governments.

And despite assurances it would seem arms are being traded, with governments approval, to all and sundry.

- - - Updated - - -

Not that that's anything new.

 

[egb_hibs]

Politician correctness may be the death of us K, exactly as the frankfurt school intended