Indoctrination in schools

[egb_hibs]

Yup it does happen. It's just more like this than the examples regularly given - which are more often than not levers for proponents of this sort of things to stamp out any opposition;

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/educatio...er-none-of-my-friends-are-teenage-Tories.html

What should be done about this sort of thing; which is doubly bad in that, even to take at face value the most fevered concerns of those who oppose diversity in education, there is no choice here as there is in selecting,say, a COE education.

And when its backed up by an unaccountable media monopoly - well, you have to join the dots on the paucity of intellectual life here vs France or the US to give two very different examples.

Lamentable, really.

 

[Jack]

celtc, hahahearts and now the young pup torys playing the victimisation card.

Where will it end? The decriminalization of drugs?

 

[Kurt]

Yup it does happen. It's just more like this than the examples regularly given - which are more often than not levers for proponents of this sort of things to stamp out any opposition;

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/educatio...er-none-of-my-friends-are-teenage-Tories.html

What should be done about this sort of thing; which is doubly bad in that, even to take at face value the most fevered concerns of those who oppose diversity in education, there is no choice here as there is in selecting,say, a COE education.

And when its backed up by an unaccountable media monopoly - well, you have to join the dots on the paucity of intellectual life here vs France or the US to give two very different examples.

Lamentable, really.

Not sure how much I believe it. Young people who live a dependent life in the family are more likely to see their life experience mirrored in a socialist ideology that a capitalist one. Its part of the presentational challenge for capitalists to get their message over to this age group. I agree, though, that in school kids should be learning to think for themselves in a sophisticated way rather than being required to memorise the teacher's selective version of the facts.

 

[Nex]

How much Scottish literature is taught in Scottish schools, how much Scottish history is taught in Scottish schools, how much Scots language.

There has been indoctrination going on in Scottish schools for a good few hundred years now.

 

[mikeythibs]

How much Scottish literature is taught in Scottish schools, how much Scottish history is taught in Scottish schools, how much Scots language.

There has been indoctrination going on in Scottish schools for a good few hundred years now.

Go on then, tell us? Do you actually know? Be careful now though, there's folk on here who will know

 

[egb_hibs]

Not sure how much I believe it. Young people who live a dependent life in the family are more likely to see their life experience mirrored in a socialist ideology that a capitalist one. Its part of the presentational challenge for capitalists to get their message over to this age group. I agree, though, that in school kids should be learning to think for themselves in a sophisticated way rather than being required to memorise the teacher's selective version of the facts.

There is an endless litany of similar tales. It's been a while since I was a schooly but I've experienced similar at university night classes.

Schools and universities are an ideal ground for socialism to flourish, especially the latter; tenured professionals get to lecture to admiring subordinates while not having to worry about the realities of running things - how could any other view be popular! It's also, as you imply, the easier sell to the young being based on simple emotional appeal and attractive to youthful vanity in that phase where we all believe we are the first generation to see the light. Alternatives which actually make workable accommodations with reality are more complex, and require more life experience to grasp. As such kids are susceptible and all too often that is taken advantage of by left wing pedagogues.

 

[Beagle]

Go on then, tell us? Do you actually know? Be careful now though, there's folk on here who will know

I can tell you there was zero Scottish history etc when I was at school. The state (as in UK) decided what was relevant. We learned nothing about the last military battle fought on British soil or the events surrounding it. Can you imagine the reaction from those of the bigoted sectarian view of life if they found out the real truth about the events surrounding the 1690 events in Ireland? Their heads would explode and successive British governments want to keep it that way because, as Churchill himself put it, 'Keep the Protestants and Catholics at each others throats and they'll be too busy with their hatred to watch what the establishment are doing.'

 

[Kurt]

There is an endless litany of similar tales. It's been a while since I was a schooly but I've experienced similar at university night classes.

I remember a few Nationalist teachers at school who seemed to spend a lot of time ramming their opinions on independence down everyone's throats.

 

[egb_hibs]

I can tell you there was zero Scottish history etc when I was at school. The state (as in UK) decided what was relevant. We learned nothing about the last military battle fought on British soil or the events surrounding it. Can you imagine the reaction from those of the bigoted sectarian view of life if they found out the real truth about the events surrounding the 1690 events in Ireland? Their heads would explode and successive British governments want to keep it that way because, as Churchill himself put it, 'Keep the Protestants and Catholics at each others throats and they'll be too busy with their hatred to watch what the establishment are doing.'

I've googled that churchill quotation and can find nothing. Is that the actual wording?

- - - Updated - - -

I remember a few Nationalist teachers at school who seemed to spend a lot of time ramming their opinions on independence down everyone's throats.

Yup, sure's theres more of that going on. Gove's free schools seem to me to be the best option for providing children who cannot afford independent schools, a chance to escape bankrupt educationalist dogma and politicised didacts. The damage these people have done to social mobility is incalculable. No wonder they're fighting tooth and nail to maintain their monopoly.

 

[Kurt]

I can tell you there was zero Scottish history etc when I was at school. The state (as in UK) decided what was relevant. We learned nothing about the last military battle fought on British soil or the events surrounding it. Can you imagine the reaction from those of the bigoted sectarian view of life if they found out the real truth about the events surrounding the 1690 events in Ireland? Their heads would explode and successive British governments want to keep it that way because, as Churchill himself put it, 'Keep the Protestants and Catholics at each others throats and they'll be too busy with their hatred to watch what the establishment are doing.'

I did loads of Scottish history at school including Culloden and the aftermath. In fact, I only recently learned about the English Kings and Queens via have a child at school in England.

 

[Hampden_Hibby]

I can tell you there was zero Scottish history etc when I was at school. The state (as in UK) decided what was relevant. We learned nothing about the last military battle fought on British soil or the events surrounding it. Can you imagine the reaction from those of the bigoted sectarian view of life if they found out the real truth about the events surrounding the 1690 events in Ireland? Their heads would explode and successive British governments want to keep it that way because, as Churchill himself put it, 'Keep the Protestants and Catholics at each others throats and they'll be too busy with their hatred to watch what the establishment are doing.'

And they told us absolutely nothing about the 1820 insurrection - incredible.

 

[Beagle]

I've googled that churchill quotation and can find nothing. Is that the actual wording?

- - - Updated - - -



Yup, sure's theres more of that going on. Gove's free schools seem to me to be the best option for providing children who cannot afford independent schools, a chance to escape bankrupt educationalist dogma and politicised didacts. The damage these people have done to social mobility is incalculable. No wonder they're fighting tooth and nail to maintain their monopoly.

I'm using this diddy keyboard on ma phone just now as I'm on holybags Eegie, once I'm back in Schottland I'll update you where I got that from

 

[hibs1986]

I can tell you there was zero Scottish history etc when I was at school. The state (as in UK) decided what was relevant. We learned nothing about the last military battle fought on British soil or the events surrounding it. Can you imagine the reaction from those of the bigoted sectarian view of life if they found out the real truth about the events surrounding the 1690 events in Ireland? Their heads would explode and successive British governments want to keep it that way because, as Churchill himself put it, 'Keep the Protestants and Catholics at each others throats and they'll be too busy with their hatred to watch what the establishment are doing.'

I'm think we can blame Westminster for this one - AFAIK the Scottish curriculum has always been the responsibility of either the Scottish Office or, since devolution, the Scottish Executive / Parliament, and completely separate from the English curriculum. Any shortage here is our own fault, I think.

 

[Beagle]

I'm think we can blame Westminster for this one - AFAIK the Scottish curriculum has always been the responsibility of either the Scottish Office or, since devolution, the Scottish Executive / Parliament, and completely separate from the English curriculum. Any shortage here is our own fault, I think.

The Scottish Office = puppets of Westminster.
I can't speak for modern teaching as it was 33 years since I left school

 

[Nex]

When I was at school, I'm only 27 so nae that long ago, we did no Scottish literature, very limited Scottish history, maybe 2 or 3 terms worth of directly Scottish stuff out of 13 years worth of classes (I took history all the way through school).

As for Scots language, the only time Scots was ever mentioned in school was when a German teacher while she was explaining "der, die, das" and how "die" was also used as a plural pronoun. She said that a good example of this would be how a group of people is still just "you" in English, while in Scots it would be "yous".

And the whole drive for only "propper" english to be used in schools, the stamping out of gaelic and the creation of the lie that Scots is just "bad english". While as mentioned Scottish education was never directly governed by London it is safe to say that those in charge who pushed through the treaty of union despite massed public opposition were more than happy to push these educational changes.

 

[egb_hibs]

When I was at school, I'm only 27 so nae that long ago, we did no Scottish literature, very limited Scottish history, maybe 2 or 3 terms worth of directly Scottish stuff out of 13 years worth of classes (I took history all the way through school).

As for Scots language, the only time Scots was ever mentioned in school was when a German teacher while she was explaining "der, die, das" and how "die" was also used as a plural pronoun. She said that a good example of this would be how a group of people is still just "you" in English, while in Scots it would be "yous".

And the whole drive for only "propper" english to be used in schools, the stamping out of gaelic and the creation of the lie that Scots is just "bad english". While as mentioned Scottish education was never directly governed by London it is safe to say that those in charge who pushed through the treaty of union despite massed public opposition were more than happy to push these educational changes.

all I can remember of school history is being bored rigid having the plight of pre revolutionary Russians drummed into me. Why this subject was so important we can only speculate.

 

[vasco de gama]

I'm guessing that the majority of us went to Scottish schools and by default had teachers more likely to be from traditionally 'left wing' backgrounds. I do remember my high school being on the whole a collection of male socialists particularly in the English, Modern Studies and History departments.

Did it influence the kids? Sure to an extent, but I'm guessing about as much as the other main adults in the kids lives at the time e.g. Adam Ant, Toyah, Gary Numan, Morrissey etc. Kids are attracted to socialism in my view because it is SUPPOSED to be about caring and being given an equal chance etc and that is the main message 95% of us had pumped into us since birth.

To an extent I couldn't really care a crap what History / Politics my kids get taught at school as long as the teaching encourages and develops their ability to think for themselves and seek out primary sources for making an opinion. Sadly most schools aren't very good at doing that latter either! That is my main gripe with the education systems.

 

[SKII]

To an extent I couldn't really care a crap what History / Politics my kids get taught at school as long as the teaching encourages and develops their ability to think for themselves and seek out primary sources for making an opinion. Sadly most schools aren't very good at doing that latter either! That is my main gripe with the education systems.

The current SQA exams absolutely demand young people have to demonstrate keen Enquiry Skills - it is just as important as demonstrating Knowledge and Understanding and is a key part of the History and Modern Studies courses and exams.

All history pupils these days are expected to know and evaluate whether something is from a primary or secondary source, look for bias or the potential for bias or exaggeration and be able to come to conclusions about the reliability and validity of historical evidence or reports. They are expected to develop these skills and over the course of their studies and are examined on it in the final exams. In Modern Studies the skill they focus on is Decision Making.

There are 6 components to Enquiry Skills in National 4 and National 5 courses

ES1 - Evaluating a source

ES2 - Comparing sources

ES3 - Identifying the authors' attitude

ES4 - Putting information into context

ES5 + ES6 - Recording information and presenting conclusions

I've had a wee chuckle looking at some of the above responses on this thread in relation to the above.



FWIW I've a lot more current information (primary and secondary sources ) about many of the issues raised above and I will endeavour to come back to them later - I need my kip before KO time

 

[West Lothian Hibee]

The current SQA exams absolutely demand young people have to demonstrate keen Enquiry Skills - it is just as important as demonstrating Knowledge and Understanding and is a key part of the History and Modern Studies courses and exams.

All history pupils these days are expected to know and evaluate whether something is from a primary or secondary source, look for bias or the potential for bias or exaggeration and be able to come to conclusions about the reliability and validity of historical evidence or reports. They are expected to develop these skills and over the course of their studies and are examined on it in the final exams. In Modern Studies the skill they focus on is Decision Making.

There are 6 components to Enquiry Skills in National 4 and National 5 courses

ES1 - Evaluating a source

ES2 - Comparing sources

ES3 - Identifying the authors' attitude

ES4 - Putting information into context

ES5 + ES6 - Recording information and presenting conclusions

This.

 

[Purple & Green]

all I can remember of school history is being bored rigid having the plight of pre revolutionary Russians drummed into me. Why this subject was so important we can only speculate.

Same for me - at primary we did extensive local and Scottish national history which completely disappeared in high school and I was bored rigid for two years about non Scottish events. Maybe why I'm such a nationalist now - it made me seek out Scottish history in my late teens and onwards.

 

[mikeythibs]

I did loads of Scottish history at school including Culloden and the aftermath. In fact, I only recently learned about the English Kings and Queens via have a child at school in England.

Me too. At primary we did William Wallace and Robert Bruce and were taken to Bannockburn where it was snowing and we all ended up chucking snowballs instead of paying too much heed. We did both Jacobite rebellions and Culloden and the lead up to it in lots of detail. Lots about the Highland clearances. We did the Celts too.

We all had to do the Burns Federation stuff every year whether we wanted to or not. still can recite To a moose to this day never mind ye've hurt yer finger poor wee man yer pinky dearie me. I've got gold and red coloured certificates somewhere as the evidence and we had to do the writing exams too. The exams on the Lowland Scots language and what it all meant. At secondary I had to read Lewis Grasic Gibbon and books about the NE of Scotland that, to be honest, were dull compared to the Steinbeck or the other world literature we read.

In music our teacher seemed to be Corries daft. She told us FoS was going to be the national anthem one day and we needed to learn it. We were taught it over and over again along with Roses of Prince Charlie and other tunes.

My school history at primary was probably 70% Scots with a big of Romans and Egyptians thrown in. Looking back now I reckon I had a raging nationalist as a teacher

I know nothing of the English system or British history other than the 20th century world events like the WWs. Maybe a bit about the industrial revolution which affected us all. At secondary it was mostly WWI and then the rise of Hitler that led to WWII and then the Cold War. All global stuff. I think our older kids should be taught about the big issues in the world they live in today. Knowing about Bannockburn is not going to help them understand what has shaped the economy or the EU they live in now and have to try and compete in.

To me this all just looks like everyone has had a different experience based on the time they were at school and it also looks like there is some degree of choice in what parts of history teachers can teach? Maybe someone who actually knows can confirm?

 

[Kurt]

Me too. At primary we did William Wallace and Robert Bruce and were taken to Bannockburn where it was snowing and we all ended up chucking snowballs instead of paying too much heed. We did both Jacobite rebellions and Culloden and the lead up to it in lots of detail. Lots about the Highland clearances. We did the Celts too.

We all had to do the Burns Federation stuff every year whether we wanted to or not. still can recite To a moose to this day never mind ye've hurt yer finger poor wee man yer pinky dearie me. I've got gold and red coloured certificates somewhere as the evidence and we had to do the writing exams too. The exams on the Lowland Scots language and what it all meant. At secondary I had to read Lewis Grasic Gibbon and books about the NE of Scotland that, to be honest, were dull compared to the Steinbeck or the other world literature we read.

In music our teacher seemed to be Corries daft. She told us FoS was going to be the national anthem one day and we needed to learn it. We were taught it over and over again along with Roses of Prince Charlie and other tunes.

My school history at primary was probably 70% Scots with a big of Romans and Egyptians thrown in. Looking back now I reckon I had a raging nationalist as a teacher

I know nothing of the English system or British history other than the 20th century world events like the WWs. Maybe a bit about the industrial revolution which affected us all. At secondary it was mostly WWI and then the rise of Hitler that led to WWII and then the Cold War. All global stuff. I think our older kids should be taught about the big issues in the world they live in today. Knowing about Bannockburn is not going to help them understand what has shaped the economy or the EU they live in now and have to try and compete in.

To me this all just looks like everyone has had a different experience based on the time they were at school and it also looks like there is some degree of choice in what parts of history teachers can teach? Maybe someone who actually knows can confirm?

We did the burns stuff in primary. It was a school recitation competition. I was rubbish but my sister won it every year - not bad for a Yorkshire lass!! My wee boy knows To a Haggis and recited it in class to some rather confused Londoners!!!

 

[vasco de gama]

The current SQA exams absolutely demand young people have to demonstrate keen Enquiry Skills - it is just as important as demonstrating Knowledge and Understanding and is a key part of the History and Modern Studies courses and exams.

All history pupils these days are expected to know and evaluate whether something is from a primary or secondary source, look for bias or the potential for bias or exaggeration and be able to come to conclusions about the reliability and validity of historical evidence or reports. They are expected to develop these skills and over the course of their studies and are examined on it in the final exams. In Modern Studies the skill they focus on is Decision Making.

There are 6 components to Enquiry Skills in National 4 and National 5 courses

ES1 - Evaluating a source

ES2 - Comparing sources

ES3 - Identifying the authors' attitude

ES4 - Putting information into context

ES5 + ES6 - Recording information and presenting conclusions

I've had a wee chuckle looking at some of the above responses on this thread in relation to the above.



FWIW I've a lot more current information (primary and secondary sources ) about many of the issues raised above and I will endeavour to come back to them later - I need my kip before KO time

Glad to see that's what the curriculum aims at and as you say the exam at the end in theory demands.

I note someone else has listed all the 'Scottish" stuff they did at Primary School - it sounds pretty much the same as what I did both as a pupil in the 1970s and as a Primary school teacher 30 years later. Of course the issue as I see it is not what topics you are covering but what skills you are learning (this obviously applies more to the academic Arts courses than say if you are doing Chemistry or Maths but there is still an element of core thinking and research skills needed in subjects like that and I suppose in pure Arts like Music, PE and Drama) - hence it doesn't matter if you do 'The Romans' and 'The Egyptians' as your 2 main topics in History or if you do 'The Vikings' and 'The Jacobites'. Just as it doesn't matter if in Painting you study the works of Matisse, Leonardo Da Vinci or Alaisdair Gray or in Drama you do Brecht, Lochead or Woodhouse.

 

[vasco de gama]

all I can remember of school history is being bored rigid having the plight of pre revolutionary Russians drummed into me. Why this subject was so important we can only speculate.

I think I've made my current view on this quite clear on my other posts but I would say there's very little important about the plight of pre revolutionary Russians for you or any other kids in a Scottish school. However is there really anything specific that warrants being drummed into a kid in terms of history if what we are trying to do is teach children to be free and effective thinkers and do-ers in the world? That's a genuine question because with things like Citizen Tests and I believe a new show you guys are getting called 'I Love My Country' then maybe there are key things we HAVE to know?

In terms of learning 'your own' history I do see it as important but as the OP alludes to there is little chance of a state (or private) organised system from providing a curriculum that provides an unbiased history. Therefore if we can teach our kids how to find things out they are more likely surely to find a more balanced historical picture? Of course we encounter the problems of finding sources that are now skewered in favour of one particular view or another but as SKII points out the system is supposed to educate the kids against the danger of only ever consulting, for instance, Pravda, as your source of information.

I do believe it is very important to learn things like the horrors of genocide and the myriad fake reasons dictators and their ilk give for carrying out a genocide but we have so many examples from history that it seems kinda arbitrary to pick one over the other- and in 2013 I think that possibly even applies to the genocides carried out in WW2 (cos we know it wasn't just the Jews who were slaughtered and we know if wasn't just the Nazi's that carried out genocide during that particular conflict). Similarly its important to learn about things like economic history and concepts but again is there a need for us to specifically learn about say the UK Industrial revolution or the US Stock Market Crash of the 1920s as opposed to say the recent credit crisis or the failed attempts of the Soviets 5 year plans? But I guess with these 2 examples; genocide and economics I'm already straying into the difficult territory of how the feck does a society decide what concepts, if any, its children should be taught or should we just equip them with core skils i.e. reading, writing and arithmetic (and the research skills I've alluded to) and leave the rest to them?

 

[SKII]

Glad to see that's what the curriculum aims at and as you say the exam at the end in theory demands.

I note someone else has listed all the 'Scottish" stuff they did at Primary School - it sounds pretty much the same as what I did both as a pupil in the 1970s and as a Primary school teacher 30 years later. Of course the issue as I see it is not what topics you are covering but what skills you are learning (this obviously applies more to the academic Arts courses than say if you are doing Chemistry or Maths but there is still an element of core thinking and research skills needed in subjects like that and I suppose in pure Arts like Music, PE and Drama) - hence it doesn't matter if you do 'The Romans' and 'The Egyptians' as your 2 main topics in History or if you do 'The Vikings' and 'The Jacobites'. Just as it doesn't matter if in Painting you study the works of Matisse, Leonardo Da Vinci or Alaisdair Gray or in Drama you do Brecht, Lochead or Woodhouse.

There's no "in theory" about it. If they cannot evaluate sources and make arguments for and against evidence they will not pass the courses. The ES component of the exam/course HAS to be passed. You can't just pass the exam through doing very well in KU. My eldest sat both Higher Mod Studs and History within the last 2 years and I was very impressed with the demands the courses made of him in terms of enquiry skills. I think it was Wee162 who said on here that Mod Studs should be compulsory for all pupils and I have to say, given how much my own son learned and now knows about various aspects of voting systems, political systems around the world (he specialised in Health and Wealth in South Africa and Health and Wealth in the USA) I have to concur. I have no worries about his ability to make his own deliberations in elections or referendums in fact I'd say he is very well placed to make up his own mind from an informed position.


The Curriculum for Excellence is all about developing skills, becoming independent learners and thinkers. The kids need a lot of support in making that leap (and, it has to be said, so do parents) but it has been identified as a crucial aspect of taking Scotland forward as a nation. Developing resilience, reflective practice, reasoning and resourcefulness underpin everything and many schools are now using the 5Rs.

L2L is an initiative that is being used widespread in Scottish schools. Not sure if you're aware but here is the link to their blog

http://starcatl2l.edublogs.org/


Also, it is not just the social subjects where "skills" are a focus. It is every bit as important in other subjects. The sciences and maths have PS components (Problem solving) which again HAVE to be passed. For example, the new chemistry Higher this year had an open question in it that went something like "Using your knowledge of chemistry discuss the bonding in chocolate". The kids are not taught anything about the chemistry of chocolate at any point in proceedings and nobody bar the SQA knew that question would even come up. The kids had to use what they knew of the chemical components that would likely be in chocolate and then work out what might be a sensible answer. It throws a lot of kids ("But I wasn't taught anything about chocolate") but it absolutely challenges them to demonstrate they are proper chemists, not just someone who has memorised a range of facts.

It's also a million miles from the rote learning Mr Gove covets :hmmm

 

[vasco de gama]

Also, it is not just the social subjects where "skills" are a focus. It is every bit as important in other subjects. The sciences and maths have PS components (Problem solving) which again HAVE to be passed. For example, the new chemistry Higher this year had an open question in it that went something like "Using your knowledge of chemistry discuss the bonding in chocolate". The kids are not taught anything about the chemistry of chocolate at any point in proceedings and nobody bar the SQA knew that question would even come up. The kids had to use what they knew of the chemical components that would likely be in chocolate and then work out what might be a sensible answer. It throws a lot of kids ("But I wasn't taught anything about chocolate") but it absolutely challenges them to demonstrate they are proper chemists, not just someone who has memorised a range of facts.

That's a really great sounding example. Reckon there should have been a bonus 5% given to any kid that even took on the challenge of that kind of question.

I think somewhere in my reply to EGB I allude to the risk that we may revert to Rote learning without adding in the ability to think and research if we get too tied-up in worrying whether the topics covered show a political / cultural bias.

BTW I used the word 'in theory' because I'm too distanced to know if in practice the exam boards really are managing to uphold these standards - the news feeds I get tend to hint at Boards pressured into passing students at any cost and schools/ parents challenging any low or failing grades that are issued. Don't know if that really is true or not.

 

[SKII]

That's a really great sounding example. Reckon there should have been a bonus 5% given to any kid that even took on the challenge of that kind of question.

Nope, just 3 marks for making 6 appropriate and coherent statements

I think somewhere in my reply to EGB I allude to the risk that we may revert to Rote learning without adding in the ability to think and research if we get too tied-up in worrying whether the topics covered show a political / cultural bias.

England is heading straight back to the 1970s, in the fast lane. Facts, facts and more facts. Rote, rote, rote. I don't think there has been any point in educational history where the respective nations have been headed in such opposite directions. Even NI and Wales are now heading in their own direction such are their own concerns about what is going on down south. Unprecedented.

BTW I used the word 'in theory' because I'm too distanced to know if in practice the exam boards really are managing to uphold these standards - the news feeds I get tend to hint at Boards pressured into passing students at any cost and schools/ parents challenging any low or failing grades that are issued. Don't know if that really is true or not.

We still only have one exam board and in Scotland exam appeals are out the window. I think you are probably getting English school newsfeed. Their exam results have increased year on year and are under constant scrutiny due to private companies setting different exam papers and each local authority buying in what paper suits them best. No such process here. Everyone from Ullapool to Dumfries sit the same papers on the same day at the same time. No appeals any more.

Whilst the total number of kids leaving school with qualifications (of some description) has gone up in Scotland the numbers getting good National Level 5s the end of 4th year are still pretty much in line with the numbers getting A passes in O Grades in the past. We just have a wider range of levels of exams for kids to sit - so kids can experience some success at their own level. The difficulty for the lay person or the wider community is understanding what all the new fangled levels actually mean And the media are goddamned awful at reporting it adequately.